So your response to a post listing out all the internal matters that the MoI concerns itself with
Which was itself a response to a post that stated you didn't think the MoI cared about anything except foreign cultivation methods:
MoI seems to exist to stamp out non-imperial cultivation methods, since those tend to involve a lot of mutilation and human sacrifice. I didn't think they cared about much else except as it intersects with that.
Which was itself a response to a post of mine that was part of a broader discussion in general about how much the MoI would or wouldn't care about the current conflict MoL is having with the Liu
Since the Liu are engaging in the kind of behavior that the MoI have historically gotten stroppy about, with their fraud and forgery of official MoC documents, and involvement in mundane and supernatural (See Exorcist in Tonghou) corruption
The very definition of an internal Empire matter
Is to address how the MoI relates to non-internal matters?
Do I have that right?
Because I don't know how to respond to that
I feel like I'm talking about hockey and you've asked how this all relates to racecars
"I think talk of checkpoints and restricting movements is premature. While we must establish identifying methods for allied tribes, I don't think the southernmost tribes routes pass this far north often?" Ling Qi said, glancing toward Jaromila.
"There is some variation, especially with your peoples weakening of the northern tribes, and the… gathering I have heard of in the east," Jaromila replied. "But… no."
"So I think proposing this sort of infrastructure is a little pre-mature. It may well be important in the medium term, but is too soon now, when we are just establishing our foundation."
"I believe it is better to begin as you intend to continue, but I see your point," Dzintara said without heat.
"I do believe establishing an investigating force to be important though," Ling Qi said. "And I would welcome your temples and your Crows in its establishment, to work alongside Xiangmen's rangers and scouts."
She had toyed with the idea of proposing to bring the Ministry in, knowing that giving them more on the immediate back of the judge decision would bring more favor… doing it now in the brief window where they were not feeling as if they were simply owed it might have been good….
But she did not want to give them power over both judiciary and investigation. That was simply too much in one area. If the Ministry had to be placated and cajoled with further influence she was rather spread it thinly.
"I have spoken with those men, and though I do not understand your institutions and rituals, I trust their impartiality," Ling Qi added.
She glanced past the old priestess, toward one of the men in their crowfeather cloaks. A face like a cracked granite cliff, marked with stubble and scars. She… couldn't quite tell if it was one she had talked too before. The memory of their faces was slippery.
Crows, old Crow's. No one ever gave them names, and she remembered what the first one she had spoken too had said. If the Way's of other Southern's shrouded them like cloaks and mantles, boots and armor and gear, then the Crow looked to her like a mask. They were hollow, but not empty. What had been scooped out was replaced with something else. Their human faces that were vessels. A gruff or friendly or mysterious face to make teaching easier.
Nameless. Without ego or ambition. An automaton animated by duty, a harsh edged, sharp lined character, what the southerners called a 'rune', burning in the dark behind an empty eye socket.
The old man turned to look at her, and she heard the harsh rasping caw and flutter of wings. The nature of the duty wasn't hidden, or even obscured. Walk the winter shadows, mark the roads and trails that they might not be forgotten under the driving snow. Preserve knowledge. Transmit knowledge. Maintain the boundaries and gates.
He nodded to her, and Ling Qi looked away. She was glad that she was refining her technique, it would be impolitic to get a nosebleed right now. Even the Ministry, with its own deathly oaths to the ascended Emperor, were not so dedicated as that… at least not of the agents she had met.
Though of course, like any tool, the hands that wielded them had a say. But a cultivator like that was not just a tool either. They could not be guided against their nature anymore than a mortal could force a waterwheel to turn against the river with their bare hands.
"The bearers of His wisdom are ever reliable," the old priestess said, frowning. "I sure one or two can spare their eyes for this, if it is to go forward."
"It is the least that is necessary, but if it is where we must begin, very well," Dzintara said.
"I thank you for your patience, though, if I might ask a question?" Ling Qi asked.
"Please," Jaromila said.
"Where do you draw your judges from? Ours are apprenticed in a way, rising as junior clerks under the wings of senior magistrate, under the Aegis of our Ministries, but I have not gotten the details for yours."
"There are judges of different types. For this, we would use judges of Sudica, I would think?" Jaromila said.
"The scepters law matrons would be the best to contact," Dzintara said. "This is no matter of small squabbles between families which can be handled by arbitrators, but more akin to the arguments which form between towns and cities. This is the role of the ascetics who devote themselves to the Scepter's law."
"Ah a particular class of cultivator then?" Ling Qi asked.
"Accurate enough," Dzintara said. "The Axe concedes to the Scepters authority in this."
"As does the Cauldron. But there is much that needs to be said on the selection process," the old woman said. Ling Qi glanced her way, and for the first time, realized that she felt like a mortal, she'd glossed over it so easily but…. There was nothing for her eyes to see. Just a severe woman who could have been anyone's strict grandmother.
It felt strange to her, observing this. She knew the Polar Nations did have powerful families and clans, Jaromila's story proved that, but…. More and more she was feeling like the voices and Emissaries dedicated to their gods were the real political unit at play here, beneath the 'provinces' at least.
It was an odd realization. Temples in the Empire simply didn't have that kind of authority. Where they were separate entities at all, they were advisory. But if you understood High realm cultivators and White SKy Gods as the same type of being, it did still align…
It even explained their reticence regarding the Duchess, and the suspicion of Ling Qi speaking for her.
"I won't intrude any further it seems you have your own internal matters to discuss," Ling Qi said, and the three women with her nodded their heads.
"Yes, Thank you, Emissary Ling Qi. I look forward to resuming the meeting," Jaromila said.
Ling Qi took her leave, wandering back toward the head of the table. She glanced toward the ducal observers. Zheng Fu sat there with his arms tightly crossed, his foot tapping, looking like he wanted to vibrate out of his seat as his eyes darted from one person to another. Xuan Shi had a book open in one hand and an inkbrush in the other, periodically glancing up. He caught her eye for a moment and smiled behind his collar.
Meizhen, of course was the picture of imperial aloofness, with Xiao Fen beside her. Sun Liling… She was staring right at one of the Crow's, her brow furrowed.
Ling Qi arrived back at Cai Renxiang's side as her liege finished speaking to another functionary of their side.
"Good tidings?" Ling Qi asked, with a small smile.
"The even number of judges concept is percolating well. I expect it to be proposed in the next part of the session. So has establishing the a full time residence for the judges, that they become familiar with the area and need not travel for cases."
Ling Qi nodded. The first divot dug on the road to a settlement. Judges would have staff and needs, and those staff would also have needs, which would require servicing, and wasn't it simply more efficient for things to be on site. In the end it wasn't a complicated straegy, it was simply using the fact that people were always more comfortable with smaller steps, even if they had an inkling that they were being led.
"Your own conversation?"
"I am getting a better idea of how our guests own internal matters work. Their temples really are much more… political than ours. To the extent that I suspect that they take the place of clans in some ways. Most of them relevant to our project here."
Cai Renxiang pursed her lips thoughtfully. "I see, I will adjust accordingly. I suppose it does not precisely change much. Both are simply groups of largely like minded cultivators pursuing communal goals."
Ling Qi looked her liege in the eye, feeling a bit of consternation. "Lady Renxiang, the dynamics are not…"
She narrowed her eyes at Cai Renxiang's blank expression. "You are messing with me."
"I observed that you might require it. No, I understand, a religious institution is likely to have a stricter central dogma than a clan, and different expectations of its members," Cai Reniang said. "I will trust you to maneuver this where needed. Though I hope our counterpart has it in hand."
"She does, though its clear there are disagreements," Ling Qi said. "For now support and push the investigative arm proposal and cajole our side into accepting their Crow's into a central role. That will build both our and Jaromila's credit I think."
"I see, that is reasonable. I think that should be simple to accomplish," Cai Renxiang said. "The recess is ending soon. Let us discuss how we will present our refined goals."
When the speeches began again, Ling Qi paid a closer attention to things, focusing on the delegates present. What she saw made her cautiously optimistic. There was still heat in the debates but the overall tension was remarkably low. Even Cao Chun seemed to be somewhat mollified.
The shift from the initial rotating three judge panel to a more permanent four judge panel passed by without too much bickering. Presented aloud by Wang Lian to break up a spat over the time of rotation. Cai Renxiang was swift to back it. There was some backchatter from the White Sky side prodding for six judges for greater diversity of opinion but that was tabled along with talks of more than one panel as possible plans for the future.
Things next turned to residency, and here a little more resistance was met. Quite a few would prefer to house the judges at nearby cities and only assemble them when needed, but there were enough voices on both sides who simply didn't wish for the delays and expenses of such a thing.
With that came discussion of staff, and here the groups pushing for an investigatory force were stronger. Cao Chun and Meng Deming wished to simply leave the matter in the hands of the affected clans, and there were some rumbles of that among the White Sky, but with the support of Dzintara and Jaromila they swiftly united.
On their side, Wang Lian was once again useful, offering to take up the support cost for it since it would be their land most affected. Luo Jie was supportive as well in a slightly oblique way, offering some service from Luo pathfinders and their bonded tracking dogs. Their presentation of it as something of a joint clan matter that happened to have ducal support quieted most of the remaining grumbling on their end.
This took up much of the remaining day, on th e slow back and forth, but by the time the sun was heading for the horizon, Ling Qi was feeling confident. They had hashed out the basic framework now, a simple foundation for resolving disputes. They were far from done. Tomorrow, Cai Renxiang would be bringing in a few experts on imperial law, and the White Sky were doing the same. The meeting hall would be filled with scholarly debate tomorrow, as each side presented and reviewed their relevant legal codes and identified points of contention. That was not her battlefield though, and for all that she would be here to smooth ruffled feathers, it left her some freedom to address other issues.
Which is why she caught Cao Chun's eye as the debates were winding down for the day, everyone presenting their closing words. She received a small nod in return, and a faint gesture toward the doors. Meet at the Imperial Embassy building then.
She murmured her plans in Renxiang's ear as the meeting was breaking up, and received the go ahead. However, she did find herself a little surprised, as she moved for the exit, after saying her pleasantries to everyone.
"Yo, Miss Diplomat. You've got the patience of a sage, don'tcha?" Zheng Fu said lightly.
"I have the patience of a reasonable adult. Today's talks went pretty quickly and smoothly," Ling Qi said dryly.
"You're supposed to accept compliments, you know," Zheng Fu said. He drifted ahead of her walking backwards without a hitch as they came out on the veranda surrounding the hall. She did recognize the screening of their talk surrounding them though so it wasn't like he was actually lax.
"Then I'll thank you, Sir Zheng. What do you need? You'll be able to speak with our guests yourself soon."
"Nah, looking forward to that, but it's not it. This is about your bug problem."
"My bug problem?" Ling Qi asked, stopping by the stairs that led down to the road. It wasn't difficult to guess what he meant.
"Yeah, things buzzing around causing problems, accidents, you know," the veiled man said, leaning on a pillar. "Figured you'd be heading to the exterminators, but I thought I'd offer a hand. Pretty good at smoking out bugs. You know how bad the hornet nests get in our orchards sometimes?"
Ling Qi frowned. "Awful I'm sure. Why?"
"Cause I don't like slimy shit. Especially when it dumps a bunch of helpless people down into the maw of a pissed off mountain," Zheng Fu shrugged. "And honestly, I'm going stir crazy."
Was this how people felt when she said sincere but absurd sounding things, Ling Qi wondered. His blunt declaration left her no doubts at his intentions. Under her sight he was a twisting column of smoke and wind, and the howls of a menagerie of beasts. It made him difficult to pin down and read, but more from mercurial nature than intent to hide.
"I don't know that the Ministry of Integrity gets along with the old dukes well," Ling Qi pointed out.
"That's true, but they can't dismiss us either, you know?" Zheng Fu said. "I'll buzz off while your chatting with the exterminators if you like that better, and just bring you leads when I can."
Ling Qi considered. This was her purview so Reniang would accept her judgment here. It might make buttering up the Ministry a little more fraught, but the more efforts were split up the less efficient they were going to be that was why she was going to Cao Chun with this in the first place.
On the other hand, there was value in keeping her hand partially hidden with the Ministry as well.
[ ] Bring Zheng Fu on and go to talk to the Ministry with him along.
[ ] Best to keep some separation and sources hidden, talk to the Ministry alone, but accept Zheng Fu's aid.
Emerald Seas Nobility: 4 (+2 Ducal Support, +2 Personal accomplishments, +1 Historical Proofs, -1 Incomplete Hall)
White Plumes: 2 (+1 Satisfactory security, +1 Heron General's Patience)
Im excited about the next update. Now that we've gotten past the easy offers for the MoI in favor of ease of agreement for the Judge Panel, we're not going to get into the meat of what the MoI actually might want from this setup.
In that sense, bringing along Zheng Fu can project a couple different impressions: One is the optics of aligning Ling Qi firmly in the camp of the Old Clans as she's shown herself to be prior. Alternatively, the Sincerity could come through here, and the inclusion of Zheng Fu could come through as indicative of Ling Qis earnestness
The issue is whether or not the MoI contingent would give Ling Qi that necessary benefit of the doubt
Matters the framing of the project. Are we asking to take lead and run herd on them or are we offering some convenient sledgehammers and crowbars for some finiky parts that need some muscle? If we come across that way we can seem Sincere and Cooperative
Bringing Zheng Fu along might actually help to defuse things a bit with the MoI. They can hardly pester us about politics and agendas with a ducal hearing and relaying everything they're pushing for. It would send a rather apt message of not wanting to engage in favor trading but purely wanting to focus on the issue at hand.
This does mean that if we do want to engage in a bit of… political intrigue, we'd probably be better off not having monkey boy tag along.
I think we can easily appeal to Imperial Unity here. One of the major projects of both Shenhua and the current Empress is to restore flagging Imperial Unity, that was at a particular low point before and during An's time. There's a Zheng in the upper echelons of the Ministries in the capital, bringing one in will hardly be the most disruptive of the Ducals to bring in tbh. The Zheng might even be the second most acceptable to bring into this, after the Jin.
I think a downside could be that we cannot be certain about Zheng Fu's discretion with regards to reporting MoI wrongdoing to the broader clans. With us we could favor-trade to keep it quiet if we find out. With us and Zheng Fu we can't make that guarantee, which might chill Cao Chun's willingness to help out.
I would prefer to read an update with Zheng Fu in it, but that might not be the optimal choice if this is MoI interference. Hmph. Don't know how much of a downside bringing him along would be, but there's definitely some missed opportunity cost either way
The various Temples and followers of Gods being the equivalent to clans makes a lot of sense and is a pretty interesting bit of world building. Also I'm so proud Renxiang trolled LQ we've been a great influence on her.
Hmmm... Honestly I'm feeling like doing the sneaky thing and not letting Cao Chun know who exactly is helping us out actively, beside our mentor. That might open us to more occasions to make more deals with him, and if for some reason someone on the MOI's side is compromised, the opposition won't know we have another sneaky cultivator who also happens to be a relative offensive heavyweight around.
Cao Chun's Way likely aids in noticing hidden things, especially things that are intended to be hidden, and his cultivation is notably above that of both Ling Qi and Zheng Fu. I can't see trying to hide Zheng assistance lasting very long or being very useful, and even attempting to is somewhat adversarial. Better to make a point of appearing direct and open with the Ministry except when doing otherwise has a clear and reliable compensating benefit.
If there was another proposed reason (indicating an interest in maintaining independence and individual authority, maintaining plausible deniability if they want to act against another Imperial responsible, believing it'd make it easier to deal with the Ministry) then I'd be more supportive, but the given reason doesn't seem like a good one.
Crows, old Crow's. No one ever gave them names, and she remembered what the first one she had spoken too had said. If the Way's of other Southern's shrouded them like cloaks and mantles, boots and armor and gear, then the Crow looked to her like a mask. They were hollow, but not empty. What had been scooped out was replaced with something else. Their human faces that were vessels. A gruff or friendly or mysterious face to make teaching easier.
Zheng Fu has shown he can be sneaky and follow orders during battles. And if one of the saboteurs is in the MoI, then maybe having some backup would be good. I also agree that Cao Chun, as a high realm, would probably see through us because this feels like it falls into his domain.
And frankly, keeping stuff secret hasn't ever gone well. Remember when that happened all the way in Forge? Didn't work out. With the thing with Liling? It only worked out because Renxiang trusts us and our mysterious ways, but did it work out? I don't think so. Ji Rong's the only thing holding Liling together rn, and if it's revealed, well, she's basically going AWOL. SOOOO, yeah, let's include Zheng Fu.
If not for any of this, then just because a coordinated effort would make it easier to suss out the saboteurs. It'll be horrible if we mess each others' plans up.
[X] Bring Zheng Fu on and go to talk to the Ministry with him along.
Ministry less likely to try push back as hard with Fu there and it will be easier to play along with Imperial unity to go about dealing with pest problem.
She had toyed with the idea of proposing to bring the Ministry in, knowing that giving them more on the immediate back of the judge decision would bring more favor… doing it now in the brief window where they were not feeling as if they were simply owed it might have been good….
But she did not want to give them power over both judiciary and investigation. That was simply too much in one area. If the Ministry had to be placated and cajoled with further influence she was rather spread it thinly.
Ah, shit. This could have been Really Bad, and while it would have needed the failure of multiple failsafes, having the posibility removed is still good to prevent that avenue entirely. Glad my vote on that failed then.
On the Zheng though, I'm really leaning on throwing him together with the MoI. Having an agent nobody controls sitting in on things just seems like such a good way to complicate potential future shenanigans from happening.
[ ] Bring Zheng Fu on and go to talk to the Ministry with him along.
[ ] Bring Zheng Fu on and go to talk to the Ministry with him along.
I'm going for this one.
As others have pointed out, it's quite unlikely we can keep Zheng Fu's involvement hidden for any significant period of time. And even in the case we could, I honestly don't see much benefit to it.
It's true that the MoI was partially conceived as an institution to oppose the ducal clans. That's why it was so important for Jiao to break into the 8th realm.
But that doesn't mean they treat the ducal clans as enemies. Not by default, at least. Ducals get quite ruffled when the MoI intrudes in their inner matters.
My point is that Cao Chun values Imperial orthodoxy above all else, and that includes the ducal clans. Even one so freestyle as the Zheng.
So openly bringing Zheng Fu along will help reinforce the idea that we want and can work with the imperial establishment instead of being completely wayward.
Zheng Fu sat there with his arms tightly crossed, his foot tapping, looking like he wanted to vibrate out of his seat as his eyes darted from one person to another.
Xuan Shi had a book open in one hand and an inkbrush in the other, periodically glancing up. He caught her eye for a moment and smiled behind his collar.
"Dear Diary,
This is The Best. I get to help out my cute friend, meet cool new people from far away, infodump and hyperanalyze about all their lore with my cute friend, and then when all the arguing happens, it's Way Over There.
(doodle of a chicken-powered rocket house)"
60% planning next date with Qingling after the summit
20% planning ways to kill Sun Liling horribly, just in case
10% planning ways to kill everyone else, just in case
8% satisfaction of friends doing well
2% I'm the cutest one here :>~
90% planning ways to kill everyone horribly if they even flinch in Bai Meizhen's direction
5% Meizhen is the cutest one here, as is proper.
4.8% I'm such a good Black Viper, y'all don't even KNOW how good I am right now, you are so LUCKY my lady is the best and wisest and coolest otherwise POOF! GONE in a smear of venom without even a hair out of place, except she wouldn't even HAVe To think about it because I'd have already killed you DEAD, and YES that includes you, Ling-fucking-Qi, I WILL surpass you as Meizhen's BFF so help me
.2% little a friendship, as a treat?
Keeping a "hand partially hidden" from MoI for not even a specific reason is the worst kind of risk - a pointless one. For a good spymaster, scheming is a resource, and we also need to learn when not to waste it.
While openly taking the Zheng along shows a stronger united front. Both as a deterrence (the more other provinces take active interest in this, the more costly it will be for MoI to screw us over, so the less likely they will do it), and less as just some whim of only Emerald Seas.
I sort of feel like... ask? I mean, I feel like "ask" should be an option here. We go to MoI, we pretty much tell them straight up that Zheng Fu approached us and how and why (keeping it relatively brief), we acknowledge that our meeting had not initially been planned with guests in mind, and we ask if the MoI would like to invite him in. I'm not sure exactly how to diplomance it, but basically to lay it out there and let the MoI decide which way to play it. It's a cheap and easy bit of deference to offer, and it leaves them in a position where they can hardly resent us for the choice we made either way.
Basically, "This dude has offered to assist. We plan to accept his assistance, because this is important, but if you want to invite him into the discussion, that's cool, and otherwise we'll work as the bridge between you and keep you out of each other's hair."
