Hmm. So. Hmm. Not to throw a wrench in everything or anything, but, uh, @yrsillar there's been something tickling my brain about this vote, and I think I just figured it out.
The adventure we're voting for is during the wedding trip north, but the art development we're doing isn't for the wedding trip north.
So, first off, obviously we're having this vote now so there's time to plan out the arc that we pick in advance. Which makes total sense, but it took me a while to reorient it in the timeframe it's going to happen.
The wedding trip is already pretty busy. There's a bunch of characters waiting to be reintroduced to the story, like the 4 Bai buddies, Meng Dan, Sixiang, Diao Hualing, maybe Xuan Shi, and that's all before the actual wedding/politics intrigue stuff starts, with any characters that might bring, like Jin Tae, completely new faces, etc. It's also already starting to get crowded up with committed arcs. There's the ith talks with Diao Hualing and the ministries, the actual wedding itself, (re)intro arcs for characters. Sixiang's in particular kind of has to be meaty.
And this vote is adding on another side-arc, which is unrelated to the wedding trip as a whole.
And the specific. Our gains from it are targeted at the war arc, which isn't the major arc we'll be involved in at the time. The tools we pick up from our Shu Yue adventure won't even be applicable to the wedding stuff. So actually using those tools will be put on hold for months, waiting for the war arc. Where other major arts of ours, like FFS and MRE are already waiting in the wings to get their "real" debuts. None of that is ideal.
Structurally, it seems like a weird dynamic. Environments like the wedding are kind of where Thief of Names is particularly suited to operate; why is it going on this side-dip into tools that are decidedly unsuited for the wedding, and why is it doing so right before or during that arc? It seems strange. The art will then be in a traffic jam/knife-fight with other arts, as soon as the war arc starts. In the past, this has usually caused us to rapidly cycle through art focuses without much rhyme or reason, just to GET THEM DONE, to the detriment of everything. It's what happened during the summit arc, honestly.
There's a lot of leap-frogging around the place, in both the short and medium terms, and I just don't think it's well-conceived. It's a bunch of stuff getting in its own way, and in the way of the other things we're doing along the way. This roadmap puts extra time/pacing constraints on the the wedding arc as a whole, denies and delays implementation of the Thief of Names development we'll be doing itself, and sets up unproductive art tensions for the war arc.
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Miscellaneous thoughts:
-Is the idea for Sixiang to join up with us for this Shu Yue adventure? Because if so, god damn did we need that information up-front.
-I think this analysis is pretty unfriendly to both options as a whole, but technically the Palace option at least leaves open the potential of some of what we learn actually being used during the wedding arc, with the perception stuff.
-I had a third thought but I forgor
I think Xiangmen is supposed to be a large, heavy and pivotal arc before war, and I at least am not worried about this new arc somehow ruining or taking "narrative space" of the other arcs. I feel like this would just come down to how yrs writes the whole of the Xiangmen arcs, pacing it well or not.
Along the same note, I'm simply not worried about Thief of Names not getting used in the wedding arc. Are you sure that's true? I feel like ling qi will gain a new perspective on the wedding and it's attendants with both routes, roots or palace, and with palace be able to use the art to an extent at the wedding, which you addressed. Roots could let ling qi find weak points in other people's ways more easily (whether that be through ToN or just naturally, as a part of Shu Yue's lesson), which would be applicable outside of pivotal narrative mind heists.
We don't know how long the war arc is going to last, but thief of names will get shown off in a different context (spy craft) than our conventional arts. It all depends on the length of war arc (which I hope is long) for if we'll be able to show off all our cool new stuff.
I guess it all will depend on how it's handled, and I simply worry less than most about these structure problems. But it's good to bring up potential issues now.
To sum up my opinion for why Palace would be better:
Roots will teach Ling Qi how to hurt.
"There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."
Palace does that as well, but additionally it will give her insight into how to strive for an ideal, as well as the pitfalls one risks along the way, like what happened with the Hui.
To know the terrible, scouring fire that is hope. To know how minds may bend toward a distant and unreachable dream. And how these things may be turned. How they may be broken and twisted, the lesson the descendants took from her. This would be another lesson of sight. But as befitting the coming war, it too is a lesson of hurt, if one lesser than the roots."
Sounds like a darn vital lesson for someone who aspires to heal the wounds of the Emerald Seas, which is Ling Qi's desired goal.
Also Palace seems more useful to me for the coming wars, since if my understanding of the text is correct it gives more options other than just hurting, which is pretty fucking important given Ling Qi's Communication/Diplomacy-fu shenanigans.
I still think she's more likely to err in, despite all of her efforts, forgetting the Roots rather than misunderstanding the Palace. (Obviously it's also possible she could do both.)
Cultivators with grand dreams that scrape the very sky, palaces in the air that tumble down, are far more common than the ones that remember the roots... and perhaps for that very reason do they tumble down.
I still think she's more likely to err in, despite all of her efforts, forgetting the Roots rather than misunderstanding the Palace. (Obviously it's also possible she could do both.)
Cultivators with grand dreams that scrape the very sky, palaces in the air that tumble down, are far more common than the ones that remember the roots... and perhaps for that very reason do they tumble down.
Maybe it's because English is my third language, but I don't really see anything about remembering in the roots option. It's palace where Shu Yue says it will be a lesson in sight. I don't think the "roots" here is something like "don't forget where you came from" or "don't forget the perspective of the common people." To quote Shu Yue:
There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves.
It's a lesson in ruination and debasement.
Of course my understanding may be incorrect.
Edit: Also, Roots is, well, cruel. Really cruel.
"There, you would learn of the tools which abrade a person down to their least selves," Shu Yue said. "You have learned to walk in the mind, in the personal Dream of a cultivator. Here you would learn to hurt, with the deliberation of a surgeon's scalpel."
Maybe it's because English is my third language, but I don't really see anything about remembering in the roots option. It's palace where Shu Yue says it will be a lesson in sight. I don't think the "roots" here is something like "don't forget where you came from" or "don't forget the perspective of the common people." To quote Shu Yue:
It's a lesson in ruination and debasement.
Of course my understanding may be incorrect.
Edit: Also, Roots is, well, cruel. Really cruel.
It's violating someone in the most intimate manner possible. I'm not comfortable with that.
I thought from context that the roots are metaphysically the bad part of town, the place where the rot gathers, the dangerous corners of darkness always created by the presence of a bright light, and the ruin and debasement that comes therein. I guess I should look again at the chapter where the Roots are first introduced?
Does anyone have a link to that chapter? Because by now this Quest is absurdly long and so it's easy for me to be misremembering what the Roots symbolized/represented.
But we're not gonna? I mean, we're gonna see how it can go wrong but like it's been said, there's no concept that is not also a weapon. If Ling Qi's Way is gonna be Communication based, she's gonna have to convince other people of it. To make people See Her Point; and Palace of One is very similar in intent. PoS sought unity through a shared Dream- though the execution was fudged, it can serve as an example to LQ on What Not to Do. To enable her to convince other people on her Way without subversion or compulsion.
You sure? That seems like the same sort of thing as writing off the possibility of us seeing our own methods in use in the roots- the assumption that the really bad outcomes just won't happen. I don't know that it is possible to create a dream such as the palace of one, have it have power, and not have the power abused.
If we are to learn about the weaponization of hope, and a lesson in seeing, it's possible the lesson is of how your subordinates can become so enamoured of your dream that they corrupt it. We aren't going to be the only ones using our communication arts, given it goals of them being taken up, and 'without subversion or compulsion is a mortal stance of ours, not inherently part of the arts. We are building new tools and weapons. The hope, our hope, is that they will be used as we would use them. Weaponization of that against our way would be pointing out that we cannot prevent their misuse to compel and subvert without compulsion of our own.
So I think a heart demon is more likely from palace than roots.
Palace does that as well, but additionally it will give her insight into how to strive for an ideal, as well as the pitfalls one risks along the way, like what happened with the Hui.
It does not, I think, have any lessons on how to avoid those pitfalls. Coming away with the lesson that we cannot build anything without others using it for their own purposes is entirely possible.
Overall, I think the assumption that the palace is going to be less dark than the roots is mistaken.
I still think she's more likely to err in, despite all of her efforts, forgetting the Roots rather than misunderstanding the Palace. (Obviously it's also possible she could do both.)
Cultivators with grand dreams that scrape the very sky, palaces in the air that tumble down, are far more common than the ones that remember the roots... and perhaps for that very reason do they tumble down.
LQ has invested a really significant amount of time reassuring herself on the importance of not forgeting her origins not the problems of the little peope.
Most recently, that was one of her most prominent takeaways on the failings of SWD while he observed him during the battle with the General.
So I don't think she is in danger of inadvertedly cut that put of her Way.
This is an argument to do Palace of One now, and not as the climax of LQ as peak green as a sizeable part of the threat wants to.
Any possible faultline in LQ's aspiration of an unified ES through a shared dream/ideal should be detected at this stage.
Not when her way has become inmutable.
This is an argument to do Palace of One now, and not as the climax of LQ as peak green as a sizeable part of the threat wants to.
Any possible faultline in LQ's aspiration of an unified ES through a shared dream/ideal should be detected at this stage.
Not when her way has become inmutable.
I thought from context that the roots are metaphysically the bad part of town, the place where the rot gathers, the dangerous corners of darkness always created by the presence of a bright light, and the ruin and debasement that comes therein. I guess I should look again at the chapter where the Roots are first introduced?
Does anyone have a link to that chapter? Because by now this Quest is absurdly long and so it's easy for me to be misremembering what the Roots symbolized/represented.
It is that, but it is also where the memories of what Hui did to those in their mercy reside. And those memories aren't pleasant. There is even a deeper level, where even more ancient and terrible horrors lie, but we ain't visiting those layers for a while, even with a guide like Shu Yue.
It is that, but it is also where the memories of what Hui did to those in their mercy reside. And those memories aren't pleasant. There is even a deeper level, where even more ancient and terrible horrors lie, but we ain't visiting those layers for a while, even with a guide like Shu Yue.
"Truly?" Shu Yue asked, not judging, merely curious.
Ling Qi pondered the unspoken question. As a teacher, Shu Yue was not one to tell her she was wrong, or even guide her choices much, so it wasn't an oblique rebuke or warning. "I've seen the clashes of high ideals, and the towering perspectives of Sovereigns."
Shu Yue was silent, letting her speak her mind without any urgency. Just a silent, still shadow and a pale face looming over her desk.
"I've seen something of what a Way like mine could like, at those heights. My thought then was that the difference lay in the faes, the individuals of your kin and community. Letting them disappear into the whole… I think that's the start of a poor turn," Ling Qi said. "I'm already bad at remembering people who are too far away. I've engraved the lonely streets into my Way, but I'm not sure its enough," Ling Qi spoke carefully.
"I think seeing what an unrestrained ideal can do to those beneath its notice is a lesson I will benefit from, which will sharpen my own weapons well, such as they are."
She had chosen to make isolation her blade, the privation of the mind. What she had suffered, she had made her weapon. That was the cultivation she had chosen. In every art she had that had the capacity for harm, there were traces of that.
She knew she was going to hate looking into such a pit of ugliness.
But she knew somewhere down in her gut, the coming offensive against the ith would be so much worse.
"So yes, the roots, down where the suffering was all the sharper for its lack of malice," Ling Qi said. "The Palace… I have a feeling I'll need to see it again, but I don't think now is the time. I don't think that journey should be touched by war."
"I will not promise to offer my guidance toward it when you feel ready. A choice made is consequences set," Shu Yue said. "Without such, they are meaningless."
"I understand," Ling Qi said, bowing her head. "May I ask how we will proceed with this? I can't exactly disappear for long."
"I will pose you questions and assignments, observations to make during the days of your stay. When I am satisfied with your efforts, we will descend, and you will examine those answers in the face of the nightmares. This will keep the lessons grounded in the present, as your Way must be," Shu Yue explained."And prevent too much strain and mental pollution from ruining your other efforts."
"Alright then," Ling Qi said. "I accept my choice.
"Then let it be so," Shu Yue said gravely, straightening to their full height. "Another guest arrives."
Ling Qi blinked glancing outside, she saw the position of the sun. "Oh! Yes, Meng Duyi was meant to come by today."
"I will not delay your meeting with the Maker of Harmonies then," Shu Yue said. "We will speak again when you journey north."
Ling Qi lowered her head in acknowledgement. "I will look forward to our lesson."
Shu Yue's head tilted, their spine crackled, their ear left almost horizontal to their shoulder. "I do not know that you should. But it pleases me that you look ahead with clear eyes."
Their form collapsed shadows skittering away into the corners of the room and drifting like falling leaves, dissolving before they ever touched the floor. Ling Qi was once again alone, seemingly so anyway.
"There isn't much reason to drive myself to distraction wondering otherwise is there?" she wondered aloud, not expecting an answer. She didn't receive one. In the absence of Shu Yue's buzzing, empty aura pressing down on her she did feel the slow approach of Meng Duyi, like a winding stream burbling over the smooth river stones sedately and without excitement. She supposed his news must be nothing terrible then.
She gestured as he arrived, and the door opened with a faint click. Meng Duyi strode through without a pause. It was only expected when everyone involved had a certain level of perception.
"Thank you for receiving me Baroness," he said simply, the door swinging shut behind him as easily as it had opened.
"You were my scheduled meeting. I would not dare use your time so poorly as it push it back without good reason," Ling Qi replied.
"And the shadow did not have one to report," Meng Duyi replied agreeably. Shu Yue had not been hiding their presence.
"We were simply discussing lesson plans."
He pursed his lips. "I will not waste time speaking of wariness. You have already chosen a very old path indeed, when it comes to choosing mentors."
Ling Qi smiled faintly. He probably didn't even know about Huisheng. It was still true though. Learning from deadly spirits was perhaps the oldest form of cultivation. "I have slowed down for long enough."
Meng Duyi observed her beneath his antlered headdress, stroking the length of his beard thoughtfully. "If that is your Way. I have made some changes to the arrangement of your quarry. There were poor practices."
"..I'm surprised, I admit. What did Lady Cai miss?"
"Her plan was precision perfect for a more northerly city, but failed to take advantage of the geography and spiritual landscape. It is always easier to move goods by water to begin with. And you are arranging these small canals already. More effective transport back to your construction sites was the start."
"I see," Ling Qi frowned. The Quarry was a ways out from the town center to avoid the noise and dust troubling anyone. "And the run off?"
"There are several drainage techniques and rites to the earth which we use in the western fens which were applicable; the spirits of the earth and stone will avoid mingling with the waters if treated correctly, and the correct cadence and pattern of the stone cutting can induce them to cooperate and ease the labor."
"Can our mortal laborers handle the proper methods without causing more dangerous offense?" Ling Qi asked. She was not well versed in this kind of thing but she knew the horror stories which sometimes filtered back into Tonghou from the mines. Crushing and suffocation, the rage of the injured earth swallowing a dozen men whole or infecting them with choking, wasting sickness.
"I took your arrangement of the fishing rites and adjusted them. Work songs are already becoming commonplace. I've ensured the spoken rite is simple and… catching," Meng Duyi said, resting his hands heavily on the rustling top of his cane. "More expansive operations may require more of the foremen, but I judge neither you nor the Lady Cai will balk at the slight increases in cost. It will train men better for the dangers of spirit stone mining regardless."
He gestured, and a wooden scroll case appeared in his hand. He lay it on her desk and straightened back up.
"I have written a treatise for your Lady and yourself to review along with young Master Zhengui."
+1 Material production per manpower, max Manpower reduced to 3
Iron and Silver mine production Increased by 0.25 per manpower
Ling Qi stood, clasped her hands in front of her chest and bowed. "Thank you, Sir Meng, for your efforts on our part. I regret that I have not had more time to avail myself of your lessons directly."
"Your brother is an attentive enough student. I will be here the decade yet, I am aware of the demands on your time. In the end, my lessons are yours to take," Meng Duyi replied serenely.
She supposed that was true. In the end it was her time she was spending, focusing on other things. "Still, I hope we might find the time soon. May I ask if you received the surveyors notes regarding the cultivation site on the upper cliffs?"
"This Cathedral of Winds? A well chosen name, the danger there is leaking a slight taint into the river but if you are taking care of the matter soon there will be no trouble from it. The flow of impurity is too dilute as things are."
"Good," Ling Qi said, feeling some relief. The last thing she needed was a spreading sickness here."Sir Meng, may I ask you to look into the construction materials for the shrine we intend to place down there? I would like a professional opinion on whether they will suffice for the spirit of the crystals when it awakens."
"The spirit is dormant, and its flows tainted, it is difficult to make any such judgment with certainty, even for I," Meng Duyi replied. "But I will look over what you have gathered and ensure there are no obvious problems."
"Thank you, Sir Meng," Ling Qi said. "I need to prepare for the expedition there, but I hope in the aftermath, I will find some time to hear your wisdom."
He hummed to himself, stroking his beard. "I suppose the communion with the spirit there and the clean up work may be a useful venue for an introductory lesson. Though, if I may…"
"Please," Ling Qi said, curious as to what he was going to say.
"The room was chosen well. The balcony facing east, to receive the strong yang of the dawning sun each morning, but if this is to be your primary office, it will not be enough, given your nature," the geomancer said, eyes panning around the room. "Yin pools in your presence, while you are suited to it, it will make your subordinates sluggish and fatigued. I suggest looking into other sources of yang, an art piece with brighter colors, perhaps a more intense lantern for light. Summer aspected floral arrangements may also work."
Ling Qi tilted her head curiously."...Would a muse of the Dreaming Moon counterbalance it at all?"
"To an extent," Meng Duyi said, raising an eyebrow. "But I would suggest some brighter colors in the halls and nearby offices regardless."
"I will see to it, though I really do like more muted colors," Ling Qi said, peering around the room. Some spots of brightness wouldn't hurt, especially if they were mostly in the halls outside. Some flower arrangements would probably make everything cheerier.
"For your own space, it may be fine, so long as you do not carelessly keep any subordinates working in the interior for too long, you yourself are a great attractor of Yin energy, amplifying what is in your surroundings. Mortals and low cultivators have much less constitution for concentrated energies than you or I."
Just another small thing to remember, Ling Qi supposed… It was no wonder that a higher realm could forget and trample others without any malice. "I'll keep that in mind… its only a leaders duty to take care of their subordinates."
"Easy words to say, easy words to forget," Meng Duyi said agreeably. "We will speak again when your expedition is done then, Baroness?"
"We will, thank you, Sir Meng," Ling Qi replied, looking back down at the work on her desk. She just needed to finish these reports for Renxiang and then she could go out to wait for and meet Suyin… and Sixiang.
Time to get in the vote for the fief projects as the rest of the turn will be a little packed. As usual, vote by plan.
[ ] Fief plan
-[ ] Project 1
-[ ] Project 2
*****
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*****
Expand Hamlet Administration
Your force of clerks has been confined to the central manor and heavily supervision from Cai renxiang long enough, it is time to loosen the reigns, grant them more duties and interactions with the public and expand your governing capabilities.
Cost: 15 Agriculture, 10 Material. 1 month Grant an additional project slot per turn.
"I took your arrangement of the fishing rites and adjusted them. Work songs are already becoming commonplace. I've ensured the spoken rite is simple and… catching,"
