Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I am genuinely frustrated at the idea that we are given an empty, meaningless choice. No, we will not get to explore the palace in this context again. We will not be given a chance to learn this lesson later. Cause otherwise, Shu Yue would have mentioned that both lesson would be available later.
I mean. Yeah? I don't think most people expect to get the exact same lesson from the palace if we go back to it later, and for me personally, that's why I don't want to do it right now. I specifically want to go look at the roots in the context of having Shu Yue there with us arming us for war, and I want to look at the palace in the context of exploring it in search of meaning rather than a weapon. I expect things to go badly during the war, not to lose it but for Ling Qi to be unhappy with what happened and what she or people she loves have done. I want to go to the Palace in search of answers, carrying whatever recent scars we've gained and confront the failures of the Palace's legacy with them at the forefront of our thoughts.

The only thing that I could see that might be a more poignant option is the Unity of Blades, and that just seems like a much less safe option to go poke our nose into.
 
I'd like to point out that Palace of One is officially a forbidden god, so Shu Yue tagging along presents a golden opportunity to poke at it without getting into trouble with Shenhua.
"The ones who ascend, they can't disappear so quickly, especially not right where they ascended," Sixiang said quietly, circling her like smoke as if any moment that hidden light could lance out and destroy her.

When cultivator reached the peak of the eighth and final realm, and ascended yet again, they ceased to exist in the mortal world, writing the law they had built in their lives into the fabric of the world. The Palace of One was one such Law, though the great spirits worship was forbidden. It had once been the first Matriarch of the Hui clan after all, who had overseen their rise to the Ducal palace.
 
I'd like to point out that Palace of One is officially a forbidden god, so Shu Yue tagging along presents a golden opportunity to poke at it without getting into trouble with Shenhua.

Worship of a great spirit isn't the same as exploring it. We've seen what spirit worship is, and recently arranged some rights just for that... I doubt we're going to do that with Palace of One, so I think we're safe to explore and learn from it too.. Exploring it won't give it power.
 
Worship of a great spirit isn't the same as exploring it. We've seen what spirit worship is, and recently arranged some rights just for that... I doubt we're going to do that with Palace of One, so I think we're safe to explore and learn from it too.. Exploring it won't give it power.
This is missing the point. Worship is disallowed. Pilgrimage is one of the most basic, and dedicated, forms of worship there is.

It seems unlikely to me that there's a blase attitude about who goes up to and enters the vortex of the Palace of One, or else the fact of the ban wouldn't be actual in any meaningful sense, and if there's one thing above all else that Shenhua's rule is it's True.

Attempting to enter the vortex of the Palace of One is more likely than not to invite scrutiny. I don't really want that. Shu Yue's escort is a great, non-reproducible, way to circumvent it.
 
First off, I don't think learning about the roots forces us to do bad things to anyone later in the war arc. Ling qi can certainly face horror and become stronger from it, and I think it's better to do now than on the battlefield, as it'll help us deal with strong negativity like despair much easier. Ling qi is smart and strong enough to avoid evil decisions if there's another option, so I think confronting darkness won't affect that.

I do agree that you should vote for what you want to see now, though I think people who want to wait for palace have a point in that we will naturally but gradually learn more about palace of one, including it's failings and ideals, but not all at once, which is this type of opportunity. With roots, we'll have an experience where we can see and feel the failed dreams and ways of cultivators. The lesson of failure and conviction in a dream not being enough is important, and that harsh reality is something we have been able to avoid. Seeing its effects on others will prepare us and let us recognize this breakdown in other people, whether to exploit or help. I think the lessons we learn from roots can be extrapolated back to a more positive light eventually, as way breaking is the opposite side of way mending, and I have faith that ling qi can connect this lesson to be helpful in connecting with others.

On how much it'll be used, I think that there will be lesser applications of the hurt roots will happen (though palace will probably be used more), and in the long run having this narratively heavy weapon is a good thing. It will be interesting to simply have this weapon in our arsenal, and our contemplation of having this power over others will also help us grow. Also, characters dying is fine, the investment people have in those characters shouldn't affect the story that much. But even if a person is way broken, I don't think that means they always die. A character would certainly and irreversibly change, but they could, for example, simply become a husk of a person and work their way up from that (or fail to). That would be an interesting character arc.

I think the view into personal dreams and ways that have failed is more interesting to me (subjectively of course). We see and hear about the effects of the victors across the empire, but the dreams of those that are forgotten aren't told and have to be discovered (and for the hui, it's for a reason). Also, I think people connecting us to the hui because of the dreaming part of the way will be an interesting point of conflict and we shouldn't shy away from it because we are scared to be attacked because of it.

Finally, I also like how this will touch on ling qi inner darkness from isolation, which might cause her isolation to be brought to the forefront again, priming it for the war arc. Isolation would connect with the idea of the personal dreams we'd be examining (and hui culture), and the isolation inherent in a cultivator's way as climbing realms polarizes them and cutting themselves off of their humanity, causing them to do horrible things.
 
We could also consider Shu Yue's loyalty when they suggest things to Ling Qi. I doubt they have Ling Qi's long-term interests in mind (prioritizing the interests of Cai instead, which makes sense). Last time, they suggested Ling Qi sacrifice herself in the sovereigns' battle, and now, anticipating war, with the roots lesson, they are suggesting fully weaponizing the art that was developed by (quoting yrsillar art description) "Ling Qi's desire to understand and communicate."

I'm sure it'll be advantageous during the war, but how often will Ling Qi use it later? At least the palace lesson retains some utility for understanding/perception.

Way-breaking art sounds cool and awesome, but I don't think it should be attained at the cost of the Thief of Names' primary purpose, especially not after all the understanding/communication work done during and after the summit.
 
We could also consider Shu Yue's loyalty when they suggest things to Ling Qi. I doubt they have Ling Qi's long-term interests in mind (prioritizing the interests of Cai instead, which makes sense). Last time, they suggested Ling Qi sacrifice herself in the sovereigns' battle, and now, anticipating war, with the roots lesson, they are suggesting fully weaponizing the art that was developed by (quoting yrsillar art description) "Ling Qi's desire to understand and communicate."

I'm sure it'll be advantageous during the war, but how often will Ling Qi use it later? At least the palace lesson retains some utility for understanding/perception.

Way-breaking art sounds cool and awesome, but I don't think it should be attained at the cost of the Thief of Names' primary purpose, especially not after all the understanding/communication work done during and after the summit.


No. When Shu Yue gave Ling Qi their first lesson, they fully expected her to adopt Eyes or Grudges, and she did. That's how we have Thief of Names.

I fully expect the same thing to happen here. If we pick up the exact lessons and tools the Hui did, it's basically a fail state. Shu Yue knows that they and Shenhua need to be replaced and that Ling Qi is kind of their successor. I don't expect them to want us to pick lessons from the Hui 1-1.

I also disagree with the idea that Way breaking has to have extensive Narrative built-up. We nearly broke Liang He (Want Chao's sword friend) from a duel. We've watched Yrs describe Jiao and Xin break a bandit Lord's cultivation in one chapter (Moon's Vows). It can be done without taking up too much narrative space.

Even if we're not breaking Ways, I can see us using the lessons from it to Communicate and work with Sovereigns and cultivators and spirits whose Ways make certain actions impossible or difficult without some reframing.

This is missing the point. Worship is disallowed. Pilgrimage is one of the most basic, and dedicated, forms of worship there is.

It seems unlikely to me that there's a blase attitude about who goes up to and enters the vortex of the Palace of One, or else the fact of the ban wouldn't be actual in any meaningful sense, and if there's one thing above all else that Shenhua's rule is it's True.

Attempting to enter the vortex of the Palace of One is more likely than not to invite scrutiny. I don't really want that. Shu Yue's escort is a great, non-reproducible, way to circumvent it.

Likewise, it seems unlikely that visiting a literally location accessible in the Dream would be banned. First of all, it's not giving Palace of One power and this reviving it. And we already got somewhat close to it during our first stay in Xiangmen. It's at the centre of Xiangmen's Liminal, and we saw a lot of dreams for the province pass through there. I highly doubt that it'll be banned or highly inaccessible.

But then again, my and your points are all speculation. All we know is that worship is banned, and that we have been given examples of worship for both great spirits and normal spirits. We're obviously not going to do that.
 
First off, I don't think learning about the roots forces us to do bad things to anyone later in the war arc. Ling qi can certainly face horror and become stronger from it, and I think it's better to do now than on the battlefield, as it'll help us deal with strong negativity like despair much easier. Ling qi is smart and strong enough to avoid evil decisions if there's another option, so I think confronting darkness won't affect that.

I do agree that you should vote for what you want to see now, though I think people who want to wait for palace have a point in that we will naturally but gradually learn more about palace of one, including it's failings and ideals, but not all at once, which is this type of opportunity. With roots, we'll have an experience where we can see and feel the failed dreams and ways of cultivators. The lesson of failure and conviction in a dream not being enough is important, and that harsh reality is something we have been able to avoid. Seeing its effects on others will prepare us and let us recognize this breakdown in other people, whether to exploit or help. I think the lessons we learn from roots can be extrapolated back to a more positive light eventually, as way breaking is the opposite side of way mending, and I have faith that ling qi can connect this lesson to be helpful in connecting with others.

On how much it'll be used, I think that there will be lesser applications of the hurt roots will happen (though palace will probably be used more), and in the long run having this narratively heavy weapon is a good thing. It will be interesting to simply have this weapon in our arsenal, and our contemplation of having this power over others will also help us grow. Also, characters dying is fine, the investment people have in those characters shouldn't affect the story that much. But even if a person is way broken, I don't think that means they always die. A character would certainly and irreversibly change, but they could, for example, simply become a husk of a person and work their way up from that (or fail to). That would be an interesting character arc.

I think the view into personal dreams and ways that have failed is more interesting to me (subjectively of course). We see and hear about the effects of the victors across the empire, but the dreams of those that are forgotten aren't told and have to be discovered (and for the hui, it's for a reason). Also, I think people connecting us to the hui because of the dreaming part of the way will be an interesting point of conflict and we shouldn't shy away from it because we are scared to be attacked because of it.

Finally, I also like how this will touch on ling qi inner darkness from isolation, which might cause her isolation to be brought to the forefront again, priming it for the war arc. Isolation would connect with the idea of the personal dreams we'd be examining (and hui culture), and the isolation inherent in a cultivator's way as climbing realms polarizes them and cutting themselves off of their humanity, causing them to do horrible things.
Hmm, you may have gotten a couple things mixed up? Some of the points you're raising in favor don't seem to line up with the text. I've isolated the section discussing the roots option.

"We focus then, on the outer expressions of the art. The faults and fissures and imperfections of identity. The ways in which it is worn away. The methods by which it is broken," their voice was low and cold. "This is the opportunity. You will walk in the Dream of Xiangmen with me, and together, we will look on what lingers there."

"You intend to take me where I promised not to walk during my last visit then?" Ling Qi asked.

"The roots would be a strong lesson," Shu Yue agreed. "You have seen the surface of it in your own life."

Ling Qi gave a small nod. The streets of Tonghou; privation, desperation, the wear it left on you, the crumbling of your boundaries. "You call it the surface only."

Shu Yue's smile was gone, their thin lips pressed in an unhappy line. "Yes. I would never have warned you away if it were only that. In the depths of the great tree, there were far greater horrors and nightmares. The whims of the liar lords, the dream makers, there in the dark, there was never any pretension that they were not absolute.That reality was not their clay to shape as they would. Even two hundred years and the scouring of Her radiance cannot remove that shadow."

Something about the way Shu Yue spoke sent a shiver up her spine, the whispers it sent clawing at her mind, like the whispering laughter and sobs of countless children, made her heart freeze in her chest more than any encounter with a winter spirit.

"There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."

There's not really any talk of failed dreams here. The description is more of an environment which was so horrible that no dreams existed within it in the first place. That wasn't a "pretension" that survived the Hui's influence. People didn't even dare to hope for something better, they were reduced to "their least selves".

The option that discussed failed dreams, and the insufficiency of only a dream, was more the Palace option.

Anyway, not even trying to change your mind here, just noticed what looked like a mismatch and trying to clarify if it's needed so you can pursue the ideas you find interesting effectively. If it's not needed, cool.
 
[X] the lesson of the palace

LQ is not an assassin.

We have brought that line up many times. So, let's see....

There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."
Hm... ah, i know what this reminds me of!
uel Virtue was sundered, shredded, split unto a thousand pieces, mocking eyes and knives of night. It whispered numbers, it whispered names, and though they splashed like water upon the hide of Towering Pride, they burned and burned where they met the wounds that had already been struck.

Though Virtue could not touch upon pride, cruel knives could pierce the foundations upon which it rested. Treasures, slaves, twisted dependant love, these things could be taken, bonds broken, paths offered. Cruel virtue took his treasures, mocked Pride without mercy. In the heart of Towering Pride, vengeance roared with a heat to sear away the clouds.

And the Archivist of Vice spread her hands, and showed to him a thousand thousand flames piteous and small, who roared all the same, and in the same voice. Each one the child of his own flame. A million, million flames, his predecessors in ruinous tantrum. Her quill pierced his eye, drove past rationalization, self righteousness, and wrath, stabbed deep into the man who still dreamed beneath the crown. No different, no different at all. Merely a man, a lucky man and no more.

And when Towering pride Shuddered, his hide split by irrefutable proof of his mediocrity, his common-ness. Cruel Virtue drew Order unto a blade of silver and moonstone, and extinguished the conflagration which had devoured so many.
The tag team of Jiao and Xin!

And, to an lesser extent, Shue Jue, because she becomes you as well, learns your actions and secrets, then chokes you.
The corner's of her tutor's lips curled back up. "It is a choice. There is another lesson. You have seen her. The vortice in the canopy. The Empty Ascension. The Palace of One. She whose dream was never shared, the throne of ideals. You have floated in her orbit. I would take you deeper. To know the terrible, scouring fire that is hope. To know how minds may bend toward a distant and unreachable dream. And how these things may be turned. How they may be broken and twisted, the lesson the descendants took from her. This would be another lesson of sight. But as befitting the coming war, it too is a lesson of hurt, if one lesser than the roots."
This... this reminds me of both our penfriends and the winter spirit we bribed with chestnuts.
We could have steered the penpals to imperial leaning, but we did chose to encourage their pride in the Emerald Seas, and the tidbits we heard about it afterwards have been both fun and pleasant for me.

And the Spirit will join our forces for the Theater of Frosts.

We are also supposed to be the ligther/softer replacements for Shue Jue's generation, though.
Personally, I also enjoy what Palace of One offers more than what The Roots does, even if both has their pros and cons.

Edit: forgot the highlighting from PoO
 
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Hm.. Roots basically show you who the cultivators are, while PoO shows you who they wish/strive to be?

Or...

Scalpel and accuracy now which can be used both for harming and healing vs looking at their paths and nudging to change the trajectory, to help, or subvert others, i guess?

Basically, act now or invest in the future?
 
There's not really any talk of failed dreams here. The description is more of an environment which was so horrible that no dreams existed within it in the first place. That wasn't a "pretension" that survived the Hui's influence. People didn't even dare to hope for something better, they were reduced to "their least selves".

The option that discussed failed dreams, and the insufficiency of only a dream, was more the Palace option.

Anyway, not even trying to change your mind here, just noticed what looked like a mismatch and trying to clarify if it's needed so you can pursue the ideas you find interesting effectively. If it's not needed, cool.
How I see it (and I think this is at least true to an extent) is that it'll examine the experiments of the hui and how it hurt everybody else. With "liar lords and dream makers" combined with the absoluteness of hui belief in themselves, I'm talking about the dreams of the hui, and how those failed to have any real impact on the world, now buried and forgotten. Should've clarified I was talking about the hui there, sorry. I did see that the palace of one failed and I find that interesting to look at, but the failed and twisted dreams of the hui after are more interesting to me.
 
Imma be honest the thought of stepping into offensive way breaking with Shu yue and not Huisheng the breaker of ways is giving me a heart demon. Ill admit I do see the roots arguments at least the ones that dont mention the entirely hypothetical better future time for palace of one. But like...what about the much less hypothetical better future time to learn offensive way breaking from Huisheng :cry:
 
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Imma be honest the thought of stepping into offensive way breaking with Shu yue and not Huisheng the breaker of ways is giving me a heart demon. Ill admit I do see the roots arguments at least the ones that dont mention the entirely hypothetical better future time for palace of one. But like...what about the much less hypothetical better future time to learn offensive way breaking from Huisheng :cry:
Tbf Shu Yue is very adept at way breaking, what do you think they did to finish off Meng Delun? They found the weakness in his way and opened it up for a finishing blow by taking the guise of Tsu and telling him that he has been lying to himself the whole time. Playing on his fears that the voice he thought was Tsu was actually just his own. Which was true ofc.
 
Tbf Shu Yue is very adept at way breaking, what do you think they did to finish off Meng Delun? They found the weakness in his way and opened it up for a finishing blow by taking the guise of Tsu and telling him that he has been lying to himself the whole time. Playing on his fears that the voice he thought was Tsu was actually just his own. Which was true ofc.
Ironically, of the two options before us, Shu Yue's approach in that scene was decidedly more similar to the Palace investigation than the Roots.

It was all about how Delun had warped himself in his reverence of an impossible, untouchable ideal, etc, etc.
 
I think that Palace of One is a better follow-up to the beliefs and aspirations LQ has developed during the Summit.

LQ has already meditated extensively about "not forgeting the small things" as she continues to climb upward on the path of cultivation.
We can see that most recently on the battle between the General and SWD, when LQ contemplates the differences between them and how SWD deviated from his path because he forgot about the individual members of his clan.

This is the Advanced Insigt LQ gain in the battle between the Heron General and Still Waters Deepening.

The world is never still. Power is change. In every soul sleeps that spark. There is power in stoking that, enflaming that. Power that may move mountains and gods alike. (Power, Motion, Choice)

Which I don't need to point out is very similar to this.

To know the terrible, scouring fire that is hope. To know how minds may bend toward a distant and unreachable dream. And how these things may be turned. How they may be broken and twisted, the lesson the descendants took from her.

So this is the perfect opportunity to explore and temper one of the most fundamental cornerstones of LQ's cultivation.
LQ has just internalized the power of stoking hope and a desire for change on people. Now is time to explore and understand its dangers.

LQ is already developing a vision for an unified and improved ES, so it would be beneficial to see the last Ascension that attempted it and how she ultimately failed due to her successors.
 
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