Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Snowblossom doesnt have any strategic assets yet, but if they want to disrupt our diplomatic efforts with the White Sky attacking the fief is a reasonable way to target Qi and/or Renxiang with fewer high realm allies around, especially if the attacker doesn't know about Shu Yue

But why would they care about the diplomatic efforts? It's a big deal to those here, but it's not anywhere close to the Antlered Legion training grounds or cities where they can cause mass casualties. Even if we massively oversuceed it'll be decades before the payoff matters materially to the larger province.

I don't want to get so focused on the protag's perspective that I lose the bigger picture everyone else is looking at.
 
Turn 18: Arc 3-2
"Zhengui," Ling Qi said, raising her voice just enough to override his bickering.

"Yes Big Sister?" Both of his heads replied, united in the moment.

"I assume it is not possible to heat the earth and to purify the underground water?" Ling Qi asked.

"I don't think so, um…"

"To attempt both projects would muddle the flow of qi, indeed the current state of the veins is like this, too confused to provide anymore than a minor effect," the older scholar said. "For the veins to provide a notable effect the fire qi must be aligned toward mountain or water more strongly."

"Yeah! Gui think's this is also because of the Blizzard Grump though, because he is being greedy."

"I, Zhen think it is the lightning leaking in from the south."

It was probably both. So for now there was no use trying to be greedy and doing both things. "We must choose based on what is most beneficial in the near term then. Our farms are just getting off the ground, but we have already much more capacity to deal with bad weather than illness. A permanent physician onsite is something we do not have yet," Ling Qi decided. "Tell me how this is supposed to work?"

Zhen hissed unhappily, but Gui stomped his feet happily, shaking the earth. "Oh! The fire will make the good earth stuff in the water better, and when people drink it, the fire will burn bad spirits that try to make people sick and the earth stuff will make their bodies stronger!"

She glanced over to the scholar. "It is not so potent as to sicken a mortal, we have tested this. Only at this site itself is the qi so concentrated."

"Sister, we should not interfere with the water too much, this is Snowblossoms place," Zhen complained.

"Does the spirit in the lake connect to the underground waters?" Ling Qi asked curiously. "Maybe in the cliff, where the falling waters have worn passage, but I do not think it is connected to the valley aquifers."

Zhen's head tilted back and forth, until at last he huffed. "...I do not know. I Zhen, assumed. If the spirits of fire and earth are mine, should the water not be theirs?"

Ling Qi pursed her lips. "...I'll have a conversation with the lake about that. It seems like something that should be discussed."
She had no idea how that would go, but she wasn't going to do it right now. If only because she was pretty sure Xia Lin would spontaneously develop multipresence in the third realm in order to come strangle her if she went and did such a 'spontaneous negotiation' with the Summit nearly underway.

Renxiang would probably help her too.

"....Fine, Zhen will trust Big Sister," the serpent hissed, lowering his ash scaled head.

Beneath, Gui remembered his manners well enough not to speak, but she could practically feel his smugness at winning the argument.

She reached out and rubbed Zhen's head between the eye ridges. "Very well that's decided. All of you, please compile a list of any materials you need to complete your work. I will present it to Lady Cai. I am going to walk with my Little Brother for now, have it ready when I return."

She was sounding a little imperious there wasn't she? Well the scholars seemed reassured by it, if anything going by the bows and murmurs. Some people found comfort in structure and clear orders she supposed. Letting her hand fall of Zhen's head she turned from the now huddling scholars. Zhengui trundled after her, his heavy footfalls beating a cheerful cadence on the rock of the cliff.

They ascended the hill further and Ling Qi admired the shimmering bubbling pools that lined the slop below, and watched the geyser erupt again, crackling with power. "You've done a good job, Zhengui. Do you like this place?"

"Mm, Gui thinks this is a good place! There are many sleepy things here, that do not remember humans, or how to speak to little things," Gui chirped.

"Hmph, there are, many big things, but I Zhen, will grow bigger still. This is a good place, Zhen can breathe here."

She let out a breath. "I'm glad. Well this spot in particular will probably be Renxiangs, but I think I like the land."

"Gui and Zhen will be king of the land so what spots Big Sister and her Boss put human things is up to them," Gui chirped.

"I Zhen, know Big Sister will not break anything," Zhen said.

"I admit, I am a little worried for the summit. It's only going to be Lao Keung here taking care of things in our absence," Ling Qi said, frowning. The Argent Peak Sect's army would be nearby so they should still be protected from serious incursion but…

Her little brother's heads looked at one another. "Big Sister. Gui thinks that we should stay here."

She blinked in shock.

"I, Zhen do not have any important things to say to people from far away, and there are… many big people there already," Zhen said, lowering his head.

"Gui thinks that he can protect Big Sister better here. Grandmother and little Sister are still under the eyes of the big dragon king. Sisters people here only have Mr. Hugs and Zhengui."

"Mr. Hugs?" Ling Qi asked.

"Mhm, the red snake man. His arms are very strong, Gui bets he could break lots of things in them," her little brother said guilelessly.

She looked back into his innocent eyes. So why did it feel like he was leaving something out? "Are you sure? I don't want to leave you just because you don't think you'll be useful."

"I Zhen am sure. There are many things to do here, and very few things there," Zhen said.

Yet she could tell he was reluctant. He still didn't like being away from her. But she thought that wasn't it entirely. He did like it here. "You're still coming with when I visit Mother."

"Yes! Gui wants to see Grandmother and little sister and the others," Gui agreed.

"And then Zhen will keep this place safe while Sister does all of the big talking," his other half agreed.

"Well, I'll trust you with that," Ling Qi said. "Hm, and when I'm done we'll need to find a place to build a garden here, huh?"

"Yes! Gui has ideas already, but there are still places to see!"

Ling Qi nodded. "Oh yes, Xuan Shi also gave me something for you. He said they were formation diagrams for your project…?"

"Oh! It is done, it's done!" Zhengui exclaimed, his voices in perfect synch. "I'll need to get Mister scholar to unroll and hold them for me!"

"That's the one who has been writing your letters?" Ling Qi asked, amused.

"That's right. Mister Scholar is very nervous and fidgety, but he is nice. Gui is glad he made another friend!"
"Foolish Gui is too generous… but it is good to have someone who can do hand things," Zhen grumbled. "Now, Big Sister, please let us see!"

Ling Qi chuckled, and drew the scroll case out of storage. She supposed this wasn;t a bad feeling.

***​
"Was your time here productive?" Cai Renxiang asked.

Ling Qi considered settling into her seat by the table in the little cabin 'office'. "I think so. I'm confident Zhengui are those fellows have the Earth Vein's handled well. Just remind the builders to consult them when digging new wells."

Cai Renxiang's brush swept across the page in front of her rapidly tracing perfect court characters. "Noted. Protection from illness is indeed a good boon to begin a settlement on."

"Indeed, such a foe may not be fought by normal means, yet is just as deadly as any beast," Gan Guangli said. He sat a short way down from her the little camp chair groaning under his armored bulk. "On my end I must say the farms are coming along well. The new settlers are adjusting things to their liking."

"That is good, the largest draws of new settlements are always the offers of land, there are ever more children than inheritance among mortals," Cai Renxiang said. "Things are coming along well."

"They are," Ling Qi said. "So, what next, people are coming in and I've received notice that the Luo are ready to transport beasts if we want them."

"I am not so certain we have enough people for that yet," gan Guangli said. "And it would spread us out further.

"I believe we need to decide where the settlements manor will be even if we do not yet begin the project. It is impossible to plan long term without knowing this," Cai Renxiang said.

Gan Guangli drummed his fingers on the tabletop. "Against the cliff near where the waters fall? Even Cloud Nomads may not easily shoot through so much rock."

"I like the idea though the mist might make things uncomfortable for mortal citizens," Ling Qi said. "...Well I could probably do something about that. Perhaps out where the river leaves the lake, the flowing water would make things better as the city grows, wouldn't it?"

"It would leave easier room for expansion later at the cost of defense," Cai Renxiang allowed. "Of course this place equidistant near to the prospective docks has value as well. The settlement is likely to grow from several places along the lakeside, a central location may improve administration."

"True! Still, speculation for now, we must decide what projects to focus on first," Gan Guangli said.

AN: Below you will find the link to your fief information, from there please Select which two development projects to begin over the next turn.

Vote format should be

[ ] Funny Plan name
-[ ] Project 1
-[ ] Project 2

If the Admin Center is chosen a location vote will be added as part of the next update.


Fief Informational
 
Looks pretty obvious to me.

[ ] Plan: TOWN HALL TIME
-[ ] Administration Center
-[ ] Subsistence Quarry

This gets us internal Material and Agricultural output, and starts the gigantic grind that is the Administration Center. We should very much be able to get all the other Tier 1 structures done by the time we're ready to start upgrading to Hamlet, or have time to hit the Population Drive button a few times.
 
Note that this post is being updated. I've deleted a few obsolete things. I'll probably transition the future-related stuff to a new post sometime.

[ ] Plan Don't Run with Scissors
-[ ] Subsistence Granary
-[ ] Subsistence Pastures

This was my personal favored plan, since it actually uses all our P and gives us safety, and does not delay Hamlet. The main competitor plans would be doing Fishing Docks instead of one of these (Candesce and Mathematicae made such plans).

But the related plan with the most votes is (which ended up winning):

[ ] Plan: Funny name

[ ] Plan Sheep on a Boat
-[ ] Fishing Docks
-[ ] Subsistence Pastures
This gives us more A and uses P appropriately, but lacks the safety net of Granary. A mildly risky, but not bad, plan. This unlocks Snowblossom Meditations as soon as possible, whereas I would do it next turn.

[] Plan: Funny name
-[] Subsistence Granary
-[] Fishing Docks
This wastes P and likely gives us less A than my plan. Safer than Candesce's plan if you think "Snowblossom Meditations Project" should be unlocked immediately.

On further analysis, this is the plan that gives us the most flexibility on whether to do a 6-month or 7-month push for hamlet. I guess wasting P isn't that important.

[] Plan: A Funny Name
-[] Subsistence Granary
-[] Subsistence Quarry
This uses P appropriately, and gives us M at the cost of consuming more A (though since we're hiring manpower for now that really means W), and at the cost of putting off Hamlet for another month.

There's nothing strictly wrong with this, it's just not what I would prioritize, since we have a good buffer of M compared to our currently predicted usage and early Hamlet offers notable benefits. We do want two Quarry upgrades early in Hamlet at latest though, even though that means we won't actually be able to staff everything until we do several additional Population Drives.

If put off quarry for now, we can vote again next month on whether we want that delay. Though if you want quarry next month, it may be advised to approval vote for the plan without Pastures (since I don't imagine Quarry votes winning directly this turn).

[] Plan: We Built This City On Rocks And Docks
-[] Subsistence Quarry
-[] Fishing Docks
Most of the previous analysis still applies (with a touch of the analysis from other plans). One minor note is that neither of these upgrades increases our P just yet, so we don't have to pay A for them, but that's pretty negligible.

[] Plan: I didn't want your vote anyway Neshuakadal
-[] I don't actually have a plan
-[] I'm about to go to bed, sue me
Not actually a plan.

[ ] Plan: TOWN HALL TIME
-[ ] Administration Center
-[ ] Subsistence Quarry
[] Plan: Where We Dump the Leftovers & Paperwork
-[] Administration Center
-[] Subsistence Granary
[ ] Plan: Cattle Wrangling
-[ ] Administration Center
-[ ] Subsistence Pastures
[] A solid foundation
-[] Subsistence Quarry
-[] Administration Center

The problem with Admin Center plans is that it does not give us any immediate benefit, whereas most other upgrades do. A similar-but-rare waste is if we unlock both Pastures and Quarry, since we can't actually man them both ... but Pastures gives us a pop boost which we desperately need, so it's my preference.

Assuming that there's no action that increase P by more than one, the remaining requirements for Hamlet are:
  • 5 turns on Admin Center
  • 6 turns on various things that give population boosts
    • 1 from Granary
    • 1 from Pastures
    • Quarry does not provide one
    • 1 (probably) from Fishing Boats, which is locked behind Fishing Docks
    • 3 from Population Drives, which should be done last, though more hidden upgrades may exist so we might take them instead.
So that's 12 actions needed, or 6 months. Thus admin center can start next turn if we do nothing other than this. In fact, assuming we can't take Pop Drive twice in a month, doing the manor now will almost certainly force hamlet to take 7 months, since good luck getting people to repeatedly vote against boats and/or pastures.

If we also want quarry (and probably its upgrade, though some other upgrades would also be useful), then admin center should be put off an additional month. There's no point in putting it off further than that though. Note that choosing quarry means not being able to staff everything, though.

Assuming no quarry (which would waste a month), the schedule for the next (and past) few turns months (since turns might start being multiple months) is:
  • (initial: 300A, 300M from the auction but 50M was spent forcibly on Turn 14 before all the fief data got started; this is actually out of order)
  • Turn 14 (Y45M1) [300A, 300M, 0P, 0W]: (implicit, forced) Expand Snowblossom Outpost (1/2) [cost 50M]. Choose from the 3 fief options. "Survey the Wall" was a Locked Retainer Action. Exploration Thresholds 60, 100, 120 reached (138 total): discover Veins of the Earth, Thunderclap Mountain / Thunderhoof Reserve (development blocked until Cyan), Saline Grotto, Cathedral of Winds + Abyssal Ossuary (fight + blocking development). Name the river(/lake). Visit Xiangmen (arc 4), do the auction [this is where the +300A, +300M actually came from] and get Gold Autumn contacts (part 11). No income.
  • Turn 15 (Y45M2) [300A, 250M, 0P, 1W]: (revealed) Expand Snowblossom Outpost (2/2). Suyin offers to help. Wang Roads (N: sect, SE: summit) free cancelling out the manpower drain (TODO when did we arrange for those?). "Survey the Wall" was again a Locked Retainer Action. Exploration Threshold 160, 200 (? total): Falling Waters Palace + Starlight Labyrinth (fight + blocking development)
  • Turn 16 (Y45M3) [300A, 250M, 0P, 1W]: Veins of the Earth development (1/2) [cost 25A, 10M], Subsistence Fishery [cost 25A; grant +1P]. Income 1A, 1M. "Survey the Wall" was chosen as a Professional Action. Exploration Threshold 300 (no roll) Become a Resource Outpost, unlocking projects in the first place, roads now give +2W; base income +1A, +1M; +25Def. Discover high-quality Spirit Stone Vein, talk to Lake spirit.
  • Turn 17 (Y45M4) [251A, 241M, 1P, 1.1W]: Veins of the Earth development (2/2), Subsistence Fields [cost 25A; grant +1P]. Income 3+1-1A, 1M.
  • Turn 18 (Y45M5) [229A, 242M, 2P, 1.2W]: Subsistence Granary [cost 25A, 15M; grant +1P], Fishing Docks [cost 20A, 10M] Income 6+1-2A, 1M.
  • Turn 19 (Y45M6). Did not visit the fief due to the summit happening.
  • Turn 20 (Y45M7)
  • Month 19: Administration Center (1/5) [cost 75A, 50M], Subsistence Pastures [cost 15A, 25M]
  • Month 20: Administration Center (2/5), Fishing Boats [cost ?A, ?M; grant +1P] (Hmm, I am assuming this is a one-turn upgrade ...)
  • Month 21: Administration Center (3/5), Population Drive [cost 10A, 10M; grant +1P] (or potentially some still-hidden upgrade that gives us Permanent Manpower - both granary and pastures likely have such upgrades, but we can only take them if they don't have additional prerequisites)
  • Month 22: Administration Center (4/5), Population Drive [cost 10+?A, 10+?M; grant +1P]
  • Month 23: Administration Center (5/5), Population Drive [cost 10+?A, 10+?M; grant +1P]
  • Month 24: edit: wait, Hamlet does require a project? I guess we might do Subsistence Quarry [cost 15A, 10M] at the same time then?
  • Month 25? we are a Hamlet and get a bunch more options ... I'm guessing we'll do Tiny Quarry [cost ?A, ?M] and Simple Palisade [cost ?W] but we'll see when we get there.
I later made a list of Exotic Resources to exploit

Note also that the Hamlet upgrade has a fixed W cost that will balance out the W bonus from our Roads. Hm, maybe we can't do Palisade?

When exactly are we going to call on the geomancer?
 
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It looks like we'll need 8 permanent manpower to upgrade to hamlet? If so, the admin center isn't the bottleneck but Renxiang seems to want it and she's the boss
 
"Gui thinks that he can protect Big Sister better here. Grandmother and little Sister are still under the eyes of the big dragon king. Sisters people here only have Mr. Hugs and Zhengui."

"Mr. Hugs?" Ling Qi asked.

"Mhm, the red snake man. His arms are very strong, Gui bets he could break lots of things in them," her little brother said guilelessly.

Mr. Hugs is in fact a very descriptive name for anyone affiliated with constrictor snakes. Given that Zhengui was being cagey he may also have hugged Zhengui at some point, which would be hilarious and sweet. I will now be using this name for him at every opportunity.
 
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[] Plan: Where We Dump the Leftovers & Paperwork
-[] Administration Center
-[] Subsistence Granary

Like Alectai I agree we should get started on our Admin Center, but I think having the Granary set up now would be a good idea, given the potential risk of a negative event and Famine until the Summit is done.
 
@yrsillar I don't see all my questions answered?

(I plan to update this post with all plans that people make, but I can't make my own without those questions)

Edit: actually, just knowing the 8P requirement at least eliminates all plans that include the Admin Center, since it is strictly better to take projects of immediate use. Given that, I favor Granary immediately, and Pastures to actually use our available manpower.

[ ] Plan Don't Run with Scissors
-[ ] Subsistence Granary
-[ ] Subsistence Pastures
Apologies which ones did I miss?
 
It is not mentioned at Subsistence level:



and the next grade only increases the improvement's slots (as in "Manpower Slots 0/3" becomes "0/4"):

@yrsillar Since these will affect the plans for upcoming votes in this Arc, I think we need some WOG answers here soon, particularly:
  1. Is Admin Center the only requirement for Hamlet?
  2. Is the Hamlet upgrade immediate when we finish the requirements, or will it take further development actions?
  3. Does hired manpower disappear when we reach Hamlet? (only relevant if "reach max permanent manpower" isn't an additional requirement)
  4. If we need/want to stop using hired manpower do we really need 5 Population Drives? (considering revealed development actions only, since only a fraction of them are stated to provide a Permanent Manpower bonus)
(btw in the "Development Projects" tab the first SPOILER tag (for Granary) is missing/broken, so remember to fix that when updating VotE. I would also change the threadmark.)
Here we go

1&2. No there is the manpower req and a project once you meet the reqs
3. The current hired manpower will remain until you hit hamlet, and then you will have the opportunnity to choose to hire it for varying amounts of wealth.
4. You will unlock more projects that give permanent manpower, but well pop drive is there for a reason
 
[X] Plan: TOWN HALL TIME
-[X] Administration Center
-[X] Subsistence Quarry

[X] Plan: Where We Dump the Leftovers & Paperwork
-[X] Administration Center
-[X] Subsistence Granary
 
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Also the admin center needs 5 months. So whatever projects we need to do beside it can be done with the second action slot during those 5 turns.
 
As a reminder to people, the Administration Center is required to unlock Hamlet, so it's best we get started on it.
It takes 5 turns and if we select actions that increase manpower all 5 times we'll still be 1 short. Well assuming that there aren't any actions that boost multiple manpower. There won't be any delay to hamlet if we wait another turn before starting the Admin center. Delaying the admin center lets us knock off another project before the action gets locked up for Admin center.
 
Apologies which ones did I miss?

@yrsillar Since these will affect the plans for upcoming votes in this Arc, I think we need some WOG answers here soon, particularly:
  1. Is Admin Center the only requirement for Hamlet?
  2. Is the Hamlet upgrade immediate when we finish the requirements, or will it take further development actions?
  3. Does hired manpower disappear when we reach Hamlet? (only relevant if "reach max permanent manpower" isn't an additional requirement)
  4. If we need/want to stop using hired manpower do we really need 5 Population Drives? (considering revealed development actions only, since only a fraction of them are stated to provide a Permanent Manpower bonus)
(btw in the "Development Projects" tab the first SPOILER tag (for Granary) is missing/broken, so remember to fix that when updating VotE. I would also change the threadmark.)
You've answered 1 by example, but not exhaustively, though we can assume that's probably all. For 2, I just remembered that we didn't seem to do anything special for the Military->Resource upgrade so I'm now assuming that's the same. 3 is completely unanswered. 4 has reduced to "3 mandatory Population Drives" with current knowledge, which ... well, it's reasonable for now; I suppose you'll rebalance once we're actually a big city (some automatic growth on a scale of years should be expected, especially if there is high W ... or maybe the PopDrive scaling will be low enough that we can afford it manually?). But it does mean that doing without hired manpower means we won't be able to man all our buildings even without Quarry, and the P cap will be out of reach.

Also, you didn't remove/update VotE from the development list.
 
[] Plan: A Funny Name
-[] Subsistence Granary
-[] Subsistence Quarry

If there is no way to get the manpower requirement by the time Center is finished, I guess there isn't really any problem with delaying it another turn. In particular if it's to get immediately useful things like protecting our harvest and starting to produce materials.
I guess we could do all the free manpower projects and then smash the Population Drive button, but that is way too wasteful.

Though there isn't much point in getting all subsistence facilities or increasing their slots if we are gonna be capped at 10 manpower.
Having them at 2/3 for a bit is fine though. Quarry+Field+Fishing+Pasture+Granary is 4*(2/3)+1=9 Manpower. With an extra one for when we do Center. The problem comes in we increase the manpower slots with tiny tier. Those are gonna remain empty.

Right now, the projects that give free permanent manpower are Granary, Boats and Pastures. Those would bring us to 5. That means, that unless more free manpower projects show up, we'll need to do Population Drive 3 times to unlock Hamlet.
Which... is a lot, really.

And seeing how Boats requires Docks, it's going to take at least seven projects besides Center to unlock Hamlet.
Man, it really seems as if we should only start Center when we see we are hitting 8 permanent manpower in exactly 5 months. So it's better to do the other projects two at a time until reaching that point, so we can get their benefits.
 
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