Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X][M] Ask Cai Renxiang to put it up for auction
[X] Go with Zhengui and help him build his breakthrough nest on your own.

Not much to say about this one.

"I have also instructed the head of the Cai families archive to search out arts which may suit your inclinations. That may take some time to complete, and the results will be limited… I may only take so much of the head archivist's time and resources."
After I looked at this a second time, I realized something. This doesn't say that the archivist was instructed to locate an art within the archives themselves. It just says to "search them out" without specifying. However, given that it's the head archivist and time and resources were raised as limiting factors for results, I think it's more than just handing out arts in their archives, which you'd expect wouldn't take that long, and could be delegated to subordinates.

I suspect that Renxiang made a formal request for the head archivist to expand the Cai clan's art selection, in order to turn around and gift them to Ling Qi. Which is kind of a big deal, and explains why the head archivist would be involved, it would take awhile, and resources would bound results.
 
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[X] Invite Xuan Shi to help you with building his breakthough nest. Surely his knowledge will improve it
[X][M] Ask Cai Renxiang to put it up for auction
 
[X][M] Ask Cai Renxiang to put it up for auction
[X] Go with Zhengui and help him build his breakthrough nest on your own.

Not sure this is the right way to make contact with Xuan Shi, so since Xiulan is unpopular for this I'll go with this.
 
[X] Invite Xuan Shi to help you with building his breakthough nest. Surely his knowledge will improve it
[X][M] Ask Cai Renxiang to put it up for auction
 
[X][M] Ask Cai Renxiang to put it up for auction
[X] Invite Xuan Shi to help you with building his breakthough nest. Surely his knowledge will improve it
 
I will note that this is partly in jest, partly because we picked the Hidden Moon as our second patron, but don't have any arts which would enhance our ability to fulfill the Hidden Moon's desire for learning.

I.e. the Serious part is that we do need a Perception art(AM is hardly one, its just psych shields), Hidden Moon is good for a number of Divination arts for pulling knowledge out of nothing and Cai DID affirm that our role is spymistress, which while not exactly optimal to personally infiltrate, does want the ability to verify information obtained.
Our Moon arts are currently:
-FVM - Grinning Moon
-SCS - Grinning Moon
-PLR - Dreaming Moon

This is not a super urgent or critical task, but if we take a Moon as a patron it is actually quite useful to our cultivation to trigger their bonus as often as possible, rather than continuing to lean on the Grinning Moon's bonus alone with Hidden Moon bonus as a random drop.
Academics being linked to it is not important. Its not even really nice(really nice would be an Occult based one so we can Spirit even more)
Divination of the present or future is not something I think fits a support bardic character, which is what Ling Qi is. That's how she's been designed and as she's acted so far her Hidden Moon association is her weakest, with a tilt towards hiding her own secrets via the non-existence of Darkness. The twist there is that she's not very information conscious or particularly good at noticing the intrigues. As she is built divination doesn't really scream a strong relation to her character as of now, only intersecting briefly because of moon association.

Now, going further and approaching it from the direction of bardic qualities instead of divination itself you can find the skald or fili in history. Chronicler-wanderers famed as oracles of the past, who carried with them stories and old secrets from the long gone ancestors. Stuff like Beowolf. Divination of the past fits a chronicler-wanderer who recounts heroic deeds(a bard/skald), and could ferret out secrets via finding the past or old stories. Of course Ling Qi isn't exactly a wanderer per se, and is in fact very sedentary in her thinking what with Home as a domain and the interpretation of Home as a static ideal of specific places. (look to how she considers specific places homes, like Tonghou and The Sect).

A storyteller regaling her family with old tales she finds and secrets is a better fit to that. The question then of course is how she receives these stories if she never leaves her home. A simple answer is they are told to her by travelers who pass by, but do not enter her doorstep. Either way it is something new to add, which is fine with me. It doesn't carry as much focus on support, so I wouldn't expect the concept to translate well to helping others directly, except in the sense of applied information and "cursing"(another fili and skald thing) or otherwise harming enemies with their secrets. The second part in particular fits the "and then we made the enemy's day hell" part of our methodology.

So you can string together a thematic connection to who Ling Qi is, but you have to take a few steps to get there.
 
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Now, going further and approaching it from the direction of bardic qualities instead of divination itself you can find the skald or fili in history. Chronicler-wanderers famed as oracles of the past, who carried with them stories and old secrets from the long gone ancestors. Stuff like Beowolf. Divination of the past fits a chronicler-wanderer who recounts heroic deeds(a bard/skald), and could ferret out secrets via finding the past or old stories. Of course Ling Qi isn't exactly a wanderer per se, and is in fact very sedentary in her thinking what with Home as a domain and the interpretation of Home as a static ideal of specific places. (look to how she considers specific places homes, like Tonghou and The Sect).

A storyteller regaling her family with old tales she finds and secrets is a better fit to that. The question then of course is how she receives these stories if she never leaves her home. A simple answer is they are told to her by travelers who pass by, but do not enter her doorstep. Either way it is something new to add, which is fine with me. It doesn't carry as much focus on support, so I wouldn't expect the concept to translate well to helping others directly, except in the sense of applied information and "cursing"(another fili and skald thing) or otherwise harming enemies with their secrets. The second part in particular fits the "and then we made the enemy's day hell" part of our methodology.

So you can string together a thematic connection to who Ling Qi is, but you have to take a few steps to get there.
I mean, we can string it along to be more support by using the stories and songs to impart valuable lessons and wisdom from ages long since past. Teaching the failures of the ones who came before so that those failures can be avoided in the present.

In that way, we can gather information from the past, compact that information into song, and then communicate that information through song to our family and loved ones so that they can solve and avoid problems that have answers in our song.
 
Divination of the present or future is not something I think fits a support bardic character, which is what Ling Qi is.
I don't think that there's any sort of class limitations in this story.

I also don't think that we need to plan up incredibly complicated narrative reasons for LQ to have something in her repertoire. This isn't 'Nobilis', after all.
 
I don't think that there's any sort of class limitations in this story.

I also don't think that we need to plan up incredibly complicated narrative reasons for LQ to have something in her repertoire. This isn't 'Nobilis', after all.
I am not speaking of class limitations, at least when I speak of bard. I am speaking of meta-story level theming describing what social role Ling Qi as a character falls into.

When I talk about a bard, I am not talking about The Bard of DnD or Pathfinder. I'm talking about the social role described in history and the modern world as essentially a central gadfly of the party or life of a hero, a recounter of stories and moral quandaries and laws who provides advice to a protagonist or ruler. Which is the concept the DnD or Pathfinder archetype came from.

When I am talking about a support, I do mean something related to the gaming industry, that specific ethos when it comes to fighting where a character assists a group of others from the linchpin position on a battlefield acting as a rallying banner carrier or as in Ling Qi's case, a source of curses and denunciations of the enemy. I use it for ease of communication purposes and not to imply something as frankly non-applicable as class limits.

(If I wanted to go full social role descriptions I'd call Ling Qi a Witch-Bard or bardic hag and leave it at that)

And I think we do need to plan out narrative storylines/reasons to connect things we add to Ling Qi's repertoire, because if you take a careful look at it right now it makes no sense and each piece is essentially disconnected from the others. See the massive friction between SCS and TRF, and SCS and FVM. Each of these speaks to a different section of Ling Qi's character, without touching on the rest, so we're left with a character carefully juggling all these different thematic sources and trying to shoehorn them together. Thinking ahead, and planning out how things connect to other things is one of the best ways to mitigate and prevent this problem from getting worse.

I mean, we can string it along to be more support by using the stories and songs to impart valuable lessons and wisdom from ages long since past. Teaching the failures of the ones who came before so that those failures can be avoided in the present.

In that way, we can gather information from the past, compact that information into song, and then communicate that information through song to our family and loved ones so that they can solve and avoid problems that have answers in our song.
Which is where the cursing thing comes into play, and having the story of a skald cursing someone acting as a warning to others. It's there but is not the actual point of it, is what I'm getting at.
 
I was actually moving away from that element of what a Skald does and putting our own twist on it.
Could work. In actual practice I expect that if we did get such a past-divination art and gathered information to tell to our friends and family by choice, we'd be helping them most by just sharing that information. And it would not really have mystical or magical association to it unless we get into the idea of whispers or songs traveling immense distances.
 
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I'm talking about the social role described in history and the modern world as essentially a central gadfly of the party or life of a hero, a recounter of stories and moral quandaries and laws who provides advice to a protagonist or ruler.
We kind of aren't this at all, though? We've failed to unite a party and aren't remotely versed in stories and laws. We use our music for entertainment and combat, not stories, and the job Renxiang has asked of us is to provide intel, not advise her on what to do with intel she gets elsewhere.

I think divination has strong connections to the storyline of us embracing EPC and our job as Renxiang's spymaster and is supported skill-wise by our strong stealth and decent perceptiveness and arts-wise by SCS and AM - divination lets us see information despite how it's defended without being seen ourselves.

As to SCS and FVM, despite us not taking it as our core domain theme, we do still have an affinity for darkness and freedom of movement. Daring to go in dark places like the Weilu tomb or where we found the Shaman and slip back out in one piece connects wandering the dark places of the world with embracing the absence of night. We know there's a time to be loud and a time to be silent. A darkness divination art would further reinforce this by letting us find out in advance what mix and order of noise and silence a situation calls for.
 
We kind of aren't this at all, though? We've failed to unite a party and aren't remotely versed in stories and laws. We use our music for entertainment and combat, not stories, and the job Renxiang has asked of us is to provide intel, not advise her on what to do with intel she gets elsewhere.

I think divination has strong connections to the storyline of us embracing EPC and our job as Renxiang's spymaster and is supported skill-wise by our strong stealth and decent perceptiveness and arts-wise by SCS and AM - divination lets us see information despite how it's defended without being seen ourselves.

As to SCS and FVM, despite us not taking it as our core domain theme, we do still have an affinity for darkness and freedom of movement. Daring to go in dark places like the Weilu tomb or where we found the Shaman and slip back out in one piece connects wandering the dark places of the world with embracing the absence of night. We know there's a time to be loud and a time to be silent. A darkness divination art would further reinforce this by letting us find out in advance what mix and order of noise and silence a situation calls for.
I think you mis-read what I wrote, and forgot that bard covers much more than the tiny slice I showed as an example.

Bards are sources of entertainment and connection to the past. Ling Qi is not much of a law giver. But she is versed in stories. FVM is literally a story in song form about a traveler as he travels through a misty vale full of horrible monsters. Ling Qi is also a gadfly. Literally. That's what her role has been whenever she does something, acting as the center of attention. By party I do not mean adventuring party, because again I think using the idea outside of clear communication purposes is bad for this quest, what I meant was a celebration.

EPC has one thing that is connected to the Hidden Moon, giving us boons for secrets we find, full stop. That's it. It doesn't actually care how we find those secrets, it is agnostic to the method of retrieving those secrets, and thus has no direct connection to divination beyond the barest idea that the Hidden Moon also has divination. Using something which is agnostic is not a good support for your point of connection.

Renxiang asking Ling Qi to be her spy master is a simple request, and is important for putting thoughts of "how do I spy master?" in Ling Qi's head, but that's it. Skill wise we make a... okay spy, and a pretty crap spy master. SCS is good for infiltration, but looking at our perception it ain't that good, and I'll repeat that AM's lesson which might be useful for a spy master/mistress hasn't made itself apparent and might as well not exist for all the visible benefits it has on the course of the story or interpretation of its details.

Your third paragraph describes a spy. Not a spy master, which is what we were asked to do and what I'm basically discussing. Sure it might be fine and dandy in and of itself, but as it stands it does not fit with the rest of Ling Qi, just SCS. It's basically taking SCS and going "How can I be more like the infiltrator you espouse" in a very literal sense by looking for and casing a joint ahead of time. Or, another way, the darkness divination art you talk about is a thief's art exactly like SCS is and fits entirely along the character archetype SCS is a part of. I am not a fan of the idea because I like what we got with support bard/witch-bard.

E: And as to advising Renxiang about intel she gets elsewhere, part of a spy masters job is to verify information the one they hire receives. Often by sending out operatives to confirm it and fill out the edges and details. So yes, she's hired us to an advisory position, though a different one than what Gan had.
 
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The Weilu established agriculture. Wonder what the last did
Zhu the Conquerer probably, well, conquered. Some kind of political innovation allowed that, I'd guess, like swearing to be blood brothers even though you're not biologically related or creating a fixed code of law instead of depending on personal whim. Alliance/statism isn't quite conquering, but fishing isn't quite metalworking and divining isn't quite farming. But just a wild swing that could be a miss.
Yep. And you know, the Bai's culture is basically still Bronze Age. All the shit they do would pass unremarked in one.
No...they're definitely not tribal (if that's what you mean by 'Bronze Age'). Tribes have strong controls limiting intra-tribe conflict and are based on personal relationships. The Bai constantly attack one another by design and exist within a dominant hierarchy of empire based on political relationships. Making a primitivist analogy does real-life cultures a disservice. The Bai are a fictional construction meant to alienate readers, represent tradition, and urge reform. They're much worse than any real-life culture.
 
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Zhu the Conquerer probably, well, conquered. Some kind of political innovation allowed that, I'd guess, like swearing to be blood brothers even though you're not biologically related. Alliance isn't quite conquering, but fishing isn't quite metalworking and divining isn't quite farming. But just a wild swing that could be a miss.

No...they're definitely not tribal (if that's what you mean by 'Bronze Age'). Tribes have strong controls limiting intra-tribe conflict and are based on personal relationships. The Bai constantly attack one another by design and exist within a dominant hierarchy of empire based on political relationships. Making a primitivist analogy does real-life cultures a disservice. The Bai are a fictional construction meant to alienate readers, represent tradition, and urge reform. They're much worse than any real-life culture.
Bronze isn't primitive, there was a real movement towards early romanesque levels of infrastructure and civilisation built off the back of palace economies before the Sea People (we don't even know their names because the only traces they left were written by the civilisations they murdered) wiped them all out.
 
In my opinion, if your thematic associations take many long paragraphs of circumlocutions to bring together with your Domain and your Way then the connection is probably pretty loose to begin with.

To me, Divination seems useful to Ling Qi because she just doesn't track as the sort of social spymaster who gets by oh having a huge network of contacts and minions to gather information with right now. With Divination, she can get mysterious leads in the comfort of her Home and then follow up on them in person like the spooky force of nature she is.

Whether this goes in her Domain eventually or not, I think a Divination Dreaming Moon Art is likely to fit with her elements well and bring a lot of useful effects and bonuses, and wouldn't be opposed to it at all. We don't need to decide if we're going to slot arts before we even get them, and paragraphs of discussing the thematics of divination now are going to pale in comparison to see how Ling Qi interacts with such an Art in the real world.
 
Bronze isn't primitive, there was a real movement towards early romanesque levels of infrastructure and civilisation built off the back of palace economies before the Sea People (we don't even know their names because the only traces they left were written by the civilisations they murdered) wiped them all out.
The Sea People aggravated the problem, but the Hittites and Egyptians had their own problems sustaining their populations during that period due to a heavy drought.

Palace economies couldn't sustain large populations outside of city states, the only reason they lasted as long as they did was due to constant warfare acting as a restraint on population growth. It only took one or two disasters to bring the entire region to an end, and the Bronze Age collapse was more than just one or two major shocks.
 
In my opinion, if your thematic associations take many long paragraphs of circumlocutions to bring together with your Domain and your Way then the connection is probably pretty loose to begin with.

To me, Divination seems useful to Ling Qi because she just doesn't track as the sort of social spymaster who gets by oh having a huge network of contacts and minions to gather information with right now. With Divination, she can get mysterious leads in the comfort of her Home and then follow up on them in person like the spooky force of nature she is.

Whether this goes in her Domain eventually or not, I think a Divination Dreaming Moon Art is likely to fit with her elements well and bring a lot of useful effects and bonuses, and wouldn't be opposed to it at all. We don't need to decide if we're going to slot arts before we even get them, and paragraphs of discussing the thematics of divination now are going to pale in comparison to see how Ling Qi interacts with such an Art in the real world.
Which is pretty much the point I was making. It is a loose connection to begin with.

It seems we basically agree actually. Though I look askance at the Dreaming Moon Divination and quoth something from discord:
The crazy demon Today at 2:58 PM

Divination Dreaming Moon Art
Sit down
Get Drunk
???
VISIONS
 
Well, to be fair, there is plenty of historical examples of bards as spies.

Keeping up our own infiltration skills isn't a bad thing though. There will almost certainly be times when we need to go in ourselves.

Also, at least mechanically, SCS and FVM work together fine now.
 
Well, to be fair, there is plenty of historical examples of bards as spies.

Keeping up our own infiltration skills isn't a bad thing though. There will almost certainly be times when we need to go in ourselves.

Also, at least mechanically, SCS and FVM work together fine now.
I'll believe that when I see a Yrs example of combat stealth, which is not to say I disagree, but the complete lack of ability in that regard in the last thread means I need some extraordinary proof.

In my opinion, if your thematic associations take many long paragraphs of circumlocutions to bring together with your Domain and your Way then the connection is probably pretty loose to begin with.

To me, Divination seems useful to Ling Qi because she just doesn't track as the sort of social spymaster who gets by oh having a huge network of contacts and minions to gather information with right now. With Divination, she can get mysterious leads in the comfort of her Home and then follow up on them in person like the spooky force of nature she is.

Whether this goes in her Domain eventually or not, I think a Divination Dreaming Moon Art is likely to fit with her elements well and bring a lot of useful effects and bonuses, and wouldn't be opposed to it at all. We don't need to decide if we're going to slot arts before we even get them, and paragraphs of discussing the thematics of divination now are going to pale in comparison to see how Ling Qi interacts with such an Art in the real world.
And to more touch on another point, my first post which started this train of discussion was not a "We should go out and get this and this" or even in support of the art. It was a lay out post laying out how I thought you might connect the concept of divination to Ling Qi. Not quite a refutation entirely, but it was in large part acting as a refutation of Veekie's more general point about Divination as a whole fitting.
 
An idea for how to integrate Ling Qi's spy and spymaster duties/skills into the concept of Home:

A home is often surrounded by a neighborhood of other homes. It is important, for the safety of your home, to know your neighborhood as best as you can.
 
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