I can't find that (that we get a significant debuff to stealth that only get us to unsure) in the primer of stealth. Do you have a source ?
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
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I can't find that (that we get a significant debuff to stealth that only get us to unsure) in the primer of stealth. Do you have a source ?
Black Noise
Curious
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It's a valid concern but I described what the art is doing now, if it doubles down on any of those more than usual it's fine since the art covers areas we have little-to-no focus in otherwise.
I'm not sure if you're ignoring what I wrote or if I'm not communicating properly; 2 points here:
- Tech 2 is an instant buff to be used in conjunction with a spiritual attack (like, say, most of FVM or FSS). It does not require any check to pass as per this bit of WoG:
the question said:the answer said: - Aria is not usable immediately with HC (see: antlion fight) and neither is Echoes, those are setup arts that provide a long lasting combat buff. They're good and in a serious fight we'd want them up but they serve a different role from instant buffs.
- First off, while the reading here of how much stealth is enough to reset a target to "unaware" is ambiguous and could use a WoG to clarify, the tech is useful even without the stealth reset aspect on account of giving +sp.avoid and +sp.atk.
- Next, given our progressively increasing dex, stealth skill, as well as access to a host of combat stealth increasing effects (SCS, FVM), we should be running effective stealth a rank higher than any peer save those outright dedicated to counter-stealth with Wits/Perceptiveness and the Arts (multiple) to match.
- I do agree that as a standalone art for a non-stealth focus build ENM is less useful, but we're well positioned to take advantage (especially if we also pick up MNO/DLS down the line for perception debuffing).
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since the next turn is being discussed now:
Currently the next 2 turns are kind of being considered together as there is a chance that we could get Green 3 by the end of turn 5, if we are lucky.
To keep the arts we have and want equipped we need new 6 meridians , which means we need 3 AP for that. We want 4 jobs in turn 4 so that we can afford another pill, if a good one comes into the market.
If we want to get the bonus xp to Sable Grace then it would be better to train 1 AP SCS per turn to finish it. We need 5 AP to finish TRF and another 5 to cap PLR.
The above uses up 27 of 40 AP.
If we do 8 AP Physical then we are at 35/40. If we want an okayish chance to finish CDE then we need 3-4 AP for it, So we are either at 38/40 or 39/40.
We could fill the remaining slot(s) with jobs since another major+minor pill combo costs 90 SP which takes about 6 jobs to earn. That means we dont train any new art.
We could go for ENM, for it you can expect to get to the art level equal to the AP invested (up to 4), i.e. ENM 3 for 3 AP, ENM 2 for 2 AP,...
and since it is being discussed: if we go for AFL then we can expect the same (again up to 4 AP). This art uses the same meridians as ENM, with the one difference being that ENM needs a 3rd Leg at ENM5, while AFL needs it at AFL3.
We have 1 Leg blank and want to open 2 more. 1 is needed for PLR, so the last 2 can go to ENM/AFL. This means that AF can at most be trained to AFL2 while ENM can at most be trained to ENM4.
if we want 2 or more AP for ENM/AFL/extra jobs then we need to either sacrifice the 4th CDE AP or a physical cultivation AP or both.
If we take neither ENM or AFL then the 3rd Meridian AP is no longer needed, which means that 4 CDE + 2 extra jobs is still possible.
Currently the next 2 turns are kind of being considered together as there is a chance that we could get Green 3 by the end of turn 5, if we are lucky.
To keep the arts we have and want equipped we need new 6 meridians , which means we need 3 AP for that. We want 4 jobs in turn 4 so that we can afford another pill, if a good one comes into the market.
If we want to get the bonus xp to Sable Grace then it would be better to train 1 AP SCS per turn to finish it. We need 5 AP to finish TRF and another 5 to cap PLR.
The above uses up 27 of 40 AP.
If we do 8 AP Physical then we are at 35/40. If we want an okayish chance to finish CDE then we need 3-4 AP for it, So we are either at 38/40 or 39/40.
We could fill the remaining slot(s) with jobs since another major+minor pill combo costs 90 SP which takes about 6 jobs to earn. That means we dont train any new art.
We could go for ENM, for it you can expect to get to the art level equal to the AP invested (up to 4), i.e. ENM 3 for 3 AP, ENM 2 for 2 AP,...
and since it is being discussed: if we go for AFL then we can expect the same (again up to 4 AP). This art uses the same meridians as ENM, with the one difference being that ENM needs a 3rd Leg at ENM5, while AFL needs it at AFL3.
We have 1 Leg blank and want to open 2 more. 1 is needed for PLR, so the last 2 can go to ENM/AFL. This means that AF can at most be trained to AFL2 while ENM can at most be trained to ENM4.
if we want 2 or more AP for ENM/AFL/extra jobs then we need to either sacrifice the 4th CDE AP or a physical cultivation AP or both.
If we take neither ENM or AFL then the 3rd Meridian AP is no longer needed, which means that 4 CDE + 2 extra jobs is still possible.
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
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yeah, we do. One of those being the Zeqing option, possibly contending with the Mom option
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Inserted tally
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Zeqing is the priority IMO. We just finished FVM and FSS, we need the advanced insights and there is a real risk that Hanyi get eaten. Narratively, there isn't a better time ( or a least worst time, depending on your point of view).
First, thanks for the wog. In this case I retract what I was saying about the second tech.
Fair enough, but if we are looking for an art providing instant buffs would we be better served by learning an art dedicated to it in the archive 2nd level or rely on joyous toast (as PLR going to be our bread and butter art for a long while given how archive arts are much worse) ?
PLR toast is significantly better (rank up), and so would be the archive 2 tech. The archive art just require us to wait one or two month (as it's disponible freely from the rank 775 and down). As we just got a very significant power boost, I don't see the use of spending multiple actions training an art for a tech that will swiftly fall behind.
The sp avoid and sp attack would be significantly greater by using FSS techs tho.
Secondly if we are running one rank higher stealth we do not need that tech as we never get to the point where we have unsure ennemies. That was my entire point.
Lastly once again we are gonna get the right to enter the archive 2 very soon so I don't see us getting a lot of the current arts. If it were up to me I would prefer not getting any non musical art from the archive but people are pushing strongly for a stealth art of some kind, of which AFL is the best currently.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Toast is significantly better, and it will only get moreso, but Evening Breeze Flourish has three minor advantages there: it's cheaper (might not stay cheaper though), it doesn't need to have IPF set up first (but we'll want IPF as a main part of most our fights in the future) but above all it's more 'stealthy' than toast.
If we have better stealth than enemy it's a 'retry' as well as can help to re-establish stealth after an earlier attack, too.
The issue with AFL is that AFL as the better stealth tech is that AFL is much more larceny centred, and will make it more likely to get a Stealth upgrade to B rank that is larceny based, while upgrade from ENM is much more likely to be 'hide' based.
That, and ENM passives are immediately useful, and its techs are immediately useful. An archive 2 arts will also have the issue of PLR being much stronger by then (PLR6+ with B Dance likely) and as such will have to contend to some much steeper competition.
Black Noise
Curious
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- About 1AU from Sol
Ok so point by point:
- We don't have the time or room to look for an art that solely provides instant combat buffs. Same with a pure Fade art.
- PLR is strong but to use JT we need to setup a B-rank extremely showy tech. This is expensive and time-consuming as all hell.
- Archive 2 arts aren't gonna be magic, their advantage over Archive 1 is a higher max scaling, not quality. At Appraisal they should have similar in power to Archive 1.
- FSS Aria does indeed provide sp.def and sp.atk (via debuff), but it's it's about as anti-stealth as PLR. FSS is also not a Fade art so it's bonus there is more incidental, it won't actually matter when up against a tech-based bypass effect.
Last 2 points are more questions to ask yrs for clarification. The impression I have is:
> "unaware" is a status we can lose after we get discovered once, attack or are hit, and regaining it is very much a non-trivial assumption, but is an effect ENM provides much like SCS erased our mundane physical tracks.
> in a vacuum AFL may provide a stronger stealth buff than ENM, and said buff may apply to "hiding" stealth and not just "larceny", but it should provide little-to-no additional benefit in terms of physical stealth when used in conjunction with SCS's OWS, where we literally become an immaterial shadow capable of teleporting around.
EDIT: worth noting that we very much want "unaware" to apply since SCS gives us another +10 hit against such targets (for an effective +20 over "unsure").
So to @yrsillar, can you clarify these 2 points?
- Do we get to keep the "Unaware" state after attacking or if stealth gets broken otherwise, and how would ENM work with it? (e.g would it allow us to get "unaware" even against opponents within 1 rank of our stealth).
- Is AFL's stealth buff one to hiding, larceny, or both, and if it buffs hiding would it directly stack with SCS/OWS?
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Based on this, I would propose a plan that looks something like this for each month:
- 4 AP Spiritual
- 4 AP Physical
- 1 AP SCS
- 2.5 AP TRF
- 2.5 AP PLR
- 1.5 AP Meridians
- 2.5 AP Sect Jobs
- 2 AP CDE
I'll note that, even without any new arts, we can't fit everything we want to do. We aren't full up on Sect Jobs, there is no challenge research, no exploration, etc. We already have our hands full; why try to pick up MORE things to juggle?
First of all for the upgrade, DLS is far better, being both grinning moon and explicitely an art based upon a trial made by that moon.
For the toast comparison, I don't think any use of an offensive art is gonna be stealthy.
I agree for the time but I don't believe we need to get a fade art right now, and getting it on the second level of the archive allow us to train fade for a far longer time (up until the tournament, which is when fade will truly be relevant).
That tech is gonna be our bread and butter for a long time given how great it is compared to sect given alternatives. So it's not a big cost as it's something we will almost always have in a fight.
Higher scaling is something we want if we want to use it in the tournament. An appraisal art from the archive is gonna be completely outdated by the time the tournament come. A 4th stage one might be usefull tho. If the goal is to minimize time lost training arts, better not train anymore 1st archive arts.
FSS echoes give a rank up to our darkness attack and a rank down to ennemy ones if I remember well. That's pretty dang good.
As for stealth once again I don't think one can be stealthy when using a lot of qi to attack someone else.
We'll never manage to fit in everything we want to do. Our hands will always be full. This is the nature of any given system that relies on Action Points or a derivative thereof.
Arts are the most direct way to increase our available strength and have knock-on effects by improving the training of related skills, greatly encouraging a derived skill to develop from the lessons taught by the Art in question.
As Far as ENM vs DLS is concerned, ENM directly boosts Stealth and Spiritual Hit, which DLS doesn't do. DLS is an excellent defensive Art, but it isn't currently focused on Stealth or offense, while ENM does both of those.
ENM's a stopgap for training Fade and a shoo-in for our Stealth Suite - one piece of what I consider the 'minimum' of SCS, ENM, and MNO for a 'complete' set.
SCS counters physical tracking, MNO counters spiritual tracking, and ENM provides us with a soft 'reset' button should an infiltration/scouting mission go awry.
I'm hoping to use ENM to bump our Fade to the Mid-C range and then push it to B with DLS, ideally with DLS doing for Fade what SCS did for Dodge. It'll depend upon what we get out of the Second level of the Archive, if anything.
Err, we kinda do need a Fade Art if we want to advance into Fade B in a reasonable timeframe. Arts push learning Skills as a kind of training wheel - see the way SCS taught us Sable Grace - and going without access to Fade B sooner means we won't have the option to hit Fade A - and our base Domain improves the S. Avoid, S. Armor, and C. Perception of allies by one rank, up to LQ's.
Having Fade A means we can plausibly have S-rank Spiritual Avoid, meaning that our closest allies (who we will most likely group with for the Inter-Sect Tournament) will obtain the most benefit from our Domain.
A Second Level Art won't be particularly relevant, either, given that we'll most likely master it by Green 4 - and we'll be Green 5 by the Tournament, barring a serious fuck-up on our part.
Tournament's turn ~19, after all, and we should be Green 3 by no later than turn 6 and Green 4 by no later than turn 11, resulting in Green 5 by turn 16-17. That leaves enough time to polish up the last levels of Archive ~3 Arts (if any) and bring whatever else we have to their Green 5 soft-caps, basically skipping base cultivation those last few months.
Wait we don't actually need a fade art now. That change everything.
It has a stealth keyword and provide stealth as a passive.
Nah, we can train fade without fade art. While it's better to have one (33% more points) it's far from indispensable.
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We still have to get insight to derive a B skill, though, which we've definitely seen arts help with.
If I correctly understand discord discussion, it is
4 Spiritual
2 Merridians
1 SCS (for dodge training)
1 TRF (+4 action at turn 5 to complete it)
1 ENM/DLS (for fade training, (90% it will be ENM for combat stealth/good passives/good techs))
1 CDE
1-3 PLR (presence, dance)
4/6 Jobs (for pill so we can get Spiritual 3 at turn 6)
? For physical and other stuff
4 Spiritual
2 Merridians
1 SCS (for dodge training)
1 TRF (+4 action at turn 5 to complete it)
1 ENM/DLS (for fade training, (90% it will be ENM for combat stealth/good passives/good techs))
1 CDE
1-3 PLR (presence, dance)
4/6 Jobs (for pill so we can get Spiritual 3 at turn 6)
? For physical and other stuff
We don't even have a Fade Art now. This means that anything targeting our Spirit is almost guaranteed to hit, due to our not having any techniques to contest it with, and any damage dealing effects are going to hurt while any debuff will require a dispel, meaning Sixiang is spending her time providing defensive dispels instead of offensive dispels.
It does have Stealth as a keyword. It does not provide Stealth as a passive. It provides S. Avoid, S. Armor, and Resist as passives at rank 1. It wouldn't surprise me if it does provide Stealth passively at higher levels due to that Stealth keyword.
We can, but if we're not training a Fade-keyword Art at the same time we should spend the training AP elsewhere, to maximize our skill/attribute training effectiveness or shore up other gaps in our education and combat skills.
A Fade Art is only not immediately necessary if you expect us to not encounter anybody with Spiritual Attacks as we attempt to challenge up the ranks these next few turns to get a better Argent Vent and access to higher floors of the Archives.
The most direct way to increase our available strength is by improving improving the arts we already use, not training new ones. Look at this last turn! We spent almost twice as much effort on learning SES + HDW as we did finishing FSS; and can you really say that the former came even close to matching the latter in terms of effect?
Of course our time is limited. The reason I bring the question up is to highlight that training new arts is not free - it displaces other, important things! If we want to grow in strength, the best thing to do right now is push for Green Foundation, and then raising EPC/PLR/HDW/SES to that level, developing our domain and leaving us in a flexible position for deciding where to go from there. However, every diversion we take before then is going to cost us in flexibility and time later. If we decide to pick up an art now, that means we have to drop something to make room. Maybe we drop sect missions, and then don't have the SP to get pills later, slowing us down. Maybe we drop training PLR or TRF or Physical, and then those actions are just pushed back, locking up our time at Green Foundation. Etc.
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So what you're saying is that most of these arts don't matter because these arts will need to be replaced by the time we get to the tournament - which, in turn, means that we should be looking to acquire arts in order to specialize our skills, not for whatever their techs do. In that case, DLS is our best option because it is specifically a Fade art, whereas ENM is a Stealth art. That also implies we want AFL to get a Flight specialty for Athletics. Like, our goal right now shouldn't be trying to fill holes in our art suite, because we're going to need to do that again as soon as we start getting closer to the tournament. Our goal right now should be to finish out our current arts, find successor arts where we can, and develop specialized skills so that we have a solid foundation for the arts we learn closer to the tournament. I guess that if it costs less AP to advance a skill by cultivating an art, we should do that, but it's the skill we care about not the art.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
I do suggest that we wait for Cai quality arts to arrive before spending time on something from the archive. Archive arts are, by thread's decision, average, and useful for shoring up glaring weaknesses.
Well, we need to see what weaknesses will be actually left once we pick our share of ducal level arts.
Well, we need to see what weaknesses will be actually left once we pick our share of ducal level arts.
Black Noise
Curious
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- About 1AU from Sol
This is a nice sentiment but it's not fully true. None of the plans discussed so far sacrifice any of our remaining core arts or a shot at turn 5 Foundation. The most likely sacrifice is one of Physical which... Isn't a great and terrible cost. We've seen this very turn that the right pill can make up for multiple months of progress, especially in Base cultivation.
Training new arts is a perfectly valid way to increase our available strength and versatility. One that also serves to progress our skills and Domain.
On a further note, holding the torch for archive 2 arts is putting the cart before the horse since what we need is a temporary patchwork of filled holes and minimally viable "useful" skills that'll hold out until we've gotten successors for our Core arts and had our pick of Cai Archive arts. After that we can fill whatever blanks remain with archive 3 arts, which would go on to serve us in the tournament towards the end of year 2.
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I specifically addressed the cost of Physical in my post - not sure how you could have missed it.
Yes, we don't suffer in a great and terrible way - but we lose time. If we don't work on Physical now, we WILL have to spend more actions working on it later. This isn't going to be solved by a magical pill; if such a pill becomes available we will buy it regardless, so no matter what, not training Physical now means more work on it later.
That's a strong argument for DLS indeed.
Uh, so it does not. My mistake. Sorry.