Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
He's demanding it before we have any proof of what happened or the other side's story. Maybe the artisan struck first. Maybe a lot of things. He doesn't care about the actual circumstances only that the foreigners be blamed and put in their place, and he's happy for the opportunity.
He's in the wrong here, not because a formal apology is an inappropriate punishment, but because he's decided who's guilty and in need of punishment based on his own prejudices before an investigation can even be done.
- Location
- Washington DC
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not really sure that the Ministry of Integrity is actively plotting to trash the summit, something which may well make up an unacceptable encroachment on provincial affairs, especially since their position in Xiang's administration is probably not quite so influential as in An's administration, and An's ascension at least to some degree ensures that it's filled with people who have to have some dedication to genuinely do their job.
I do think they're pissed off and are dragging their feet/are pushing to see as many events as possible resolve to their favored interpretation of how things should work, slash to ensure capital advantage; if they were just THAT totally hostile to the summit, rather than this sort of resigned cooperation. This does mean that when things like this happen they can feel free to be assholes if they feel like it lines up with their mandate.
I do think they're pissed off and are dragging their feet/are pushing to see as many events as possible resolve to their favored interpretation of how things should work, slash to ensure capital advantage; if they were just THAT totally hostile to the summit, rather than this sort of resigned cooperation. This does mean that when things like this happen they can feel free to be assholes if they feel like it lines up with their mandate.
That's fair (as is Valmond's way of putting something similar); let me reshape my argument a little bit. It's not that he's right in that Ling Qi should listen to him and just push along with instant judgement like he wants, Ling Qi is absolutely being smart, being responsible, and taking the correct course of action in taking the time to investigate what happened. It even is arguably negligence even when it comes to his role as Ministry of Integrity to just try as hard as he is to call the whole thing done, considering that he is trying very hard even to ignore possible external factors; if those show up, obviously it'll be a big deal. But I do suspect that something close to a formal apology is probably a pretty likely outcome, and in jumping the gun/negligently pushing to the likeliest outcome I do think it's more of a matter of problematic biases and attitudes than Jin Tae straight up being a hostile actor.
The Ministry contingent as a whole, given what Elder Jiao told Ling Qi about Cao Chun? No. An ambitious underling with delusions of grandeur on the other hand? Maybe. Jin Tae strikes me as that kind of muppet. First he's noticeably cheerful about the incident, and then he goes too far in the other direction:
If he's not plotting, he's being appallingly unprofessional. Anything that would help solve the incident would only be a good thing. If he is plotting, he's being appallingly obvious.
- Location
- Washington DC
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's an angle I hadn't thought about. At the least it really is shocking just how unprofessional he's being (like I mentioned, even from a purely MoI perspective it does seem negligent, leave alone a perspective of general decency and prudence or Ling Qi's perspective), and I do hope to figure out what exactly is going on there.
Cecylene
Eternal Idea Engine
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Pronouns
- He/They
It's been established that with Jiao's departure the MoI will never be what it should have been. He's someone who is watching a business deal of someone in another department start to falter and there is nothing he would like more than to follow precedent and protocol and anything we do is effort that could have been "avoided" by being more high-handed like he would have suggested.
This is unprofessional, but in the way that CC'ing someone's boss and attaching your prior emails with a comments of "per my previous communications as shown here" is unprofessional levels of twisting the knife.
He's the office politicking bastard, but one that unfortunately is merely filled with schadenfreude rather than outright malice.
Jin Tae's normal state is to have an affable sort of polite smile. He didn't lose the smile because of a fuller investigation being done with the assistance of an expert, his smile fell because the Jin and the Xuan despise each other. If a moment of distaste showing on somebody's face is unacceptably unprofessional, then there isn't a single professional person involved in the summit. Not even Meizhen, probably our most poised and stoic friend, is free from that sin. And more to the point, Ling Qi isn't, in this conversation, with her sighs and hard looks and grumpily spoken words.
I'm not sure what the actual standard is supposed to be here. Jin Tae has different priorities. He's perfectly fine with seeing the summit fail, which is understandable since we haven't given him any reason to feel otherwise. We actually deliberately decided not to try. So his bearing here is... expected? It's just not really his problem.
In fact, diplomatic success with a foreign power is more work for the MoI; it's no wonder they'd rather avoid outcomes that give them more to worry about. They don't want things to devolve into a hot war either, but that's also not really in their purview to care all too much about if it does happen. It's not their mandate.
Jin Tae's here to promote Imperial hegemony. That's the entire point of the MoI, though typically pointed inwards. Here, it means discouraging foreign influences and preserving imperial dignity, as he understands it.
We can absolutely withstand the horror of somebody disagreeing with us and butting heads about it. I honestly hope he headbutts harder. He hasn't actually, literally ever, done anything bad, or even really contrary to our interests. His grandest sin isbeing hot employing a bit of rhetoric at us, indirectly, one time in a meeting.
I'm not sure what the actual standard is supposed to be here. Jin Tae has different priorities. He's perfectly fine with seeing the summit fail, which is understandable since we haven't given him any reason to feel otherwise. We actually deliberately decided not to try. So his bearing here is... expected? It's just not really his problem.
In fact, diplomatic success with a foreign power is more work for the MoI; it's no wonder they'd rather avoid outcomes that give them more to worry about. They don't want things to devolve into a hot war either, but that's also not really in their purview to care all too much about if it does happen. It's not their mandate.
Jin Tae's here to promote Imperial hegemony. That's the entire point of the MoI, though typically pointed inwards. Here, it means discouraging foreign influences and preserving imperial dignity, as he understands it.
We can absolutely withstand the horror of somebody disagreeing with us and butting heads about it. I honestly hope he headbutts harder. He hasn't actually, literally ever, done anything bad, or even really contrary to our interests. His grandest sin is
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- Location
- Canada
The White Sky woman probably walked in on the tail end of this and just saw a woman aggressively laying a hand on a defenceless man didn't she?
Chivalrously stepping in to defend his honor
- Pronouns
- They/Them
As far as it goes, two second Realms (and a third Realm) getting into a scrap and dragging a few others into a bit of a scuffle is... pretty damn minor, really. Especially since it seems to be over an actual misunderstanding and the damage is a lot more like what any group of people swinging around a bit might do, rather than the kind of devastation that a 2nd or 3rd Realm could get up to if they were trying to fuck shit up.
Grosstoad
Birdbrain - Dick - Rules-Lawyer - Creeper
Or OCD spirit/art possessed behaviour?
What was being shouted, from both sides?
But in regards to Jin, I kinda want to ask, like, where is your supervisor?
MoI is actually about policing internal matters, wasn't it? So he does not have the clout to push on outsiders? He can push on the Empire artisans and on Ling Qi, but not too hard if he hasn't got a lny evidence.
What was being shouted, from both sides?
But in regards to Jin, I kinda want to ask, like, where is your supervisor?
MoI is actually about policing internal matters, wasn't it? So he does not have the clout to push on outsiders? He can push on the Empire artisans and on Ling Qi, but not too hard if he hasn't got a lny evidence.
- Location
- Europe
We'll have to see what actually happened, but this seems a pretty simple situation.
He should have stopped, she shouldn't have touched him, she shouldn't have been punched.
Sitting the three main participants together, explaining what happened, and then requesting a mutual apology should be sufficient. Ideally they're reasonable enough to apologize on their own.
He should have stopped, she shouldn't have touched him, she shouldn't have been punched.
Sitting the three main participants together, explaining what happened, and then requesting a mutual apology should be sufficient. Ideally they're reasonable enough to apologize on their own.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think we should all keep in mind that Jin Tae is Ling Qi's junior. He's only spent about 1 year and 5 months here, compared to the two Ling Qi and co went through. He's not had a lot of prep with politics like in the Inner Sect like we did. I imagine the 5 months there might not have been really useful, too, since he has to manage his time as an apprentice too.
Like, we know his relationship with his mentor is not the best right now. This may be his first big break where he gets to "do shit" and prove himself, so he wants a good outcome (from his POV, anyway). Like a newbie prosecutor in the law dramas I used to watch
. His excitement and unprofessionalism may not come from malice but rather from the opportunity of a big break.
Which is cute, actually. He's a snippy kid when he's happy. Like an annoying younger cousin when they think they're right. Can't wait to find out more.
That being said, this update had lots of fun stuff. Firstly, the build-up for Primacy of Beasts and Western Marches. I can't wait to peer into Liling's soul and be scarred by the horrors of the Jungle. That being said, I also like the Thief of Names build-up here.
I hope we see more of it here, and touch upon individual Truths here. I'm also really loving how our PLR insight comes into play here.
Also, more Xuan Shi! I can't wait. So, I'm guessing this will also connect to the talk with Wang Lian and her White Sky equivalents. And we finally get to see the Xuan/Jin rivalry at work!
.
Now, for the actual incident, I think it's between two things. Firstly, this may be a cultural misunderstanding and miscommunication of intentions. Or, it may be sabotage like usual. The geomancy and agreements have already been compromised once at the start of the turn. What's to say it's not happening again? We'll have to wait and see, but I'm loving this arc!
Like, we know his relationship with his mentor is not the best right now. This may be his first big break where he gets to "do shit" and prove himself, so he wants a good outcome (from his POV, anyway). Like a newbie prosecutor in the law dramas I used to watch
. His excitement and unprofessionalism may not come from malice but rather from the opportunity of a big break.Which is cute, actually. He's a snippy kid when he's happy. Like an annoying younger cousin when they think they're right. Can't wait to find out more.
That being said, this update had lots of fun stuff. Firstly, the build-up for Primacy of Beasts and Western Marches. I can't wait to peer into Liling's soul and be scarred by the horrors of the Jungle. That being said, I also like the Thief of Names build-up here.
I hope we see more of it here, and touch upon individual Truths here. I'm also really loving how our PLR insight comes into play here.
Also, more Xuan Shi! I can't wait. So, I'm guessing this will also connect to the talk with Wang Lian and her White Sky equivalents. And we finally get to see the Xuan/Jin rivalry at work!
This kinda explains a bit of what we know of the Jin (IMO), if this is a cultural mindset. Efficiency and eliminating uncertainty, at the cost of understanding context, explains why someone thought it'd be a good idea to torture dream muses for travel
. Now, for the actual incident, I think it's between two things. Firstly, this may be a cultural misunderstanding and miscommunication of intentions. Or, it may be sabotage like usual. The geomancy and agreements have already been compromised once at the start of the turn. What's to say it's not happening again? We'll have to wait and see, but I'm loving this arc!
dpara
slightly confused ascendant
Yeah, different cultural norms escalated this, randomly grabbing a white sky male will have a way different reaction than an empire citizen expects.
I wonder if there is an underlying commonality or if there are actual fundamental differences in geomantic principles.
(also lol at the poor contractors getting wierd coworkers, constraints and an absolute deadline xD)
I wonder if there is an underlying commonality or if there are actual fundamental differences in geomantic principles.
(also lol at the poor contractors getting wierd coworkers, constraints and an absolute deadline xD)
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I'm feeling bad. Didn't think about thr effect of our decisions on workers. Gotta be more conscious of that.
- Location
- FR
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The thing that makes me confident this wasn't an accident is that it happened when CRX, LQ, and Wang Lian were all away. The timing is way too convenient.
PowerLeca
Rapidly aging
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, I'd have to agree about Jin Tae acting a bit immature and sulky about what he sees as us needlessly complicating his "easy win"
The Jin seeking advantage is not quite in line with the goals of the summit, where his "easy win" would put the Imperials in place of superiority, through ignoring the potential long-term cost of respect.
LQ doesn't see that as a beneficial tradeoff, and she should say so. The Imperials may be convinced of their worthiness of respect, but that has not yet been conveyed to the foreigners. When the whole premise is "avoiding war" the traditional displays of overwhelming power become as much of a liability as anything else, and that includes displays of power to overlook and ignore facts of human experience.
And looks like we're finally getting that Jin-Xuan head-to-head that certain folks been clamoring for.
The Jin seeking advantage is not quite in line with the goals of the summit, where his "easy win" would put the Imperials in place of superiority, through ignoring the potential long-term cost of respect.
LQ doesn't see that as a beneficial tradeoff, and she should say so. The Imperials may be convinced of their worthiness of respect, but that has not yet been conveyed to the foreigners. When the whole premise is "avoiding war" the traditional displays of overwhelming power become as much of a liability as anything else, and that includes displays of power to overlook and ignore facts of human experience.
And looks like we're finally getting that Jin-Xuan head-to-head that certain folks been clamoring for.
Maybe but given how much they all have on their plates it becomes a statistical likelihood that SOMETHING was gonna happen when everyone is doing other things
Random thoughts:
- This is the kind of thing that "keep Jin in the loop" might've been useful for
- In before "By touching the man, the woman proposed marriage" or some such cultural misunderstanding nonsense
- What's the worst that could have happened if the tiles kept being laid despite verbal disagreement, then they were torn out again the next day after plans were remade after the claims were investigated?
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
I don't see any unprofessional actions. Words - surely. But actions?
Jin Tae has immediately contacted authorities (Ling Qi), has informed her of what happened seemingly without hiding anything, and was planning to go question the victim when Ling Qi showed up. As far as I understand - that's exactly his job.
Sure, he immediately jumped to the conclusion that the White Sky should issue a formal apology, but in the same vein Ling Qi immediately jumped to the conclusion that it must have been a geomantical influence. Different goals, different experiences, different assumptions.
Jin Tae has immediately contacted authorities (Ling Qi), has informed her of what happened seemingly without hiding anything, and was planning to go question the victim when Ling Qi showed up. As far as I understand - that's exactly his job.
Sure, he immediately jumped to the conclusion that the White Sky should issue a formal apology, but in the same vein Ling Qi immediately jumped to the conclusion that it must have been a geomantical influence. Different goals, different experiences, different assumptions.
If the array was compromised, she did the right thing physically stopping him. Geomancy is both delicate and potentially dangerous, specially when dealing with experimental arrays dedicated to defense.
Even if it wasn't a risk for anyone's safety, continuing to place component tiles may have lead to the entire section becoming unsavageable or even affecting arrays around it.
We still need to inquire about their version, but as of now it seems like the White Sky are entirely responsible. The geomancer guy for refusing to communicate with his partner and continuing despite explicit warnings (even with translation issues, the "there is a problem, stop" message must had been understood). The female guard for commiting an unwarranted aggression in the face of necessary action (cultural gender roles don't either justify or excuse it).
If the White Sky side confirms these events (even if they don't think they did anything wrong), then Jin Tae is right and we should demand a formal apology.
Edit: And I may add; Meng Dan already warned us that the White Sky workers were dissatisfied with being forced to work in the project, believing that the Imperials wouldn't bring them any good even if the Summit succeeded. It's not the first time we saw sings that the Polar Nations, both high ranking cultivators and common ones, are quite derisive and dismissive of the Imperial retinue.
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- Location
- Europe
The correct action, on both their parts and regardless of the actual state of the array, was to seek a mediator or adjudicator. It should never have come to him ignoring her or her laying hands on him.
Given they both disagreed on the nature of the array their ability to judge the situation as a team was already compromised.
To be fair, their supervisor should have caught this too, so there's blame to go around.
Given one of the proposed causes of this fight was "ruined geomancy" -
... I'm going to suggest that starting a larger fight that escalated to steel being drawn was certainly a possible outcome.
If you see a coworker about to touch an exposed high-voltage cable with a metal tool you don't seek a mediator to get them to stop. You yell at them to stop and yank their hand away. Heck, you tackle them if you have to.
Granted, I'm sure that the array they were working on wasn't nearly as dangerous as that. But if the WS geomancer's actions could have lead to the array coming apart and having to be redone from scratch, given the thight schedule it isn't unadequate to grab his wrist so he stops and listen to you. It certainly doesn't warrant a punch to the face.
Physically stopping someone isn't inherently wrong.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
As far as it goes, we only have a fourth of the story (the other two WS, and then someone with Geomancy experience to figure out the problem/divergence), but I am willing to believe that the WS people share the larger portion of the blame.