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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Consolidating from my earlier approval vote to just Stones.

While I'm OK, with Vent, I prefer Stones.

[X] She flew to the Silent Stones, though she disliked the implications, it was the only moon site she knew
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Feb 22, 2019 at 11:59 PM, finished with 365 posts and 159 votes.
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Thor's Twin said:
You seem to have two threads of intertwining arguments which is making it a bit difficult to structure my response. But here I go.

It took me a while, but it seems like you are characterizing Sixiang's statement as a statement regarding the amount of qi in the vent, and not it's nature. That seems to be the thrust of your third paragraph. That Sixiang's quote isn't about the nature of the argent vent, but about the amount of qi at the argent vent. That might be true as Ling Qi herself comments on the potency of the qi in the vent shortly afterward. However, I don't think it was solely about the potency of the qi. Ling Qi and Sixiang didn't comment about how pleasant Zeqing's home was, and they certainly didn't comment about how pleasant the Silent Stones were. There were other locations, however, that was explicitly mentioned that the qi was, in a sense, pleasant. The Mystic Vale was explicitly mentioned to have qi that was "rich and wholesome." Which begs the question, what is different about the Mystic Vale and the Argent Vent when compared to other sites of similar potency?

Your argument revolves around the idea that it can be assumed that places of potent power will be pleasing to be around unless they aren't. You say that this idea isn't part of your argument, yet it is the central part, for if we don't assume that, then we have to ask why other locations of power haven't been mentioned to be pleasing to be around. Because if that is not an assumption we hold, then Sixiang's statement could be about the amount of qi or about the nature of the qi. And if the nature of the Argent Qi is distinctly more pleasing to be around than either of the other sites, then that is an argument in favor of the Argent Vent that should be taken into consideration and not dismissed. That's the crux of my opposition to granting Sixiang's comment on the Argent Vent any significant authority.

The second part of your argument is one that has been categorized as "moral judgment." Which I don't understand. I agree that Sixiang didn't make a moral judgment of the Argent Vent, but she also didn't make moral judgments of the other sites. This is not on the spectrum of "good vs. evil." Morality has nothing to do with this discussion. You can say that the unpleasantness for the Silent Stones and Zeqing's home are different in kind than the pleasantness Sixiang experienced at the Argent Vent. That would be true. But that does not make it a bad point for comparison. They are good points of comparison because we know that the emotional state of cultivators can affect their efforts at cultivation. Heck, it's the reason why Ling Qi is having troubles with base cultivation right now in the first place. A place that brings back unpleasant feelings may be harder to cultivate in, which could mean that Sixiang would have a harder time using the background qi. Conversely, a place that promotes a pleasant reaction could result in a better ability to cultivate. So Sixiang's different emotional reaction to the sites is a relevant point for comparison, even if they are different in kind, simply because the mental state does matter for cultivation.
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I'll respond in sort of reverse, since my brain's flowing that way right now. Remember that Ling Qi has already actively cultivated at the Silent Stones even while under the effects of her internal cultivation-penalizing conflict, and no mention was made of the site's specific connotations overtly burdening her efforts. If we approximate Ling Qi and Sixiang's reactions to things, which I believe you did earlier, then there's nothing to worry about. But this is annoying to me, because I don't wnat to actually be arguing over the merits of the different choices.

Related to that, I said I wasn't using my tautology to argue in favor of or against a particular choice. Because I wasn't. I wasn't and don't want to be engaging with the merits of the different sites; I'm arguing against a particular argument in favor of the Argent Vent. That's not the same thing as arguing against the Argent Vent, and if that confuses you I'd appreciate it if you just dropped the matter.

Most importantly, it's fucking absurd to draw strong conclusions from @yrsillar not specifying something about something. Sixiang, and every other character including Ling Qi, doesn't comment on all sorts of things all the time. There's only so much time that can go into writing the quest. It's unfair to the specific subject, @yrsillar, and other players to obsess over the absence of like details as though it's strongly suggestive, when comparing in-story subjects. There's fluctuations in focus, author energy, style, and context when any particular person, place, or thing is described in the narrative. We should appreciate that and keep a broad view of things, not use apparent discrepancies as a goddamn bludgeon.
 
AbeoLogos said:
That's silly. Sixiang wasn't making a moral judgement on the Argent Vent, and we literally do not have Sixiang's thoughts on the Silent Stones. My point was that the comment on the Argent Vent was highly generic and that there is actually nothing to contrast it against, so it's not useful. It tells us nothing that wasn't already obvious.

Discussing elemental suitability is another matter entirely, first because it's speculatory in impact, and second because we actually are aware of the different elemental makeups and can contrast them against each other and Sixiang's elemental nature. I suspect that argument in this vein is likely to veer into the impractically unsubstantiated, but there's a good body of information to draw from and formulate theories on.

What makes people's use of the quote on the Argent Vent annoying is that the context of its use isn't to establish a fact about the vent, because it could already be assumed that a potent qi locus is pleasant enough, but to establish via implication facts about other options which we do not actually have proof of. Implying that since Sixiang voiced a like for the one site, but hasn't said anything similar about any other, so she must feel more positively about the Vent than other sites(with the further implication that that matters in this context) is faulty reasoning.
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The fact that there is nothing to contrast it against is not proof sufficient to you ?

I highly doubt that any site would end up killing our muse, but still it seems incredibly wishfull thinking to ignore what was explicitely in the text, for reasons that are not explicitely written out.

This is after all a story. Things like chekov guns exist.

You are making an argument that we should ignore the text for reasons, and I find it very weak. If Sixiang felt that good about other sites, how come it never came up when we cultivated at either ?
 
[X] She flew to Zeqing's home, the single most potent qi locus she could think of

Ice mom best background
 
archangis said:
The fact that there is nothing to contrast it against is not proof sufficient to you ?

I highly doubt that any site would end up killing our muse, but still it seems incredibly wishfull thinking to ignore what was explicitely in the text, for reasons that are not explicitely written out.

This is after all a story. Things like chekov guns exist.

You are making an argument that we should ignore the text for reasons, and I find it very weak. If Sixiang felt that good about other sites, how come it never came up when we cultivated at either ?
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That's a completely unfair standard to apply to @yrsillar's writing! I refuse to put that much pressure on the guy by infusing potentially dire meaning in every detail he ever doesn't provide. Sixiang saying that the Argent Vent is nifty tells us only that Sixiang thinks the Argent Vent is nifty; it does not tell us what Sixiang thinks about the other two options because they didn't say they're nifty- that's a level of detail that we know we can't expect and that would be completely unreasonable to demand, which you are by advancing this argument. You are demanding that @yrsillar's absence of any particular detail in the narrative be overtly intentional and consequential. This is absurd. Moreover, it's rude.

And I'm not arguing that we ignore the text, that we pretend it never happened. I'm arguing that the text, the statement, in question was unambiguously innocuous, and that it has almost no relevance to the situation at hand. That's not ignoring the text. You, however, are being inconsistent. Your question of "how come it never came up when we cultivated at either ?" directly contradicts your opposition to "wishfull thinking [...] for reasons that are not explicitely written out". You're literally drawing conclusions from an absence of text, which you condemned me for doing. Which I also didn't do. My position the whole time has been that Sixiang's praise for the Argent Vent was generic and unconvincing all by itself.
 
AbeoLogos said:
I'll respond in sort of reverse, since my brain's flowing that way right now.

If we approximate Ling Qi and Sixiang's reactions to things, which I believe you did earlier, then there's nothing to worry about. But this is annoying to me, because I don't wnat to actually be arguing over the merits of the different choices.

Related to that, I said I wasn't using my tautology to argue in favor of or against a particular choice. Because I wasn't. I wasn't and don't want to be engaging with the merits of the different sites; I'm arguing against a particular argument in favor of the Argent Vent. That's not the same thing as arguing against the Argent Vent, and if that confuses you I'd appreciate it if you just dropped the matter.

Most importantly, it's fucking absurd to draw strong conclusions from @yrsillar not specifying something about something. Sixiang, and every other character including Ling Qi, doesn't comment on all sorts of things all the time. There's only so much time that can go into writing the quest. It's unfair to the specific subject, @yrsillar, and other players to obsess over the absence of like details as though it's strongly suggestive, when comparing in-story subjects. There's fluctuations in focus, author energy, style, and context when any particular person, place, or thing is described in the narrative. We should appreciate that and keep a broad view of things, not use apparent discrepancies as a goddamn bludgeon.
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I'm not saying that you are arguing against the Argent Vent. What I am saying, is that your argument against this specific reason depends on the assumption that places of potent qi are pleasant to be around.

As for drawing strong conclusions from Yrs not specifying something about something, this is a line of reasoning you've used recently to argue against Ling Qi being able to draw in qi during the Spelunking mission. This is a line of argumentation a plethora of people use against AE's ability to consume qi. You use the argument in this very same post just above the reasons why you don't like it.
AbeoLogos said:
Remember that Ling Qi has already actively cultivated at the Silent Stones even while under the effects of her internal cultivation-penalizing conflict, and no mention was made of the site's specific connotations overtly burdening her efforts.
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But remember, we can't draw any strong conclusions about whether the site's specific connotations are overtly burdening her efforts because no mention was made of it in the story.

This is a line of argumentation that people in this thread use constantly to argue regarding the narrative importance of something. That if it is not there in the narrative, it is not important to the narrative. But now I can't use that argument for the reasons you've listed. For... reasons. Let's be honest here, the reason why the problems with this line of argumentation are now being brought up is that I am using it to argue against a position you are holding.

Ultimately, people place different weight on different things, have different assumptions about different things, and consider different things more important. I consider Sixiang expressing happiness with the Argent Vent as a data point that has weight and is relevant. You don't. The reasons you are against this line of reasoning are very unpersuasive to me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding it's importance.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I'm not saying that you are arguing against the Argent Vent. What I am saying, is that your argument against this specific reason depends on the assumption that places of potent qi are pleasant to be around.

As for drawing strong conclusions from Yrs not specifying something about something, this is a line of reasoning you've used recently to argue against Ling Qi being able to draw in qi during the Spelunking mission. This is a line of argumentation a plethora of people use against AE's ability to consume qi. You use the argument in this very same post just above the reasons why you don't like it.

But remember, we can't draw any strong conclusions about whether the site's specific connotations are overtly burdening her efforts because no mention was made of it in the story.
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The problem is that places of potent Qi being pleasant, unless the Qi itself is offensive to you, is something that was brought up a lot.

This is not some kind of 'people have different opinions about things'. It's that "Potent Qi" has often been brought up as a way that is pleasant and help oneself feel good. Abeo having an argument that "Spelunking Qi would feel bad" likewise was brought up because that particular Qi was noted to be bad to humans before. It didn't come from nowhere. Sixiang commenting that Argent Vent is nice, when it's the only site, is like me commenting that Lasagna is nice, when it's the food I am being served. We can expect sites to be good. For example, while Zeqing's site is very Yin (and Sixiang kinda Yang), it's also a music site, so it has things in common with Sixiang. It's going to be really nice to her, etc.

The issue here is that you are going on a tangent about secondary points of Datas to argue "This fits to Sixiang in particular" when it conflict with what Ling Qi actually thinks. Ling Qi's thoughts about the matter is simple:
  • Argent Vent is the site that has the best Foundational Qi
  • Zeqing Site is the one that has the most Potent Qi
  • Silent Stone is the only one to have Moon Qi
As such, Step 0 is that Zeqing site will be worse than Argent Vent about Foundational Qi, and worse than Silent Stone about 'Fit to Sixiang' Qi. Step 0 is that Silent Stone will be worse than Argent Vent about Foundational Qi and worse than Zeqing site about Potency. Step 0 is that Argent vent will be worse than Zeqing site about Potency and worse than Silent stone about 'Fit to Sixiang' Qi.

From then on, it can be assumed that any "Default" data that "Sixiang likes Argent Vent" is more than "Default like for good site" is false, because the one vote about "Sixiang likes that type of Qi" is about Silent Stone. The argument for Argent Vent is that it's about foundations. It will fit worse for Sixiang, and it will be less potent, but it will instead be better for foundation.

There is give and take for each choices, and the good old "This vote has everything the other votes have" argument should be forgotten.
 
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[X] She flew to the Silent Stones, though she disliked the implications, it was the only moon site she knew
 
Thor's Twin said:
I'm not saying that you are arguing against the Argent Vent. What I am saying, is that your argument against this specific reason depends on the assumption that places of potent qi are pleasant to be around.

As for drawing strong conclusions from Yrs not specifying something about something, this is a line of reasoning you've used recently to argue against Ling Qi being able to draw in qi during the Spelunking mission. This is a line of argumentation a plethora of people use against AE's ability to consume qi. You use the argument in this very same post just above the reasons why you don't like it.
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I was right about Ling Qi's ability to draw in the qi being compromised by its nature though. It was speculation based on provided details that ultimately bore out to be true. My worst fears weren't realized, but my premise was vindicated. It's also irrelevant, since it's a pretty different situation. I based my speculation on how Ling Qi might be able to interact with the qi based on information we got about the interaction between denizens of the two environments. That's quite a bit different than drawing conclusions about thing B because something wasn't said of it that was said of thing A, which is what I'm arguing against in specific here.

My basic premise is that Sixiang's comment on the Argent Vent a) doesn't tell us anything about the other two options, and b) isn't especially compelling because it just seemed innocuous in context and common of sites in general.

But remember, we can't draw any strong conclusions about whether the site's specific connotations are overtly burdening her efforts because no mention was made of it in the story.

This is a line of argumentation that people in this thread use constantly to argue regarding the narrative importance of something. That if it is not there in the narrative, it is not important to the narrative. But now I can't use that argument for the reasons you've listed. For... reasons. Let's be honest here, the reason why the problems with this line of argumentation are now being brought up is that I am using it to argue against a position you are holding.

Ultimately, people place different weight on different things, have different assumptions about different things, and consider different things more important. I consider Sixiang expressing happiness with the Argent Vent as a data point that has weight and is relevant. You don't. The reasons you are against this line of reasoning are very unpersuasive to me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding it's importance.
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Ah sorry, I should have been clearer here. I brought up the lack of mention in order to refute your claim in what I believed to be the logic space you were operating in, since it seemed more expedient than importing my own framework. Looking back, this was a dismissive (and fraught) approach. Sorry about that.
 
AbeoLogos said:
That's a completely unfair standard to apply to @yrsillar's writing! I refuse to put that much pressure on the guy by infusing potentially dire meaning in every detail he ever doesn't provide. Sixiang saying that the Argent Vent is nifty tells us only that Sixiang thinks the Argent Vent is nifty; it does not tell us what Sixiang thinks about the other two options because they didn't say they're nifty- that's a level of detail that we know we can't expect and that would be completely unreasonable to demand, which you are by advancing this argument. You are demanding that @yrsillar's absence of any particular detail in the narrative be overtly intentional and consequential. This is absurd. Moreover, it's rude.

And I'm not arguing that we ignore the text, that we pretend it never happened. I'm arguing that the text, the statement, in question was unambiguously innocuous, and that it has almost no relevance to the situation at hand. That's not ignoring the text. You, however, are being inconsistent. Your question of "how come it never came up when we cultivated at either ?" directly contradicts your opposition to "wishfull thinking [...] for reasons that are not explicitely written out". You're literally drawing conclusions from an absence of text, which you condemned me for doing. Which I also didn't do. My position the whole time has been that Sixiang's praise for the Argent Vent was generic and unconvincing all by itself.
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I condemned you for making shit up wholesame, it's very different from getting information from the presence/absence of certain describtors. You are explicitely saying that we should ignore the text as something innocuous and that anyway all locuses are equally good for Sixiang despite only one being explicitely called out as good for sixiang. It's for me both weak and wishfull thinking. If we can't use the text as basis to decide what to choose we should simply roll the dice on what we choose because we can't make informed choices anyway.

Moreover your argument about yrs sit badly with me because you are implying that we can't expect yrs to be a good writer and do things like chekov guns, and that expecting such is unfair to him. Which is pretty rude to me but whatever, meta arguments have very little purpose.
 
Arkeus said:
The problem is that places of potent Qi being pleasant, unless the Qi itself is offensive to you, is something that was brought up a lot.
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Er, was it? As far as I recall places of potent Qi have always been described through the particular flavor of whatever that brand of Qi happens to be, so whether a particular bit of Qi feels good/bad depends on if you consider something like "oily" or "placid" or whatever descriptive word used makes for a positive thing or not. I can't actually recall any mention of the intensity of Qi in a location changing how that Qi feels, and my impression is that spirits and cultivators tend to flock to potent loci more for the cultivation benefits rather than finding those places inherently pleasant.
 
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Bear in mind Sixiang joined us partway through our first year, so they've had months to get used to our little Outer Sect Vent. If anything, I'd say it makes more sense for her comment to simply be them positively comparing our new Inner Vent to that weaker Outer one.
 
me.me.here said:
Er, was it? As far as I recall places of potent Qi have always been described through the particular flavor of whatever that brand of Qi happens to be, so whether a particular bit of Qi feels good/bad depends on if you consider something like "oily" or "placid" or whatever descriptive word used makes for a positive thing or not. I can't actually recall any mention of the intensity of Qi in a location changing how that Qi feels, and my impression is that spirits and cultivators tend to flock to potent loci more for the cultivation benefits rather than finding those places inherently pleasant.
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Yeah it was.

In the first thread when there is a new site it has been brought up a lot that it's pleasant to be around, and spirit beasts in particular are attracted to sites by instincts. Obviously, say, a water spirit won't like a fire site, and so on. But again, I don't think anyone believed either Argent or Zeqing site is 'bad' for Sixiang. They aren't.

A site "Feeling Good" is something that's basically the default as long as they can affect you.
archangis said:
I condemned you for making shit up wholesame, it's very different from getting information from the presence/absence of certain describtors. You are explicitely saying that we should ignore the text as something innocuous and that anyway all locuses are equally good for Sixiang despite only one being explicitely called out as good for sixiang. It's for me both weak and wishfull thinking. If we can't use the text as basis to decide what to choose we should simply roll the dice on what we choose because we can't make informed choices anyway.

Moreover your argument about yrs sit badly with me because you are implying that we can't expect yrs to be a good writer and do things like chekov guns, and that expecting such is unfair to him. Which is pretty rude to me but whatever, meta arguments have very little purpose.
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He isn't "making shit up wholesale", he is saying that given that every sites feels good unless they don't work for you at all, Sixiang saying "this site feels good" when it's the only site we have access to, and she can also compare it to the weaker argent vent, means exactly nothing.
 
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archangis said:
I condemned you for making shit up wholesame, it's very different from getting information from the presence/absence of certain describtors. You are explicitely saying that we should ignore the text as something innocuous and that anyway all locuses are equally good for Sixiang despite only one being explicitely called out as good for sixiang. It's for me both weak and wishfull thinking. If we can't use the text as basis to decide what to choose we should simply roll the dice on what we choose because we can't make informed choices anyway.

Moreover your argument about yrs sit badly with me because you are implying that we can't expect yrs to be a good writer and do things like chekov guns, and that expecting such is unfair to him. Which is pretty rude to me but whatever, meta arguments have very little purpose.
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A few things, some mildly pedantic. I didn't say all qi locuses are "equally good for Sixiang", and in fact even your favored quote doesn't quite claim that the Argent Vent is "good" for Sixiang (only that it's agreeable), and I never said we should ignore the text. After all, I'm not ignoring the text. Being able to use the text to make decisions requires the power to interpret its meaning and relevance. I'm not saying that "text" "doesn't matter", I'm saying that after examining a particular chunk of it, I don't agree with you that it's relevant. I've used the text as a basis to decide that it isn't relevant to the matter at hand.

Also, I don't think that @yrsillar not plotting out the particular relevance of neglecting to describe various sites in particular terms in order to hint at info relevant to our current situation would be "bad writing" If good writing is as obtuse as that, I'll pass. My criticism is with your apparent standards, not @yrsillar's writing. Which is fine by the way. Hell, I even at no point suggested that he's incapable of foreshadowing or callbacks- he's actually pretty decent at it! What's dumb and unfair is expecting literally everything said or not said to potentially be one of those, and interpreting them as though they definitely are.

me.me.here said:
Er, was it? As far as I recall places of potent Qi have always been described through the particular flavor of whatever that brand of Qi happens to be, so whether a particular bit of Qi feels good/bad depends on if you consider something like "oily" or "placid" or whatever descriptive word used makes for a positive thing or not. I can't actually recall any mention of the intensity of Qi in a location changing how that Qi feels, and my impression is that spirits and cultivators tend to flock to potent loci more for the cultivation benefits rather than finding those places inherently pleasant.
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It's fairly common for potent qi locuses to give Ling Qi a bit of a rush or headying sensation, by my recollection, which she frequently comments on as invigorating or some other modifier with positive connotations.
 
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Arkeus said:
Yeah it was.

In the first thread when there is a new site it has been brought up a lot that it's pleasant to be around, and spirit beasts in particular are attracted to sites by instincts. Obviously, say, a water spirit won't like a fire site, and so on. But again, I don't think anyone believed either Argent or Zeqing site is 'bad' for Sixiang. They aren't.

A site "Feeling Good" is something that's basically the default as long as they can affect you.

He isn't "making shit up wholesale", he is saying that given that every sites feels good unless they don't work for you at all, Sixiang saying "this site feels good" when it's the only site we have access to, and she can also compare it to the weaker argent vent, means exactly nothing.
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Could you quote some of those though? Because I am going through and trying to find those quotes. I have looked through the first argent vent and the feeling she had has a weird resonance with her dantian.

Ling Qi could feel an odd quivering in the 'skin' that had formed around her dantian when she advanced to the third stage of Argent Soul. Was that what Li Suyin was talking about?
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Then I looked at the next spot we found. The cavern in seperent treasure. It was not described as feeling good. Rather it was,

This place was alive she could feel, and the Qi in the air was thick and cloying.
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Next I looked at the starlight meadow which did not describe the feeling of qi that it gave off.

Then I went to the mystic vale.

The qi too was rich and wholesome
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This is pretty close to pleasant and feel good so I do think it would count even if the wording is not exact.

The black pool is simply described as having powerful qi.

At the far rear end of the ravine though, lay a frozen black pool, mirror smooth and umarred, the color of ink. Powerful Qi radiated from it, and looking down, Ling Qi felt that she might stare into its depths forever if she was not careful. Only by steeling her will could she pull her eyes away
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Then as we look at the windblown snowfield we once again the first description we get is

Ling Qi took a deep breath of frozen air, feeling the way the wind qi played against her extended senses, it was a powerful thing, and the qi of water and mountain was strong as well, but it hardly seemed better than the black pool.
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So right now it sounds like me that you are remembering your own version of the sites and simple presenting it as truth without any quotes to back it up. If you could find quotes to back up your idea that would be great because right now I have to say that you are wrong with the idea that sites give a good feeling unless it states otherwise. I have not found that at all in my searching. Powerful sites give off powerful feelings and only rarely is that feeling described as pleasant or "feel good."
 
Arkeus said:
The problem is that places of potent Qi being pleasant, unless the Qi itself is offensive to you, is something that was brought up a lot.

This is not some kind of 'people have different opinions about things'. It's that "Potent Qi" has often been brought up as a way that is pleasant and help oneself feel good. Abeo having an argument that "Spelunking Qi would feel bad" likewise was brought up because that particular Qi was noted to be bad to humans before. It didn't come from nowhere. Sixiang commenting that Argent Vent is nice, when it's the only site, is like me commenting that Lasagna is nice, when it's the food I am being served. We can expect sites to be good. For example, while Zeqing's site is very Yin (and Sixiang kinda Yang), it's also a music site, so it has things in common with Sixiang. It's going to be really nice to her, etc.

The issue here is that you are going on a tangent about secondary points of Datas to argue "This fits to Sixiang in particular" when it conflict with what Ling Qi actually things. Ling Qi's thoughts about the matter is simple:
  • Argent Vent is the site that has the best Foundational Qi
  • Zeqing Site is the one that has the most Potent Qi
  • Silent Stone is the only one to have Moon Qi
As such, Step 0 is that Zeqing site will be worse than Argent Vent about Foundational Qi, and worse than Silent Stone about 'Fit to Sixiang' Qi. Step 0 is that Silent Stone will be worse than Argent Vent about Foundational Qi and worse than Zeqing site about Potency. Step 0 is that Argent vent will be worse than Zeqing site about Potency and worse than Silent stone about 'Fit to Sixiang' Qi.

From then on, it can be assumed that any "Default" data that "Sixiang likes Argent Vent" is more than "Default like for good site" is false, because the one vote about "Sixiang likes that type of Qi" is about Silent Stone. The argument for Argent Vent is that it's about foundations. It will fit worse for Sixiang, and it will be less potent, but it will instead be better for foundation.

There is give and take for each choices, and the good old "This vote has everything the other votes have" argument should be forgotten.
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I mean... right from the get go you are making a confusing argument. The Argent Vent was not the only site that Sixiang had experience with. They also had experience with the Mystic Vale, Zeqing's home, and the original argent vent in the outer sect. This first part of your argument is that since Sixiang only had exposure to this one site at this one time she's going to say something nice about it, and that's not particularly relevant. If that were true, then she would have said something nice at any other time we encountered a powerful qi site because Sixiang would have only had exposure to that one site at that specific time.

And then you are making the same suitability argument that has been dropped previously. The suitability of the sites is not the issue. How "nice" the sites play with Sixiang is not an issue. If the sites were not suitable for Sixiang, they wouldn't have been offered as choices because Ling Qi wouldn't have thought of them as a choice. The argument is simply "Sixiang would be happier cultivating X then in Y or Z because of A." "A," of course being her stated happiness regarding the argent vent which has not been used to describe any of the other two sites.

We can do it in a different way if you wish, and that is in an inverse. "Sixiang would not be happy cultivating in Y or Z because of B." "B," then, is the unpleasantness associated with the Silent Stones and Zeqing's home.

I'm not saying that the Argent Vent is going to be better for Sixiang, I'm not saying that the other sites are going to be necessarily worse. I've made the argument that the Sixiang's state of mind while being in those places has a possibility to affect whether a site is good or bad, but that is a tertiary concern. I am saying that Sixiang would be happier to cultivate at the argent vent than any of the other sites because of "A" in the positive and now "B" in the negative.

Moving on to the next part... you start your "Step 0" with assumptions. There is no such thing as 'fit to Sixiang' qi. You are assuming that moon qi fits Sixiang because of her moon nature. But in that case, Zeqing would also fit to Sixiang because of the music and Sixiang is a spirit of music as well. Your Step 0 should be that:
  • Argent Vent is the site that has the best Foundational Qi
  • Zeqing Site is the one that has the most Potent Qi
  • Silent Stone is the only one to have Moon Qi
If this looks awfully similar, that is because it is copied directly from your post. This is our step zero. The next step is to determine what each of those things mean. What does having the best "foundational" qi mean in this context? What does having the most "potent qi" mean in this context? What does having moon qi mean in this context? We don't know, and there is very little information to go on.

Sixiang is a moon spirit, so would moon qi be of the most help to her right now? Or would Foundational qi be the most helpful to shore up her fading spirit? Or would having the most potent qi be of the most use because it has the most qi to absorb? Sixiang did not say that she needs moon qi, so does that mean she doesn't need to go to the Silent Stones? Sixiang didn't say that she need foundational qi, so does that mean that she shouldn't go to the argent vent? She did say she needed more potent qi, but is going all the way up to 12 on the background qi really what Sixiang needs?

There is little to no actual information to use regarding deciding on the primary reasons, and so we are resorting to secondary means to justify voting for or against a certain site.

If your argument is that the only things we should concern ourselves with are the primary reasons for each choice... then I'm going to drag you back to the past too. Specifically when you voted for a specific individual to challenge simply because you wanted a music rival even though you thought that we would lose. Ling Qi's primary purpose for choosing a specific individual to challenge was her belief that she could beat them, not because she wanted a music rival. But everybody does that. We all vote for secondary or tertiary reasons, and your stance that we shouldn't vote for those reasons goes against your own voting record and other people's voting histories.

AbeoLogos said:
I was right about Ling Qi's ability to draw in the qi being compromised by its nature though. It was speculation based on provided details that ultimately bore out to be true. My worst fears weren't realized, but my premise was vindicated. It's also irrelevant, since it's a pretty different situation. I based my speculation on how Ling Qi might be able to interact with the qi based on information we got about the interaction between denizens of the two environments. That's quite a bit different than drawing conclusions about thing B because something wasn't said of it that was said of thing A, which is what I'm arguing against in specific here.

My basic premise is that Sixiang's comment on the Argent Vent a) doesn't tell us anything about the other two options, and b) isn't especially compelling because it just seemed innocuous in context and common of sites in general.

Ah sorry, I should have been clearer here. I brought up the lack of mention in order to refute your claim in what I believed to be the logic space you were operating in, since it seemed more expedient than importing my own framework. Looking back, this was a dismissive (and fraught) approach. Sorry about that.
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A way to argue a point suddenly does not become irrelevant because the situation is different. Specifically, I'm talking about this post you made during your argument:
AbeoLogos said:
Yes and in neither of those cases did Ling Qi attempt to metabolize the qi. I never said they're not using qi, I said Ling Qi likely can't take it into her system safely for her own use.
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Specifically, you said that "Ling Qi [never] attempt[ed] to metabolize the qi." That line of argument derives itself specifically because the author never mentioned it. And yet, low and behold, Ling Qi could metabolize the qi, it was simply in lesser amounts. The fact that you were partially correct is of no relevance to the fact that you used this specific method of argumentation. It seemed that you drew your conclusion that Ling Qi couldn't metabolize the qi because: A) something wasn't said in the narrative, and B) Qi draining had been mentioned in other contexts. You did have other data points to point at to support your conclusion, but ultimately you based your assumption on the fact that the narrative did not mention Ling Qi draining qi when she should have been under normal circumstances. That you now say I shouldn't use that line of argument... is a bit strange in my opinion.

And your basic premise has ignored the other aspects I've pointed out in previous posts regarding this topic. While I've iterated it more clearly above, I'll iterate it again here.

The only site out of the three choices that it can be said where Sixiang has had a positive reaction to was the Argent Vent. Or, to state it in a different way, two sites, out of the three choices, have caused Sixiang a negative reaction; the Silent Stones and Zeqing's Home. I consider the combination of these two facts to be pertinent to my decision making.
 
TimEd said:
this is categorically untrue though?
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No?

Sixiang was powerless and helpless in the dream which is based on the Silent Stone's location. It was the location which she realized her fear of death and non-existence.

Sixiang also does not particularly like Zeqing. It is unpleasant for her to confront a creature so much more powerful than her that desires to consume her. This uncomfortableness would most likely extend to the place that is at the center of Zeqing's power and is most saturated by her presence.

Edit: Also, now that I'm thinking about it, the uncomfortableness could be compounded by her newfound fear of death and non-existence.
 
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Arkeus said:
He isn't "making shit up wholesale", he is saying that given that every sites feels good unless they don't work for you at all, Sixiang saying "this site feels good" when it's the only site we have access to, and she can also compare it to the weaker argent vent, means exactly nothing.
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His entire argument is based upon all qi locuses feeling good to Sixiang despite only one being called out as such. Yes, that's making stuff up.

AbeoLogos said:
A few things, some mildly pedantic. I didn't say all qi locuses are "equally good for Sixiang", and in fact even your favored quote doesn't quite claim that the Argent Vent is "good" for Sixiang (only that it's agreeable), and I never said we should ignore the text. After all, I'm not ignoring the text. Being able to use the text to make decisions requires the power to interpret its meaning and relevance. I'm not saying that "text" "doesn't matter", I'm saying that after examining a particular chunk of it, I don't agree with you that it's relevant. I've used the text as a basis to decide that it isn't relevant to the matter at hand.

Also, I don't think that @yrsillar not plotting out the particular relevance of neglecting to describe various sites in particular terms in order to hint at info relevant to our current situation would be "bad writing" If good writing is as obtuse as that, I'll pass. My criticism is with your apparent standards, not @yrsillar's writing. Which is fine by the way. Hell, I even at no point suggested that he's incapable of foreshadowing or callbacks- he's actually pretty decent at it! What's dumb and unfair is expecting literally everything said or not said to potentially be one of those, and interpreting them as though they definitely are.


It's fairly common for potent qi locuses to give Ling Qi a bit of a rush or headying sensation, by my recollection, which she frequently comments on as invigorating or some other modifier with positive connotations.
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Sixiang explicitely call it "good stuff", buddy. Not merely agreeable.

Aaaah you didn't ignore the text, you read the text and choose to ignore it. Very different somehow. No clue how either.

So, you do believe that yrs can do foreshadowing but for some reasons, the only time Sixiang (who barely cultivate and has found very little interest in cultivation) got interested in a site can't possibly be foreshadowing when we are choosing a site for her ? That's a wild position to take.

Lastly, as @Neshuakadal showed, they are described as powerfull and rarely as feeling good. Moreover what humans feels is probably very different from what spirit feels (after all I believe that Sixiang doesn't have argent arts, so their use of the source is probably very different from ours).

And to add something to the discussion, the stone site is earth, moon and sun. Cross element contamination is plausible and earth would be terrible for Sixiang and us.
 
TimEd said:
this is categorically untrue though?
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"It's fine, spirits like that don't hold grudges, we aren't made for it," Sixiang whispered reassuringly. "I have to say, I understand why it's so cold in here now though."
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"How frightening, she wants to eat you both," Sixiang shivered. "You can sit here in front of her, but you freak out at a bit of cavorting, how strange."
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So saying that Sixiang has had negative reaction to Ice mom's home may be a bit too strong Sixiang doesn't seem to enjoy it there. These quotes are from
Year 43, week 47-48, Part 2. It shows that she is cold, cold enough to mention it. When someone states about how cold something is it usually means that they have noticed it. Being cold is not a comfortable feeling. The second quote is pretty interesting. Is Sixiang shivering from the cold for the frightening aspect of such a hungry spirit in front of her? The second part relates to the story. To me it shows me that sixiang is comfortable with a bit of cavorting, yet on the flip side is uncomfortable sitting in front of ice mom.
 
Neshuakadal said:
So saying that Sixiang has had negative reaction to Ice mom's home may be a bit too strong Sixiang doesn't seem to enjoy it there. These quotes are from
Year 43, week 47-48, Part 2. It shows that she is cold, cold enough to mention it. When someone states about how cold something is it usually means that they have noticed it. Being cold is not a comfortable feeling. The second quote is pretty interesting. Is Sixiang shivering from the cold for the frightening aspect of such a hungry spirit in front of her? The second part relates to the story. To me it shows me that sixiang is comfortable with a bit of cavorting, yet on the flip side is uncomfortable sitting in front of ice mom.
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To be fair to six here, LQ being comfortable in the presence of a high 4th realm spirit of darkness isn't exactly sane behavior. Sixiang doesn't know Zeqing that well and is very aware just how close to their nature spirits tend to be, so they're naturally wary of the powerful being they're in the presence of.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I mean... right from the get go you are making a confusing argument. The Argent Vent was not the only site that Sixiang had experience with. They also had experience with the Mystic Vale, Zeqing's home, and the original argent vent in the outer sect. This first part of your argument is that since Sixiang only had exposure to this one site at this one time she's going to say something nice about it, and that's not particularly relevant. If that were true, then she would have said something nice at any other time we encountered a powerful qi site because Sixiang would have only had exposure to that one site at that specific time.

And then you are making the same suitability argument that has been dropped previously. The suitability of the sites is not the issue. How "nice" the sites play with Sixiang is not an issue. If the sites were not suitable for Sixiang, they wouldn't have been offered as choices because Ling Qi wouldn't have thought of them as a choice. The argument is simply "Sixiang would be happier cultivating X then in Y or Z because of A." "A," of course being her stated happiness regarding the argent vent which has not been used to describe any of the other two sites.

We can do it in a different way if you wish, and that is in an inverse. "Sixiang would not be happy cultivating in Y or Z because of B." "B," then, is the unpleasantness associated with the Silent Stones and Zeqing's home.

I'm not saying that the Argent Vent is going to be better for Sixiang, I'm not saying that the other sites are going to be necessarily worse. I've made the argument that the Sixiang's state of mind while being in those places has a possibility to affect whether a site is good or bad, but that is a tertiary concern. I am saying that Sixiang would be happier to cultivate at the argent vent than any of the other sites because of "A" in the positive and now "B" in the negative.

Moving on to the next part... you start your "Step 0" with assumptions. There is no such thing as 'fit to Sixiang' qi. You are assuming that moon qi fits Sixiang because of her moon nature. But in that case, Zeqing would also fit to Sixiang because of the music and Sixiang is a spirit of music as well. Your Step 0 should be that:
  • Argent Vent is the site that has the best Foundational Qi
  • Zeqing Site is the one that has the most Potent Qi
  • Silent Stone is the only one to have Moon Qi
If this looks awfully similar, that is because it is copied directly from your post. This is our step zero. The next step is to determine what each of those things mean. What does having the best "foundational" qi mean in this context? What does having the most "potent qi" mean in this context? What does having moon qi mean in this context? We don't know, and there is very little information to go on.

Sixiang is a moon spirit, so would moon qi be of the most help to her right now? Or would Foundational qi be the most helpful to shore up her fading spirit? Or would having the most potent qi be of the most use because it has the most qi to absorb? Sixiang did not say that she needs moon qi, so does that mean she doesn't need to go to the Silent Stones? Sixiang didn't say that she need foundational qi, so does that mean that she shouldn't go to the argent vent? She did say she needed more potent qi, but is going all the way up to 12 on the background qi really what Sixiang needs?

There is little to no actual information to use regarding deciding on the primary reasons, and so we are resorting to secondary means to justify voting for or against a certain site.

If your argument is that the only things we should concern ourselves with are the primary reasons for each choice... then I'm going to drag you back to the past too. Specifically when you voted for a specific individual to challenge simply because you wanted a music rival even though you thought that we would lose. Ling Qi's primary purpose for choosing a specific individual to challenge was her belief that she could beat them, not because she wanted a music rival. But everybody does that. We all vote for secondary or tertiary reasons, and your stance that we shouldn't vote for those reasons goes against your own voting record and other people's voting histories.


A way to argue a point suddenly does not become irrelevant because the situation is different. Specifically, I'm talking about this post you made during your argument:

Specifically, you said that "Ling Qi [never] attempt[ed] to metabolize the qi." That line of argument derives itself specifically because the author never mentioned it. And yet, low and behold, Ling Qi could metabolize the qi, it was simply in lesser amounts. The fact that you were partially correct is of no relevance to the fact that you used this specific method of argumentation. It seemed that you drew your conclusion that Ling Qi couldn't metabolize the qi because: A) something wasn't said in the narrative, and B) Qi draining had been mentioned in other contexts. You did have other data points to point at to support your conclusion, but ultimately you based your assumption on the fact that the narrative did not mention Ling Qi draining qi when she should have been under normal circumstances. That you now say I shouldn't use that line of argument... is a bit strange in my opinion.

And your basic premise has ignored the other aspects I've pointed out in previous posts regarding this topic. While I've iterated it more clearly above, I'll iterate it again here.

The only site out of the three choices that it can be said where Sixiang has had a positive reaction to was the Argent Vent. Or, to state it in a different way, two sites, out of the three choices, have caused Sixiang a negative reaction; the Silent Stones and Zeqing's Home. I consider the combination of these two facts to be pertinent to my decision making.
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Uh, Arkeus was saying it was the only site we had access to at the time, not that it's the only site Sixiang had ever been exposed to. During the tournament week, I don't believe Ling Qi actually visited any sites. At the point that Ling Qi poked the Argent Vent in her cave, she'd been some days off from the vicinity of any qi loci. And the idea that not getting Sixiang's opinion on other sites means anything is silly. As you love to keep pointing out, Sixiang's only, as far as I can remember, ever directly commented on one site, ever. We can assign this special significance or not. I think the latter is the sounder choice. Different scenes get different levels of detail; Ling Qi has whole arts that barely warrant a passing mention while cultivation, yet play their part in combat. I'm not going to draw conclusions about what that means about that cultivation, because I can't. The information literally does not exist.

As for your bringing up my arguments from the chthonic qi debate, this is kind of vexing. I brought up the fact that Ling Qi hadn't tried absorbing any as of that point as part of refuting your assertion that she could absorb the qi because it was qi(which I'd never denied, despite you implying that I had claimed it wasn't qi). It was not an argument for why she MUST not be able to metabolize it, which would be nonsense as an argument. It was pointing out that we hadn't actually seen Ling Qi absorb any, so we couldn't be sure that she can absorb it just because it's qi. Like, we were told there was mutual toxicity, there was reason to be skeptical. My position did not derive solely or principally from yrsillar not establishing something, it was concern based on information that had recently been introduced and was directly related to the nature of qi involved. You've chosen a bad example as a gotcha.

archangis said:
His entire argument is based upon all qi locuses feeling good to Sixiang despite only one being called out as such. Yes, that's making stuff up.



Sixiang explicitely call it "good stuff", buddy. Not merely agreeable.

Aaaah you didn't ignore the text, you read the text and choose to ignore it. Very different somehow. No clue how either.

So, you do believe that yrs can do foreshadowing but for some reasons, the only time Sixiang (who barely cultivate and has found very little interest in cultivation) got interested in a site can't possibly be foreshadowing when we are choosing a site for her ? That's a wild position to take.

Lastly, as @Neshuakadal showed, they are described as powerfull and rarely as feeling good. Moreover what humans feels is probably very different from what spirit feels (after all I believe that Sixiang doesn't have argent arts, so their use of the source is probably very different from ours).

And to add something to the discussion, the stone site is earth, moon and sun. Cross element contamination is plausible and earth would be terrible for Sixiang and us.
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...Again though, I didn't claim "all qi locuses feel good to Sixiang". That's a mischaracterization of my position. Would it kill you to employ an ounce of nuance? Christ. My reading of the story has lead me to believe that locations with high densities of qi are broadly pleasant to qi-sensitive beings, barring incompatibility. Can you see how that's a different stance than "all qi locuses feel good to Sixiang"?
Leaving the craft room behind, she next came upon a heavy wooden door, banded with formation reinforced iron. Swinging the heavy door open, Ling QI sucked in a surprised breath as potent qi washed over her.

"Now that's a good feel," Sixiang sighed happily as Ling Qi stepped past the threshold. The room beyond was rough, unlike the other rooms, it seemed like a natural cavern, including a glittering reverse forest of limestone stalactites hanging from it's high ceiling. The floor was smooth and flat, sloping gently downward until it reached a softly bubbling pool of liquid silver. In the center of the pool rise an outcropping of glittering yellow crystal, shot through with streaks of pale green.

Argent Vent(Lesser): Grants 15 resource dice to spiritual and physical cultivation. Increases successes when cultivating Argent Arts by a factor of 1.7. Grants one virtual Yellow Stone per week(4 per turn) to cultivation.

The qi in the room was potent, very much so. Ling Qi spent a few minutes luxuriating in the mist which rose steadily from the cracks in the crystal outcropping, but soon moved on.
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In the full context, Ling Qi was also quite enamored with the site, though it's phrased entirely in the context of it being a high-qi environment, not anything to do with its particular nature. I don't think that's telling one way or another, really though.

You can cut out acting like disagreeing with you is bad-faith. I have different opinions than you. This is allowed. I'm not lying or trying to trick anyone, so you can stop acting like I'm an asshole. I'd find your position a lot more compelling if Sixiang's commentary routinely made it into the narrative in high fidelity. As it is, huge amounts of our conversation with them happen off-screen, or get summarized without specifics. And you know, a lot of the time things are just there for flavor in a scene?

Foreshadowing is perfectly possible in general, but at the time of the very first update in this thread, I don't think that yrsillar had Sixiang's current conundrum in mind. I feel pretty confident about this, because he's made comments alluding to the bloody moon dream's fallout disrupting pacing a bit. If it was something he'd strongly planned for, then this seems unlikely. There's also the fact that it presupposes that all possible outcomes of the dream/trial would lead to the same manifestation of Sixiang's response which results in the "choose the site" decision point. Seems pretty unlikely.
 
AbeoLogos said:
...Again though, I didn't claim "all qi locuses feel good to Sixiang". That's a mischaracterization of my position. Would it kill you to employ an ounce of nuance? Christ. My reading of the story has lead me to believe that locations with high densities of qi are broadly pleasant to qi-sensitive beings, barring incompatibility. Can you see how that's a different stance than "all qi locuses feel good to Sixiang"?
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No. Actually I can't. For me one is just a more verbose rephrasing of the other, but beside that there is no difference.

AbeoLogos said:
Foreshadowing is perfectly possible in general, but at the time of the very first update in this thread, I don't think that yrsillar had Sixiang's current conundrum in mind. I feel pretty confident about this, because he's made comments alluding to the bloody moon dream's fallout disrupting pacing a bit. If it was something he'd strongly planned for, then this seems unlikely. There's also the fact that it presupposes that all possible outcomes of the dream/trial would lead to the same manifestation of Sixiang's response which results in the "choose the site" decision point. Seems pretty unlikely.
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I think that raising our social link with Sixiang (and thus this vote) was something that was intended since the start of the quest, yes. The fact that it came up earlier than expected doesn't change that.

As for the rest, disagreeing with me is not bad faith. I am pretty sure you actually believes what you are saying.
 
archangis said:
No. Actually I can't. For me one is just a more verbose rephrasing of the other, but beside that there is no difference.



I think that raising our social link with Sixiang (and thus this vote) was something that was intended since the start of the quest, yes. The fact that it came up earlier than expected doesn't change that.

As for the rest, disagreeing with me is not bad faith. I am pretty sure you actually believes what you are saying.
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Then I'm gonna chalk it up to mutual inability to communicate. The effort is completely fruitless if I can't get shades of meaning across.
 
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