Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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MoI exists to address egregious instances of such

MoI seems to exist to stamp out non-imperial cultivation methods, since those tend to involve a lot of mutilation and human sacrifice. I didn't think they cared about much else except as it intersects with that.

They can only really buckle down, toss some people under the bus and wait for it all to blow over
Except indications are that the MoL are targetting the Liu specifically, and this just gave them the excuse they were looking for, so this isn't likely to blow over
Even if the MoL don't manage to get them today, they'll just continue to tighten the noose until they do

The trick is, you need someone better to replace whoever you remove.

Shenhua could do it because she literally took over personally for all the people she purged in the big tree. But we don't have a spare viscount lying around and the city in question is too far from the centers of power to be directly ruled by a higher realm until replacements are found.

So I think practicality is going to limit the amount of blowback the liu suffer.
 
Generally speaking imperial law avoids interceding into family affairs regarding it as a political unit which has authority over its own internal decisions, and is extremely loathe to intrude on them, due to the backlash this would get from the nobility. While a clan might theoretically be in trouble if they tried to use some gross villain shit to like spiritually compel or do gross physical harm to a member to get compliance, the soft social and financial power a clan can exert over its members is generally enough to compel obedience under threat of heavy censure or expulsion. So... no under the law there is not actually anything illegal about what initially happened to Qingge. The blacklisting and harassment could be under abuse of mortal laws, but that would definitely require a sympathetic judge and probably would fall on the lackey's enforcing it directly.
 
Noted. I'm not sure it actually changes the core situation though, since I don't think anyone (including me) ever expected to see him punished for Qingge's direct situation. Too hard to prove even if it was more overtly illegal.

I just expect that if anyone looked into him in depth they'd find plenty of other stuff to punish him for.
 
Yep, the Liu and the He and this entire scenario are just kinda mundane realities that naturally result in the existing legal system and culture, I feel. It's so much worse than the Liu being particularly evil, this is just normal, these little sad stories where people gotta do duty to the clan at the expense of their own interests. This situation which was "arranged marriage minus the marriage bit but still elevates both daughter and clan in the ways that the people involved actually care about" at its most generous, and at worst was "lifelong forced prostitution you're supposed to be grateful for". And Qingge just didn't have the opportunity to say no, and so she ran, and then she was punished beyond the point where any modern reader would rightly be horrified by. Because this culture cares so deeply about the pretense of a clan's noble honor that you do heinous shit to people who threaten that pretense. Qingge committed the grave political attack of implying that actually she doesn't want to be a concubine to her social superior, and so she gets pushed right into the gutter forever, so everyone knows what happens when you try to embarrass this clan and damage their reputation.

If you want future Qingge's to be able to say No to an offer like this because she thinks it'll make her life worse instead of better according to what she wants, and to be able to do that while expecting to not be punished enough to ruin her life for disobedience to clan interests, you need a lot more of a legal presence sticking their noses into clan affairs and dictating how they do things. And boy do people really hate that. It's a really tough nut to crack with very deep cultural roots, but a worthwhile one. In a better world no one would be able to do anything to convince Qingge to take that offer except to offer her further rewards for doing so.
 
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I mean what people are forgetting is that the Liu will probably eventually get theirs, not because of the Qingge situation but because they are doing (or at least covering up) super shady shit with corpse immortals and turning mortals into cultivation drugs.
www.royalroad.com

Exorcist of Tonghou - Tales of Destiny

The pungent coppery scent of blood was almost unnoticeable beneath the miasma of anguish and hate that hung heavy in the air. I grimaced as I carefully (...)
 
"Whoever you are, you are overstepping yourself sir. I am working directly under the Vice Minister of the Treasury. You are being far too rude. I demand your name and rank."

...

"Senior Magistrate of the Central Valley, Hong Zhaofu is before you, child. And you have little idea how long I have searched for an excuse to compel a full audit against your branch."
"Son? You just said the magic words."

"Is that... a good thing?"

"No."
 
MoI seems to exist to stamp out non-imperial cultivation methods, since those tend to involve a lot of mutilation and human sacrifice. I didn't think they cared about much else except as it intersects with that.
You would be incorrect

The MoI's mission statement is ensuring the stability of the Empire by acting as its internal police
The duties this covers are broad

We can see this in the story updates themselves:

No, the real concern was that this day would also bring an inspection from an agent of the Ministry of Integrity. Their agents were… unsettling at the best of times, and could not be offended at any cost. He had spent the previous week going over his records, double and triple checking for accuracy in his accounts. He had never allowed any truly large indiscretions in the decade since he had been appointed to this post, and he would not allow that to change this year.

Still, there was always some young fool of a clerk who thought it possible to get away with skimming from the coffers meant for the Imperial Court. Xiao had one such foolish young man in the towns cells now, ready to hand over to the Agent when they arrived. It was unfortunate, for such a talented young man to meet his end over such a trifle, but corruption was not tolerated in the slightest by the current Imperial Court.
Zhu Qing strode down the misty street, hands clasped behind her back, never needing to so much as slow her steps to avoid the early morning foot traffic. The sight of her plain black and silver gown, white streaked hair fluttering in a nonexistent breeze, and the featureless white jade mask concealing her features was enough to cause all those before her to give way with a hasty bow and a murmured apology. All was as it should be. She was fairly pleased with this city; since she had been assigned as the inspector of this region by the Ministry not once had she been forced to take any truly drastic action. The mortal governors were hard working, honest, and obedient to the edicts of the Imperial Court, as they should be. So much more so than the nobles and ministers of the more central provinces, who far too often assumed their own prosperity and position granted them the right to defy Imperial law. Perhaps it was that the difficult life on the border did not afford them the time for such indiscretions.

The Agent smiled behind her mask; not that they were without flaw. No one was, mortal or otherwise. She knew the minister had caught a thief already, due to the informants she had in his manor, and she was pleased to know that Minister Xiao was still as proactive as ever. She would need to inspect everything personally, of course. The man was only mortal, and he would miss things. She was confident that he would never need feel the touch of her Reaper, though. The man was too sensible for that.
These are most prominent among the older ascended, but there has been a number of ascended in the current dynasty. In beginning to discuss them one must begin with the most important of our age, Emperor An, who became the Inexorable Justice, the judge of vice and sin which our great Empire had too long been lacking, and whose eyes have granted the inheritors of his great work in the Ministry of Integrity the eyes to ensure that no criminals, rebels, or traitors may escape from the punishment they have earned for perfidy and corruption.

Su Ling chuckled and it was both fond and sad. "She said the old spirits would take away dumbass nosy children too curious for their own good."

"Did they?" Ling Qi asked, tilting her head.

"Dunno, but most folks stayed away, made it a good hiding spot when I really needed shelter," Su Ling shrugged. "But… guess it is where I met the Ministry of Integrity guy. So maybe Gran wasn't wrong."

Ling Qi shared a mirthless laugh with her friend. If you looked at it that way. "How did that go?"

"He let me think my swinging log trap got him, then appeared behind me with his hands on my shoulders. Dramatic fucker," Su Ling laughed.


But the most comprehensive breakdown of the MoI is here:
www.royalroad.com

Bonus: The Ministry of Integrity - Forge of Destiny

Commerce, Communication, Law, and Spiritual Affairs. These four great institutions have been the bulwark of Imperial governance since the first dynasty. (...)

Even less popular but which many argued was just as necessary were the reforms within the Celestial Peaks, allowing agents of the Ministry to chastise the families of young noble scions whose unvirtuous and crass behavior damaged the peace and prosperity of the Emperor's dominion. This portion of the Ministry's program remains contentious to this day, but the uptick in economic activity in those regions where such behaviors have been curbed shows their efficacy.

- The looks upon the faces of those silk pants when their childish tantrums began to have actual consequences. I will treasure the memories always.

-- I will treasure more the looks of their bellowing sires when they found that their petty tyranny had reached the ears of the Emperor.

--- It would be impolitic to mention further than this, however satisfactory the duty.
However, under Emperor Si, a fifth ministry was founded. Headed by then-Crown Prince An, shortly after his success in the South Emerald Seas, it began as a subdivision of the Ministry of Law. The wise prince envisioned the group as agents empowered by the Imperial seal to not only simply interpret law and advise a land's liege lords but also to punish gross violations of the Imperial will and the orderly operation of society.

In those early days, the agency's primary focus was on matters of finance. Over the many millennia of the Empire's rule, it is an unfortunate truth that a great many cities, towns, and villages had become lax in paying their dues to the Throne. The first task, then, was to investigate the aging infrastructure of the Ministry of Commerce and find where the rot had set in at their worst and where the troubles were caused by malicious and disloyal individuals.

Truly, it was a glad day for the Imperial Seat when their revenues doubled in a matter of decades, merely from performing simple upkeep. At last, the damage wrought in the declining days of the second dynasty were set to rights, and this accomplishment earned the Crown Prince many accolades. Indeed, this accomplishment can be credited with truly solidifying his position as Crown Prince.

- Putting it too lightly. The Imperial tax code was a barely coherent morass of incoherent language and special exceptions. It is a minor miracle that the Throne accumulated any income at all before our reforms.

-- True, but irrelevant for the document. Implication of outright incompetence and malice in past and present institutions will not play well, even under current conditions. Better to allow the blame to fall upon generational rot.
When the Prince was crowned as Emperor An, the remit of the agency was expanded to include other crimes. Abuses of the mortal populace, such as barred forms of medicine and cultivation research, were rooted out. Smuggling activities and proscribed cults were curtailed and dismantled, and those disloyal nobles guilty of funding or participating in such crimes punished.
Many were the tales of whole clans and towns wiped from the map by crazed individuals of high talent who had stumbled across good fortune or the sponsorship of some malign spirit.

- So many talents lost. I weep for what the Empire has missed.

-- While many began with legitimate grievance, those talents who could not restrain themselves once they had a taste of power and revenge became beasts.

--- The Ministry cannot be faulted for those who became twisted. I am proud to have been turned from the path of mindless vengeance and power seeking.


They would emerge, wreak destruction, and die with great difficulty when the provincial duke's forces came down upon them. Many even tried to set themselves up as petty warlords or proclaimed that they would usurp the Throne itself! Some, in less well run reaches of the Empire, even maintained long-standing "bandit kingdoms," avoiding being crushed by ducal forces by making themselves inconvenient to attack.

The Ministry of Integrity was the solution to this perennial trouble. They solved the problem not merely through violence, although much is whispered of Minister Sima, who, it is said, ended the greatest of the bandit kingdoms in a single night and slew the mad violet realm Lu Gong, ending his rampage for "vengeance" against the peoples of the Cao clan and freeing the women bound to him. No, the true solution to the problem was the Wise Emperor An's expansion of the Great Sect system.

Talent for cultivation cannot be fully controlled. Among the high bloodlines of the Empire, average talent is nearly guaranteed, but high talent individuals have always appeared in the strangest of places. It followed, then, that the reason for so many individuals to take a dark course in their life lay in their lack of opportunity. Find the talented and provide them with education and a place in society, and there would be no more petty bandit kings and false emperors.

It fell to the Ministry of Integrity to identify these individuals before their paths could diverge from virtue.

It is troubling to say that many opposed this decree and the opening of the Great Sects to the common born. Although it is understandable that high lords and ladies would not wish their children to mingle with potentially dangerous individuals, it is the duty of the nobility to educate and care for the common man. This duty has been oft neglected, and the problems, Emperor An reasoned, arose from this shirking.

So it fell to the Throne and the Ministry to make up for this shortfall. To reassure the nobility of the Empire, Emperor An assigned his own daughter, Princess Xiang, who had taken up duties in the Ministry, to lead and coordinate the divination teams and surveillance of the first generation of "common talents."

- Agent Xiang was truly among our best. It is a shame that she cannot be Empress and Minister both.

-- It is her efforts which saved many of my agents from the dark paths they were on before being turned and recruited into the Ministry.

--- I would approve some expansion of this portion of the text. Further support for the Empress' reforms would be a useful side effect of the document.

In the current day, the Ministry of Integrity has left much of the chaos and bloodshed behind. As an investigatory agency, they are without peer, seeking out and resolving snarls in the execution of Imperial law. Under the watch of the Ministry, taxes are paid, order is kept, and the integrity of the Empire is upheld.
 
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He was a first realm cultivator, among the most skilled in the clan.
I actually laughed out loud at this. Actually going for revenge would clearly be harassment of the weak and powerless. I don't doubt for a second that the Liu would drop the guy and the whole of the He clan like a lizard shedding its tail if it could divert the eyes of the Cai clan away from them.
 
I actually laughed out loud at this. Actually going for revenge would clearly be harassment of the weak and powerless. I don't doubt for a second that the Liu would drop the guy and the whole of the He clan like a lizard shedding its tail if it could divert the eyes of the Cai clan away from them.

The He Clan seems to operate on the same principle as most Clans.

There's their "normal level" and then the Patriarch Level.

Qi's mother thought at one point of having met an ancient-looking He Patriarch who was said to be two-hundred years old... IE, a Second Realm. This means the "normal level" is just 1st Realm, various degrees from lower to upper First Realm.
 
Generally speaking imperial law avoids interceding into family affairs regarding it as a political unit which has authority over its own internal decisions, and is extremely loathe to intrude on them, due to the backlash this would get from the nobility. While a clan might theoretically be in trouble if they tried to use some gross villain shit to like spiritually compel or do gross physical harm to a member to get compliance, the soft social and financial power a clan can exert over its members is generally enough to compel obedience under threat of heavy censure or expulsion. So... no under the law there is not actually anything illegal about what initially happened to Qingge. The blacklisting and harassment could be under abuse of mortal laws, but that would definitely require a sympathetic judge and probably would fall on the lackey's enforcing it directly.
Damn, are we really going to need to intervene personally to see justice done about this? By which I mean the Liu young master dead, the Liu's precious family reputation dragged into the gutter where it belongs, and the He clan never having power over anyone ever again.
 
The He Clan seems to operate on the same principle as most Clans.

There's their "normal level" and then the Patriarch Level.

Qi's mother thought at one point of having met an ancient-looking He Patriarch who was said to be two-hundred years old... IE, a Second Realm. This means the "normal level" is just 1st Realm, various degrees from lower to upper First Realm.
It was mentioned very early in Forge that the average guard officer* in a interior city was late gold. So I'm guessing that's around the drop off point for nobles who don't need strong servants to stop investing in them. Plenty enough power to keep the mortals in line and to learn a few petty Arts to help with their jobs, but still weak enough that they're a gnat compared to any noble worth his salt.

* I don't know if it meant police officer or officer as in rank.
 
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so the society is, unsurprisingly, family centered. when i make a fictional culture, one of the things i consider is what the society is centered on - individual-centered, family-centered, community-centered, national-centered. i pick two and try to build what the culture would be like from there. i would say that the empire is individual and family centered. individuals are always gonna be the core of society just because of how cultivation work, while outside of powerful cultivators society is centered on families, specially the ruling families
 
It was mentioned very early in Forge that the average guard officer* in a interior city was late gold. So I'm guessing that's around the drop off point for nobles who don't need strong servants to stop investing in them. Plenty enough power to keep the mortals in line and to learn a few petty Arts to help with their jobs, but still weak enough that they're a gnat compared to any noble worth his salt.

* I don't know if it meant police officer or officer as in rank.

I read the same bit, and I read it as 'officer of the guard.' Like a Captain, though maybe not the Commander of a city guard or whatever else.
 
Damn, are we really going to need to intervene personally to see justice done about this? By which I mean the Liu young master dead, the Liu's precious family reputation dragged into the gutter where it belongs, and the He clan never having power over anyone ever again.
If Ling Qi finds out about the Liu using humans for cultivation ingredients and tells the right people, the Ministry of Integrity is going to descend on Tonghou like this:

I've been given to understand that they have a zero tolerance policy for that kind of shit.
 
I mean what people are forgetting is that the Liu will probably eventually get theirs, not because of the Qingge situation but because they are doing (or at least covering up) super shady shit with corpse immortals and turning mortals into cultivation drugs.
www.royalroad.com

Exorcist of Tonghou - Tales of Destiny

The pungent coppery scent of blood was almost unnoticeable beneath the miasma of anguish and hate that hung heavy in the air. I grimaced as I carefully (...)
That Liu staring down Wu Bolin there like

Everyone investigating Tonghou before Qingge like
 
Appreciate you pulling all the quotes together, but I guess I meant in terms of what it is about foreigners it is that they care about containing.
I mean...
Those quotes that I've pulled together make it rather clear that they do, in fact, care about a lot more than just foreigners and their cultivations methods

So I'm not sure what you're saying here

Like there is literally multiple quotes right there about how they police the Empire's nobles for "unvirtuous and crass" behavior
Or how they are responsible for ensuring that people pay the Empire's taxes properly and root out economic malfeasance
Or how they were outright responsible for reforming the Empire's tax code
Or how they're constantly working to prevent any backsliding back into the era when any random Cultivator with enough luck and Talent would destabilize the local government and set up some kind of petty bandit kingdom or pull a Xianxia protag and try to become the next Sage Emperor
 
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