Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[CrimsonOddball]

All excitement about richly deserved comeuppance aside
It is true that the Liu probably aren't quite getting dissolved over this specifically or anything

With that being said however, I would definitely say that their situation is a lot worse for them than just an inconvenience that will only nab their subordinates and leave them with slaps on the wrist
The Liu are going to survive this, but they are going to have to start throwing people under the bus to do it, and some of those people are going to be fairly important Vassals
A couple of them might even be some of the more expendable scapegoats among the Liu themselves

And more importantly, the MoL are not going to just nab some Servant Clans and subordinates and call it mission accomplished
For this to have Hong Zhaofu's attention in the first place the MoL must be very aware, or at least strongly suspects, that the rot runs deep
This is going to give the MoL an excuse to tighten their grasp, to continue taking a closer look and interfering with the Liu's activities going forward

The Liu could try to fight the investigations and restrictions coming their way of course, but that's playing with fire in it's own right
Because the most surefire way to try to resist is to argue about the rights of Provincial Nobility against the central power of the Throne that organizations like the MoL represent
And that's an argument that probably gets their Count, the Diao, involved
Which would be Linqin, which is bad enough on its own, but is something that bears a very real chance of getting Cai Shenhua involved
Which is before you even consider that it was the Cai Heir that brought attention to this situation in the first place
And they really, really, don't want Shenhua's attention, not even in passing

Gentle reminder that the initial blacklisting of Qingge was probably either not illegal or a pretty minor 'unduly interfering with mortal economic affairs' offense that would see the Liu scion who started our chapter in the saga of Tonghou's terribleness... pay a modest fine. In all likelihood. Though the matter isn't super likely to be taken on in the first place, since the premise of the audit is inconsistencies/corruption in the Ministry of the Treasury.

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Well...
It should be noted that "abuse of mortals" is a charge that actually gets treated a lot more seriously here than is typical for Xianxia settings, as in the MoI exists to address egregious instances of such
Now granted in this case the Liu scion maybe has the means and privilege to mostly get away with it, as a Viscount scion acting through many intermediaries and underlings, and blunted bit by taking more indirect forms such as blacklisting her from qualified work and defrauding her out of her money, instead of flat out enslavement or murder
But the crime itself is still not a minor thing nobody cares about
Cultivators exploiting mortals in such a manner absolutely falls under the purview of the MoL and MoI, and their agents who have built their entire Way around Emperor "Everyone is Equal in Death" An's concept of Justice do not believe in "Screw the Rules I Have Connections/Money"

Someone is getting cooked for all this, most immediately He Ping, but it's not stopping with him
He Ping brought the Liu's name into this, and then he brought the Vice Minister of the Treasury's name into this
Hong Zhoufu gave him some rope and he fucking hung himself and made a spare noose for his boss along the way
And Hong Zhoufu was always aiming from the start to dig up the Liu's dirty laundry and was merely looking for an excuse to begin with
Even if they don't get the Liu today they know that the buck ends with them, and their grasp is tightening

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

The precise mechanics of what the Liu scion did complicate things. He didn't do extortion, because he didn't ask for/gain anything. Qingge's exile from the He was done on the He's own initiative, for example, so far as we know. And he's unlikely to be got for rape because they never had sex and he "only" barred her from respectable work, rather than forcing her into any specific job she got since. The mortal protection laws are more about direct harms, not nobles abusing their authority to turn a mortal's life to shit around them out of pettiness.

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I mean, she was told to become his concubine or else, and then he arranged an 'or else' when she refused. That's extortion and probably attempted rape. And I said proving it would be hard because it's indirect, but it is indeed illegal. And I was actually mostly talking about him getting caught out for all the actual rapes...anybody who did what he did to Qingge and who already has a reputation for brutality with women is going to have committed some more direct sexual assaults. Those will be easier to prove.

That's why, in all likelihood, the offenses he could be pinned for are either considered internal Liu matters, in the case of mis-wielding clan authority in a way that wasn't directly some other crime, or a relatively minor offense for interfering in mortal affairs. Noble privilege is real and pervasive.

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Noble privilege doesn't exist when the Duchess comes calling. She is Revolution, the Tyrant Progress, and they are an entrenched social order she has the power to destroy. Their corrupt little domain is an already dead remnant of the Hui and just hasn't fallen over yet, lurching along on inertia because she's busy. They should pray Ling Qi sics Cai Renxiang on them because what she does to them may destroy their current power base and have the full weight of the law come down on those guilty of crimes, but at least they won't all have to face the gaze of Truth and be revealed for what they are in every way.

 

[AbeoLogos]

I mean, she was told to become his concubine or else, and then he arranged an 'or else' when she refused. That's extortion and probably attempted rape. And I said proving it would be hard because it's indirect, but it is indeed illegal. And I was actually mostly talking about him getting caught out for all the actual rapes...anybody who did what he did to Qingge and who already has a reputation for brutality with women is going to have committed some more direct sexual assaults. Those will be easier to prove.



Noble privilege doesn't exist when the Duchess comes calling. She is Revolution, the Tyrant Progress, and they are an entrenched social order she has the power to destroy. Their corrupt little domain is an already dead remnant of the Hui and just hasn't fallen over yet, lurching along on inertia because she's busy. They should pray Ling Qi sics Cai Renxiang on them because what she does to them may destroy their current power base and have the full weight of the law come down on those guilty of crimes, but at least they won't all have to face the gaze of Truth and be revealed for what they are in every way.

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Oh you meant the concubine thing? He's probably just straight out in the clear for that one. Although she was opposed, her family was not, and that's who gets to make these decisions in this culture. Up and down and sideways across all the hierarchies, basically. Noble and commoner; mortal and cultivator. Hence her running away from home. Spouses and concubines aren't contracts between individuals, they're contracts between houses, concerning individuals.

Her flight was taken as an insult, but we don't have any evidence any untoward pressure was put on anyone because of it. And it's not clear it would be a matter for the law if pressure was applied. The He disowned Qingge proactively on their own initiative, so far as we understand it. The censure the Liu young master laid on her head was officially because of the insult in how she acted, running away from home and all that.

As for Shenhua, well, I think people are putting a bit too much faith in her. For one thing, she's been to Tonghou before, in her official capacity as the Duchess, making her rounds/herself seen in the province. It was 20-25ish years ago, when Qingge was a kid. The Liu were definitely up to dumb shit back then too, and Shenhua must have seen it or deliberately pulled in her attention from seeing too much. Either way, the Liu didn't get vaporized.

I doubt she'll step in to do it now, either. Remember Shenhua deliberately turned up the shittiness dial on the Outer Sect; we know she's capable of not only tolerating but outright fostering disfunction and abuse when it fits her larger agenda. Reining herself in from burning down the countryside because it's full of corrupt nobles seems to be part of that. There's no particular reason to expect her to switch up her approach to Tonghou at the moment. Assuming the Diao don't start doing dumb things like shielding the Liu from the audit, there's no reason for Shenhua to act.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Oh you meant the concubine thing? He's probably just straight out in the clear for that one. Although she was opposed, her family was not, and that's who gets to make these decisions in this culture. Up and down and sideways across all the hierarchies, basically. Noble and commoner; mortal and cultivator. Hence her running away from home. Spouses and concubines aren't contracts between individuals, they're contracts between houses, concerning individuals.

Her flight was taken as an insult, but we don't have any evidence any untoward pressure was put on anyone because of it. And it's not clear it would be a matter for the law if pressure was applied. The He disowned Qingge proactively on their own initiative, so far as we understand it. The censure the Liu young master laid on her head was officially because of the insult in how she acted, running away from home and all that.

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The laws we've seen do not support this. At all. This is culturally true, sure, but not legally so as far as we know. But it also doesn't matter because, as I said, I don't expect him to actually get caught out on Qingge's case, I expect him to get caught out for some other woman he was a lot more direct with.

As for Shenhua, well, I think people are putting a bit too much faith in her. For one thing, she's been to Tonghou before, in her official capacity as the Duchess, making her rounds/herself seen in the province. It was 20-25ish years ago, when Qingge was a kid. The Liu were definitely up to dumb shit back then too, and Shenhua must have seen it or deliberately pulled in her attention from seeing too much. Either way, the Liu didn't get vaporized.

I doubt she'll step in to do it now, either. Remember Shenhua deliberately turned up the shittiness dial on the Outer Sect; we know she's capable of not only tolerating but outright fostering disfunction and abuse when it fits her larger agenda. Reining herself in from burning down the countryside because it's full of corrupt nobles seems to be part of that. There's no particular reason to expect her to switch up her approach to Tonghou at the moment. Assuming the Diao don't start doing dumb things like shielding the Liu from the audit, there's no reason for Shenhua to act.

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I'm not saying she's gonna do anything about them this second. I'm saying she's incapable of doing nothing about them forever. She removed order from the Outer Sect for a very brief period and to achieve a specific purpose, which was Renxiang re-establishing said order. She is allowing the Liu to keep existing because she has other priorities right now, but she has to destroy them in their current form eventually...they're on The List. If they were smart they'd already be cleaning up their act...they are clearly not smart, which means their days are numbered.

 

[CrimsonOddball]

As for Shenhua, well, I think people are putting a bit too much faith in her. For one thing, she's been to Tonghou before, in her official capacity as the Duchess, making her rounds/herself seen in the province. It was 20-25ish years ago, when Qingge was a kid. The Liu were definitely up to dumb shit back then too, and Shenhua must have seen it or deliberately pulled in her attention from seeing too much. Either way, the Liu didn't get vaporized.

I doubt she'll step in to do it now, either. Remember Shenhua deliberately turned up the shittiness dial on the Outer Sect; we know she's capable of not only tolerating but outright fostering disfunction and abuse when it fits her larger agenda. Reining herself in from burning down the countryside because it's full of corrupt nobles seems to be part of that. There's no particular reason to expect her to switch up her approach to Tonghou at the moment. Assuming the Diao don't start doing dumb things like shielding the Liu from the audit, there's no reason for Shenhua to act

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Assuming that this is also partially directed at me, the point was never that Shenhua was going to suddenly swoop in and vaporize them all
The Liu frankly exist far beneath Shenhua's typical notice

The point is that the Liu exist on the MoL's shitlist, and that's a problem that is decidedly not going to go away now that the MoL have found the first crack in the armor that allows them to start slowly working their way through

And a problem that the Liu lack a means to effectively fight because their only argument is to stand behind the rights of Provincial Nobility in the face of centralized power

And when the MoL actually have a solid case with evidence, which is being used to conduct an audit that will uncover yet more wrongdoing that will only further justify more investigation and interference that simply isn't enough
Not if they're alone anyway
They either need their Count to back them up on this, which isn't going to happen
Or they need a whole lot of their fellow Central Valley Nobles to group up with them and back them up, and if our relationship score with the Central Valley Nobles is any indication that isn't happening either
And even if it somehow did happen, a big squabble between the MoL and a group of Nobles (or the Diao) elevates this into the kind of situation that demands Shenhua's attention
At which point the Liu lose, badly
She doesn't need to literally walk in and vaporize them, her attention on the matter, even in passing, simply means bad things for them

The only reason that wouldn't be the case would be if Shenhua decides they'll make good practice dummies for CRX to demonstrate her legal muscles on
The chances of which are nonzero, I'll admit
But frankly being set up by Shenhua as target practice for her Heir doesn't bode any better for the Liu, it just means it'll take longer


The point is that the Liu are looking to have a bad time for the foreseeable future, and it's not something that's going to give them a few slaps on the wrist and then go away and let business return to the usual

And they can't really do anything to change that without most likely making things worse for themselves

They can only really buckle down, toss some people under the bus and wait for it all to blow over
Except indications are that the MoL are targetting the Liu specifically, and this just gave them the excuse they were looking for, so this isn't likely to blow over
Even if the MoL don't manage to get them today, they'll just continue to tighten the noose until they do

 

[Eastern Calculus]

I personally think the audit is going to turn up lots of interesting things beyond the fake loan. You don't have scions of minor servant clans running around extorting ex-prostitutes unless the corruption of the Liu runs deep.

Think about it from He Ping's perspective… there's no way he'd be doing what he's doing on goddamn Cai Shenhua's turf unless he sees his bosses getting away with the same things.

The MoL probably noticed early on that rules and institutions were not being respected in and around Tonghou, but there was little reason to prioritize that area when they're stretched so thin. Ling Qi gave the MoL a reason, and now they're gonna show the Liu why Shenhua's reforms weren't just for show.

 

[Solar Saiyan]

I had heard a lot of arguments about why we shouldnt strive to destroy the Liu clan, but can we at least destroy the He clan? Their most skilled cultivator was a first realm so they can be easily wiped out without repurcussions.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

I had heard a lot of arguments about why we shouldnt strive to destroy the Liu clan, but can we at least destroy the He clan? Their most skilled cultivator was a first realm so they can be easily wiped out without repurcussions.

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It's hard to entirely blame the He. I don't like them at all and wish they'd stood by Qingge, but evidence is strong that the Liu could and would have destroyed them entirely including doing awful things to various innocent people in the clan including the children if they didn't disown Qingge. Destroying them is thus not a particularly feel-good moment.

I'm not a fan of punishing people who did bad things because they had a gun to their head. We certainly owe them nothing and won't be helping them as a clan in any way ever, but destroying them wouldn't be well justified.

 

[Horium]

Fish stinks from the head. Liu are the disease, He merely the symptome.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Assuming that this is also partially directed at me, the point was never that Shenhua was going to suddenly swoop in and vaporize them all
The Liu frankly exist far beneath Shenhua's typical notice

The point is that the Liu exist on the MoL's shitlist, and that's a problem that is decidedly not going to go away now that the MoL have found the first crack in the armor that allows them to start slowly working their way through

And a problem that the Liu lack a means to effectively fight because their only argument is to stand behind the rights of Provincial Nobility in the face of centralized power

And when the MoL actually have a solid case with evidence, which is being used to conduct an audit that will uncover yet more wrongdoing that will only further justify more investigation and interference that simply isn't enough
Not if they're alone anyway
They either need their Count to back them up on this, which isn't going to happen
Or they need a whole lot of their fellow Central Valley Nobles to group up with them and back them up, and if our relationship score with the Central Valley Nobles is any indication that isn't happening either
And even if it somehow did happen, a big squabble between the MoL and a group of Nobles (or the Diao) elevates this into the kind of situation that demands Shenhua's attention
At which point the Liu lose, badly
She doesn't need to literally walk in and vaporize them, her attention on the matter, even in passing, simply means bad things for them

The only reason that wouldn't be the case would be if Shenhua decides they'll make good practice dummies for CRX to demonstrate her legal muscles on
The chances of which are nonzero, I'll admit
But frankly being set up by Shenhua as target practice for her Heir doesn't bode any better for the Liu, it just means it'll take longer


The point is that the Liu are looking to have a bad time for the foreseeable future, and it's not something that's going to give them a few slaps on the wrist and then go away and let business return to the usual

And they can't really do anything to change that without most likely making things worse for themselves

They can only really buckle down, toss some people under the bus and wait for it all to blow over
Except indications are that the MoL are targetting the Liu specifically, and this just gave them the excuse they were looking for, so this isn't likely to blow over
Even if the MoL don't manage to get them today, they'll just continue to tighten the noose until they do

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Ah, I did mean just the "Shenhua on high descends as a titan of bleaching light and Truth" stuff and meant to add a nod to your highlighting of it being a pretty deep inconvenience for the Hui to have an audit going on in their backyard, not a trivial one. I just forgot.

 

[yrsillar]

Ah, two hour warning on the vote.

 

[The Laurent]

People should maybe stop talking about this in the present tense? I mean, it could still be ongoing, but it was nearly two years ago when this sidestory happened. I honestly think it's more likely that whatever lumps the Liu or He were going to take, they've already taken.

 

[Blademaster]

I will just sit here and enjoy the mental image of the the Liu patriarch trying to complain to Tyrant Justice that her daughter needs to be punished for uncovering corruption in his city.

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why do I have a feeling this meeting ends with the Liu getting a new patriach

 

[Valmond]

Now now, let's not overreact, if there is anything that Cai "bureaucrat heads on spikes" Shenhua is known for, it is her infinite patience towards political realities of corruption and greasing the wheels.

 

[The Laurent]

Ling Qi has also not really stated a strong desire to spend all of her time getting revenge in this case. She kinda seems to want to put it at least a little bit behind her. Which is valid. Sometimes the best revenge is living well.

Ling Qinqqe is the beloved mother of Baron Ling Qi, Left-Hand to Cai Renxiang, a political actor on a Duchy-wide stage whose meteoric rise has led to her being central to a highly risky but potentially profitable venture in rewriting the history of the world and changing the future in a way that could pay vast dividends both in avoiding future conflict and in helping to win the conflict with the Cloud Barbarians. Ling Qinqqe is the semi-adoptive grandmother-esque figure to a turtle that another Ducal family worships and takes partnerships with, and Ling Qi has ties and affiliations with quite a few powerful Great Spirits, at least on occasion. Through Cai Renxiang the Lings have resources far beyond what a "typical Baron" would probably have, and Ling Qi trusts her mother implicitly to manage said household.

And then we have the Liu, a Viscountal Clan that's going nowhere fast in charge of a rundown, decaying, broken city that actually stinks of despair and hopelessness, whose Young Master threw a two-decade long hissy-fit because he couldn't get his concubine. Yeah they're of higher rank and theoretically power and privilege than Ling Qi, let alone Ling Qinqqe...

But, like.

Ling Qinqqe has sorta by sheer luck, coincidence, and a confluence of events kinda at least partially moved past it... even if she's never going to forget what was done to her and what she went through.

 

[CrimsonOddball]

People should maybe stop talking about this in the present tense? I mean, it could still be ongoing, but it was nearly two years ago when this sidestory happened. I honestly think it's more likely that whatever lumps the Liu or He were going to take, they've already taken.

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I mean
Both of my two big posts on the matter were specifically about why I don't believe that to be the case

So I don't see why I would

 

[Valmond]

Not obsessing over revenge as personal matter, sure, that's fine.
But, once again, we should give the Liu a solid kick in the groin any change we get just on principle, because people like that deserve it.
Now, if we learn that they have been sufficiently purged of anything with a stink of corruption and abuse, i will be willing to amend this, but until then, my position remains.

 

[veekie]

The MoL probably noticed early on that rules and institutions were not being respected in and around Tonghou, but there was little reason to prioritize that area when they're stretched so thin. Ling Qi gave the MoL a reason, and now they're gonna show the Liu why Shenhua's reforms weren't just for show.

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From the dialogue here it was long an area of concern, they just couldn't get any evidence sufficient for a warrant, or at least an excuse to dig deep and be reasonably sure to unearth something. Which makes sense if the lord of the land AND the local minister of law are both complicit.

That said the events of Exorcist of Tonghou is going to make for a LONG and quiet audit. Gotta wind the snake up to the head and all

 

[yrsillar]

Alright gonna be out for a bit so I'm locking a little early. Theres not been anymore votes anyway. Can I get the final tally?

 

[Aliya]

Adhoc vote count started by Aliya on Jul 24, 2023 at 10:53 AM, finished with 161 posts and 71 votes.

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  53 people have voted

  [X] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges. (No Favor change, +20% on next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Theocracy influence on Embassy Increased)

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  9 people have voted

  [X] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges… and you can proactively offer Ministry involvement to match the Crows. (+1 to Ministry of Integrity Favorability, +20% to next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Increased Theocracy and Ministry Influence on the Embassy.)

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  8 people have voted

  [X] Support both with MoI Involvement. (+1 To Polar Theocracy Favorability, +1 To Ministry of Integrity Favorability. Increased Influence of Theocracy and Ministry, lesser WS nomad Dynamic Shift.)

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  2 people have voted

  [X] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges. (No Favor change, +20% on next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Theocracy influence on the Embassy Increased)

  • promethus
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  1 people have voted

  [X] Support the idea of mixed manned checkpoints on designated routes through which White Sky aligned tribes will move when their routes demand passing close by. (+1 Polar Theocracy Favorability. -1 to White Plume Favorability. Shift in internal White Sky dynamics)

  • o11c

  1 people have voted

  [X] Support the idea of mixed manned checkpoints on designated routes through which White Sky aligned tribes will move when their routes demand passing close by. (+1 Polar Theocracy Favorability. -1 to White Plume Favorability. Shift in internal White Sky nomad dynamics)

  • Tim4

 

[LightLan]

…What had her daughter done?

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She penned a single letter.

Behold her great power: Friends in High Places

 

[Random Shinobi]

The laws we've seen do not support this. At all. This is culturally true, sure, but not legally so as far as we know. But it also doesn't matter because, as I said, I don't expect him to actually get caught out on Qingge's case, I expect him to get caught out for some other woman he was a lot more direct with.

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What makes you say that? When Ling Qi gained her noble rank and became the head of her clan, she was straight up told that she has a lot of authority over her family. She could have forcibly (and legally) brought Qingge and Biyu to the sect even if they had resisted. If Ling Qi can decide where her family members live and what they do, she most certainly can also decide their marriages.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

What makes you say that? When Ling Qi gained her noble rank and became the head of her clan, she was straight up told that she has a lot of authority over her family. She could have forcibly (and legally) brought Qingge and Biyu to the sect even if they had resisted. If Ling Qi can decide where her family members life and what they do, she most certainly can also decide their marriages.

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Can she? Please cite where that's stated because that's not the impression I got at all. My impression is that she can kick people out of the family if they disobey, not actually force them to do things. And even if she can, she's a Baroness while the He are very much not. Them having less authority seems pretty likely.

 

[ReImagined]

Can she? Please cite where that's stated because that's not the impression I got at all. My impression is that she can kick people out of the family if they disobey, not actually force them to do things. And even if she can, she's a Baroness while the He are very much not. Them having less authority seems pretty likely.

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The passage in question:

"Ah yes," he said, glancing at a sheet of paper to his right. "Your mother, Ling Qingge, and a… younger sister, Ling Biyu, no father recorded," there is a slight tinge of disapproval to the old man's voice on that last part, and for a moment, Ling Qi felt the urge to speak up and defend her mother. "Your status overrides traditional propriety. You are the head of the Southern Emerald Seas Ling Clan, and as such, have full legal authority as the head of the family over mortal members."

"What does that...mean exactly?" Ling Qi asked, leaning forward a bit.

The Sect Advisor studied her quietly for a moment, expression hard. "I will be frank, mortals have few rights of their own. As the head of their clan you may do with your family as you wish," Ling Qi blinked, disquiet filling her at the implication of that statement. Hou Cheng's expression softened as he continued. "If you would like I will arrange for the Sect to transport and house them here in the Outer Sect village."
"...I would have to write her first," Ling Qi replied absently, tucking away considerations of the advisors statement for later thought.

"Simply submit the application when you have made your choice," The older man replied kindly.

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The part where it says 'full legal authority' and 'mortals have few rights of their own. As the head of their clan you may do with your family as you wish' would seem to imply it.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

The passage in question:

The part where it says 'full legal authority' and 'mortals have few rights of their own. As the head of their clan you may do with your family as you wish' would seem to imply it.

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Fair enough. That doesn't quite synch up with what we've seen about the rules for mortals who aren't clan members, though, and may have been overly simplified for Ling Qi under the circumstances. More importantly, those are the rights of the head of a Baronial Clan. I would be a bit surprised if they didn't have a lot more authority than a much lower ranking cultivator would.