Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
WhoTheHeckity
But no one ever asks HowTheHeckity
- Location
- Murica 🦅
[X] The lesson of the palace
Was previously a roots voter, but I don't think more Dark is what Ling Qi needs right now. I don't want her to become a knife like Jiao or whatever Shu Yue is.
What she needs is not to sharpen her weapons but to be able to understand what that Ideal she's chasing is.
[X] The lesson of the palace
- Location
- United States
[X] The lesson of the roots
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We know that Isolation is effective against our next enemies, I would very much like to sharpen our blade as best we can before we need it.
so
[X] The lesson of the roots
so
[X] The lesson of the roots
This one's a bit of a toughie, so I'm gonna break out the big guns: vaguely structured analysis. There's three axis of choice that seems most relevant to this vote. Those three are opportunity cost, worldbuilding, and the impact on our art Thief of Names.
Opportunity cost:
At its core, opportunity cost refers to whether, and how much, one option precludes another and what that exclusion "costs" us by being lost. Some votes have this as a real factor, some don't, and some have an uneven distribution where one choice has substantially more opportunity cost than another.
This vote is pretty straightforward on this front. Neither option is advantaged or disadvantaged over the other, and, because we're choosing how the art Thief of Names develops via this vote, the opportunity cost is 100% and I don't even need to touch on guessing which of the lore opportunities is more limited than the other. Any argument that we can swing back around for the other choice is fundamentally flawed in the full context of what this vote is about. The art development aspect locks that in as true.
Worldbuilding:
Here's, it's kind of a wash and it's going to come down to vibes for people. One way you could look at it is do we want to see the horrors the powerful unleashed on the weak, or do we want to see the horrors the powerful wrought on themselves? There's dozens of different dichotomies that can be applied to the choice, so getting too worked up about it doesn't really appeal.
On a personal level, I'm a big fan of Palace of One. I dig the vibe, I dig the incompleteness of an Ascended Law, I dig the failure of that dream, and I dig the parallels it's possible to draw between the ascension and contemporary political figures. I'd like more ammunition to craft my little comparisons of perverse irony. And, I have to admit, I'm attracted by what's forbidden. Worship of Palace of One is officially proscribed by Shenhua's decree, which makes finding guides to its nature exceedingly difficult and a guided exposure by one of Shenhua's apprentices a unique opportunity.
Lastly, the dark subject matter of the Roots is something I'm personally entirely comfortable wading into, but historically it's something that can invite derails. An example would be how even the hint of Luo Zhong pressuring Bao Qingling to join in his marriage scheme caused a firestorm which distorted votes over months, prompted a flurry of "take-back" votes, and basically caused yrs to flinch-dump the character and whole storylines even when those votes didn't stick. The things we're hinted to be looking at in the Roots are substantially worse, and while that's not a guarantee of anything, I'm not really seeing (or feeling) why what's on offer there is worth the risk or discomfort, not at the moment. Just doesn't grab me.
Thief of Names:
For me, this is the big one. Mainly because it's the subject that the decision is being made in reference to, when you really dig down to it. What lesson do we wish to pursue for our art Thief of Names? And in making that choice, I think we should look at both the impact of how the tool chosen influences the kinds of stories Ling Qi engages with and the interaction of each tool with storytelling more generally.
First off, what are the options? Just gonna copy+paste to avoid the hell of attempting paraphrasing and paragraph formatting at once.
roots: "There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."
palace: "to know the terrible, scouring fire that is hope. To know how minds may bend toward a distant and unreachable dream. And how these things may be turned. How they may be broken and twisted, the lesson the descendants took from her. This would be another lesson of sight. But as befitting the coming war, it too is a lesson of hurt, if one lesser than the roots."
Way-breaking is cool. Not only is it cool, but it's mysterious. Most dramatically, we saw Shu Yue break a Sovereign's Way with a mask plucked from his own mind, chosen to carry words of sundering Truth. We have seen sect elders at the ends of their Paths not due to age but because their Ways splintered under the tribulations of the world. Maybe most strangely, we've even heard, from Kohatu and of her Master, of clashes between cultivators bending Ways enough to reawaken humanity thought severed or lost. It's a deeply interesting field to explore, and thankfully both options touch on the subject.
The first option is focused on destructively assaulting an opponent's self-identity, though interestingly we'd apparently be gaining our inspiration via exposure to the rawest manifestation of the ways the Hui stripped and dominated the autonomy of others. The second option is more focused on perception/understanding of a target, but also has an element of using that understanding to harm them, seemingly drawing inspiration from the Hui's failed grasp at their founders' ideals.
Of the two, I personally find the second more interesting. I don't have anything against Way-breaking people, I do think it's cool, but it's not super compelling either. I prefer a "lesson of sight", and the ways in which the second option attacks people, by exploiting an understanding of their hopes, sounds more interesting and more in line with other projects and priorities Ling Qi has than just grinding somebody down. Trading some of the punch for what seems likely to be more congruent with our other efforts/storylines makes more sense to me.
But that's just looking at how things would tip Ling Qi's approach using the the art, what about how either approach would impact going on to tell that story? It's really easy to overlook, but not all vote options have the same ease of application, and it's worth examining.
No matter how you approach it, I think, Way-breaking is a narratively intensive kind of attack. You need to draw out a lot of internal characteristics from the target to put on display, not just for the in-universe function of the art, but in order to make the scene convincing for the reader. This means words, and carefully chosen ones. It's a more challenging kind of scene to write, but this is balanced out by the facts that it's really cool and that it injects some variety into the story as a whole.
But the labor-intensive nature of Way-breaking means that there are meta-constraints. We will not be Way-breaking often. Setting the foundation for one requires too much setup, usually over a spread of scenes and a whole lot of words. Even more than that, there's a fundamental tension for any author here: to prepare a victim for a Way-breaking, the author has necessarily turned them into a fleshed out secondary or tertiary character, and Way-breaking them means writing off all of the work you've put into them. That's not to say that it's not worth it or that it'll never happen, but it does mean that it's inescapably a rare treat for us.
With that in mind, it informs us of the utility-in-practice of how we develop Thief of Names here. And, again in my opinion, it shifts that analysis in favor of the Palace for two reasons, related to frequency of use and conservation of author effort. One, because Way-breakings are necessarily rare, a technique that focuses mainly on perception will simply be used more. Two, because the focus of the Palace option's Way-breaking is less total, and more aligned with twisting and manipulating hopes, it's easier for yrs to have the art's use be decisive but not write off the target character completely. There's more latitude for repurposing of that target character, and in a way that still feels like a success/rewarding for player efforts.
[X] the lesson of the palace
This is the choice that's more interesting to me personally. And as a bonus, I feel like it will be easier to write its use into the story effectively and frequently, thanks to dodging some of the internal conflict inherent to (the very cool) Way-breaking narratives.
Opportunity cost:
At its core, opportunity cost refers to whether, and how much, one option precludes another and what that exclusion "costs" us by being lost. Some votes have this as a real factor, some don't, and some have an uneven distribution where one choice has substantially more opportunity cost than another.
This vote is pretty straightforward on this front. Neither option is advantaged or disadvantaged over the other, and, because we're choosing how the art Thief of Names develops via this vote, the opportunity cost is 100% and I don't even need to touch on guessing which of the lore opportunities is more limited than the other. Any argument that we can swing back around for the other choice is fundamentally flawed in the full context of what this vote is about. The art development aspect locks that in as true.
Worldbuilding:
Here's, it's kind of a wash and it's going to come down to vibes for people. One way you could look at it is do we want to see the horrors the powerful unleashed on the weak, or do we want to see the horrors the powerful wrought on themselves? There's dozens of different dichotomies that can be applied to the choice, so getting too worked up about it doesn't really appeal.
On a personal level, I'm a big fan of Palace of One. I dig the vibe, I dig the incompleteness of an Ascended Law, I dig the failure of that dream, and I dig the parallels it's possible to draw between the ascension and contemporary political figures. I'd like more ammunition to craft my little comparisons of perverse irony. And, I have to admit, I'm attracted by what's forbidden. Worship of Palace of One is officially proscribed by Shenhua's decree, which makes finding guides to its nature exceedingly difficult and a guided exposure by one of Shenhua's apprentices a unique opportunity.
Lastly, the dark subject matter of the Roots is something I'm personally entirely comfortable wading into, but historically it's something that can invite derails. An example would be how even the hint of Luo Zhong pressuring Bao Qingling to join in his marriage scheme caused a firestorm which distorted votes over months, prompted a flurry of "take-back" votes, and basically caused yrs to flinch-dump the character and whole storylines even when those votes didn't stick. The things we're hinted to be looking at in the Roots are substantially worse, and while that's not a guarantee of anything, I'm not really seeing (or feeling) why what's on offer there is worth the risk or discomfort, not at the moment. Just doesn't grab me.
Thief of Names:
For me, this is the big one. Mainly because it's the subject that the decision is being made in reference to, when you really dig down to it. What lesson do we wish to pursue for our art Thief of Names? And in making that choice, I think we should look at both the impact of how the tool chosen influences the kinds of stories Ling Qi engages with and the interaction of each tool with storytelling more generally.
First off, what are the options? Just gonna copy+paste to avoid the hell of attempting paraphrasing and paragraph formatting at once.
roots: "There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."
palace: "to know the terrible, scouring fire that is hope. To know how minds may bend toward a distant and unreachable dream. And how these things may be turned. How they may be broken and twisted, the lesson the descendants took from her. This would be another lesson of sight. But as befitting the coming war, it too is a lesson of hurt, if one lesser than the roots."
Way-breaking is cool. Not only is it cool, but it's mysterious. Most dramatically, we saw Shu Yue break a Sovereign's Way with a mask plucked from his own mind, chosen to carry words of sundering Truth. We have seen sect elders at the ends of their Paths not due to age but because their Ways splintered under the tribulations of the world. Maybe most strangely, we've even heard, from Kohatu and of her Master, of clashes between cultivators bending Ways enough to reawaken humanity thought severed or lost. It's a deeply interesting field to explore, and thankfully both options touch on the subject.
The first option is focused on destructively assaulting an opponent's self-identity, though interestingly we'd apparently be gaining our inspiration via exposure to the rawest manifestation of the ways the Hui stripped and dominated the autonomy of others. The second option is more focused on perception/understanding of a target, but also has an element of using that understanding to harm them, seemingly drawing inspiration from the Hui's failed grasp at their founders' ideals.
Of the two, I personally find the second more interesting. I don't have anything against Way-breaking people, I do think it's cool, but it's not super compelling either. I prefer a "lesson of sight", and the ways in which the second option attacks people, by exploiting an understanding of their hopes, sounds more interesting and more in line with other projects and priorities Ling Qi has than just grinding somebody down. Trading some of the punch for what seems likely to be more congruent with our other efforts/storylines makes more sense to me.
But that's just looking at how things would tip Ling Qi's approach using the the art, what about how either approach would impact going on to tell that story? It's really easy to overlook, but not all vote options have the same ease of application, and it's worth examining.
No matter how you approach it, I think, Way-breaking is a narratively intensive kind of attack. You need to draw out a lot of internal characteristics from the target to put on display, not just for the in-universe function of the art, but in order to make the scene convincing for the reader. This means words, and carefully chosen ones. It's a more challenging kind of scene to write, but this is balanced out by the facts that it's really cool and that it injects some variety into the story as a whole.
But the labor-intensive nature of Way-breaking means that there are meta-constraints. We will not be Way-breaking often. Setting the foundation for one requires too much setup, usually over a spread of scenes and a whole lot of words. Even more than that, there's a fundamental tension for any author here: to prepare a victim for a Way-breaking, the author has necessarily turned them into a fleshed out secondary or tertiary character, and Way-breaking them means writing off all of the work you've put into them. That's not to say that it's not worth it or that it'll never happen, but it does mean that it's inescapably a rare treat for us.
With that in mind, it informs us of the utility-in-practice of how we develop Thief of Names here. And, again in my opinion, it shifts that analysis in favor of the Palace for two reasons, related to frequency of use and conservation of author effort. One, because Way-breakings are necessarily rare, a technique that focuses mainly on perception will simply be used more. Two, because the focus of the Palace option's Way-breaking is less total, and more aligned with twisting and manipulating hopes, it's easier for yrs to have the art's use be decisive but not write off the target character completely. There's more latitude for repurposing of that target character, and in a way that still feels like a success/rewarding for player efforts.
[X] the lesson of the palace
This is the choice that's more interesting to me personally. And as a bonus, I feel like it will be easier to write its use into the story effectively and frequently, thanks to dodging some of the internal conflict inherent to (the very cool) Way-breaking narratives.
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Cecylene
Eternal Idea Engine
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Pronouns
- He/They
Alternatively, knowing how to twist and bend their greatest strength, to turn their own source of strength against them could be seen as sharpening our blade for the coming battles.
Both options carry clear use against the Ithia, I just want to see Ling Qi face off against what Hope means in all the ways it hurts and helps.
Hope can be the road that leads one to transcend limits and boundaries, to push oneself to success.
But, to quote from Destiny 2: "We fight a war against false hope… who baits young life into building houses for it. These houses are unsafe for they cannot stand against my [army]. And these houses are a trap — for they lead young life away from the blade and the tooth, which are the tools of survival and the means of ascension."
Hope can also make people forget what it is to struggle and smother the ambitions of those that strike against the collective's desires. If you hope for peace, then your dreams are not of being ready for battle. And while nuance exists, it is in the generalization and smoothing of understanding that happens on large scales that these problems arise.
Understanding Hope let's Ling Qi also learn to wield it like a weapon. Because, and to quote Destiny again, "… to wield Hope as a weapon, to offer it as a crutch, a beacon he saw as false promise. 'Nothing dies like Hope,' he'd say. And was right. The loss of Hope stings like no other. But he knew something else — a truth he would not share, a truth muddied by his words and deeds and the grim menace of his presence. And that truth?
Hope is eternal."
Understanding the nature of Hope I think would be a big boon to Ling Qi, because the ideals around it, both sides of Hope, harmonize so well with her insights.
[X] the lesson of the palace
It's an art choice vote. We might explore the Palace of One later, but we certainly won't be getting this exact option again.
[X] The lesson of the palace
This assumption that we will go to the palace of one later is probably true, however the likelihood that we will go to the palace of one to incorporate it's lesson into one of our defining arts is to me a wild assumption to make. My read on the threads interest in the palace of one has been that we want to do what the Hui failed to do and build on the foundation the palace of one left in the world by incorporating it into our cultivation...this is that so lets do that.
This assumption that we will go to the palace of one later is probably true, however the likelihood that we will go to the palace of one to incorporate it's lesson into one of our defining arts is to me a wild assumption to make. My read on the threads interest in the palace of one has been that we want to do what the Hui failed to do and build on the foundation the palace of one left in the world by incorporating it into our cultivation...this is that so lets do that.
This. We'll examine how the Hui fucked up later for sure, but it won't be in the context of Ling Qi engraving the lessons of the experience into her soul.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I've been swayed by that quote in Ling Qi's mind about the muddy roots. I just feel that a bit more, but either's good and I'm not doing this vote expecting that we'll get both or whatever.
[X] The lesson of the roots
[X] The lesson of the roots
- Location
- FR
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which is especially relevant when you consider that LQ's kit is very Hui-like, and it's not escaping anyone who's paying attention.
Also relevant,though speculative: there's two places where we might be getting a flute as quest reward: the piper and the palace. I would much rather get it from the palace if at all possible, since she's a sublime and if we're getting a favor from the piper, I'd rather it be less... one-and-done, since we're living on the same clay.
The reason I'm bringing that up is that I don't believe Yrs is making us take a choice now for the lesson, before the piper's quest, because he's having trouble finding stuff to make us vote on.
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Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I actually prefer the idea of visiting Palace of One under a different context. Remember, the main purpose of this trip is to learn how to HURT.
If we're going to learn about hope and nationalism, we're learning how to turn that into a weapon against enemies... I don't want that to be context in which we engage with Palace of One, if we're going to learn about it and its Way.
Whenever we vote for cultivation actions, we, most of the time, vote for the options that fit the context and narrative of the next arcs. We should do the same thing here.
[X] The lesson of the roots
Plus, again, we have to take into mind the characters involved in this scene. We're going with Shu Yue, a product of the horrors of the roots, and so can give us the most insight.
Plus, this is the initial lesson they intended. I want to see what they make of it, since the first few were bangers.
Edit: Also, I find the argument that we will miss the chance to engrave Palace of One into our very soul to be very hyperbolic. Everything related to cultivation engraved something into our soul.
All the +1/+2 concept XP we get is an understanding of a concept we got from our insights, which continue to shake how we view and interpret said insights. Every experience is a lesson for things.
Even if we don't go for the express lesson of learning an art, visiting it at a latter time can STILL impact our Way heavily. Especially if we view it in a more suitable context than hurt.
If we're going to learn about hope and nationalism, we're learning how to turn that into a weapon against enemies... I don't want that to be context in which we engage with Palace of One, if we're going to learn about it and its Way.
Whenever we vote for cultivation actions, we, most of the time, vote for the options that fit the context and narrative of the next arcs. We should do the same thing here.
[X] The lesson of the roots
Plus, again, we have to take into mind the characters involved in this scene. We're going with Shu Yue, a product of the horrors of the roots, and so can give us the most insight.
Plus, this is the initial lesson they intended. I want to see what they make of it, since the first few were bangers.
Edit: Also, I find the argument that we will miss the chance to engrave Palace of One into our very soul to be very hyperbolic. Everything related to cultivation engraved something into our soul.
All the +1/+2 concept XP we get is an understanding of a concept we got from our insights, which continue to shake how we view and interpret said insights. Every experience is a lesson for things.
Even if we don't go for the express lesson of learning an art, visiting it at a latter time can STILL impact our Way heavily. Especially if we view it in a more suitable context than hurt.
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- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
Let me start by saying that I fully agree about the dangers of a true nationalistic fervor taking hold in the emerald seas. Letting the slowly emerging common culture turn to jingoism and uncritical assumptions of exceptionalism would be an utter failure, in my opinion. But. But I would be so much more interested in digging into that knot of philosophy after the war. I want to have Ling Qi see the Ith, understand them as people, and still have to fight and kill them before considering that.
I think their culture would bring a very meaningful bit of perspective to the table and I think that the increased difficulty of combating excessive nationalism in the wake of a war makes it more interesting as well.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
JIC I came off as too agressive, I have no beef with people who are voting for roots just cause they think roots option is cool/interesting/most useful. I just think that thinking that we can have both cakes is incorrect: we will only learn one upgrade to Thief of Names.
Worth going back to this update and reading up on Palace of One, imo. A dying Great Spirit, failed in its goals by its living kin, now spurned and outlawed by those who survived the nightmare of its unfulfilled legacy.
As for relevance to an upcoming war arc, there's a pretty interesting element of history there, that I think could be played with effectively. The Hui's rise/seizure of power was a response to the war-like ways of the Xi. If you look at Palace of One's expressed concepts, it's a ship from a struggle of blades to create one world to a struggle of ideas. And then the subsequent shitshow the Hui made of that ideal.
I think that dynamic has a lot to say heading into a war, especially in the context of Ling Qi, who is embarking on a more diplomatic/[COMMUNICATIVE] philosophy of life, between her work duties and artistry and so-on. Centering that historical conflict between ideals could be an excellent way of sharpening the conflict that will be taking place inside of Ling Qi's own principals during the war arc.
Hmm? This isn't accurate. Ling Qi introduced the roots here, not Shu Yue. If anything, the word choice of "would" when replying even implies it wasn't their original idea. Though I think the truth is the choice was always intended. Shu Yue's consistently been big on student direction in the lessons given.
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