Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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to elaborate on @memoryofglory 's point. The Bai are ruthless, and certainly want Everyone In Their Place, but they also seem to be Ruthlessly Pragmatic about it, whereas this peek at the Hui suggests that the Hui weren't just domineering tyrants, they went out of their way to flaunt it.

Are they though? The faction we've dealt with, sure, but we've also seen some Bai go around and play bandit just because they aren't happy, which could have had dramatic diplomatic consequences. They also alienated all their vassals.

Though I agree they're not as idiotic about it.
 
Are they though? The faction we've dealt with, sure, but we've also seen some Bai go around and play bandit just because they aren't happy, which could have had dramatic diplomatic consequences. They also alienated all their vassals.

Though I agree they're not as idiotic about it.

I think the biggest difference is that we have seen the Bai can take criticism and decent in the ranks and still continue on. That they are capable of seeing they have made a wrong choice and accept it. While they may be superior that does not mean they think themselves perfect.

The Hui began thinking of themselves as perfect. Whenever we've seen or heard of any sort of decent or bad mouthing of the Hui that person ended up dead. Anything that tried to poke at their bubble of perfection was rooted out immediately.
 
Is it weird that my reaction to the Hui wasn't "what a scumbag" but instead disappointment at being robbed of an in-depth lecture on the intricacies of qi-based stitching?
Honestly? Same. It even took me a while to realize that this was all an insult because I was still hoping/thinking about young Shenhua's creation reveal.
 
to elaborate on @memoryofglory 's point. The Bai are ruthless, and certainly want Everyone In Their Place, but they also seem to be Ruthlessly Pragmatic about it, whereas this peek at the Hui suggests that the Hui weren't just domineering tyrants, they went out of their way to flaunt it.

I mean, when we first met Meizhen's mini boss squad they did casual intimidation tactics just cuz that's what Bai do. When Meizhen lost here temper and went for a walk she would reduce reds to tears just by existing and I don't think most Bai would have given two shits. Also remember the story Meng Diu told about how the Bai.


"A small anecdote perhaps," Meng Diu mused. "During the rampage of Ogodei, my Grandfather reached out to the Bai in desperation, seeking to evacuate mortals and common cultivators from the flooding and raids. Our reply was silence."

Ling Qi was silent as she waited for Meng Diu to continue.

"Matters grew worse, the flooding from the storms drove the spirits of the fens mad," she said contemplatively. "My Uncle was sent north to beg for aid. There was none. The war worsened further, our armies were confined to the cities, lest the barbarians slip behind out lines to sack them. People fled north. At the borders of the thousand lakes, they were greeted with spearpoints and bolts. The Bai slew any who dared pass the boundaries, no matter how desperate their plight. After the rampage, they demanded reparations for the trespass."

Ling Qi nodded faintly. "That is cruel," she said carefully.

"I am not unobjective," Meng Diu said thoughtfully. "It was at least partly a matter of politics. The Hui were vehement about their sovereignty, and would have used their connections to the Court to cause troubles if the Bai had sent us aid. Yet the Bai are mighty, are they not? Certainly in those days before the rise of Sun Shao. Arrogance and apathy. Indeed, when the situation was reversed, and the folk of the Lakes flooded south from undefended settlements, the Bai did threaten us for the return of their people, and the Hui ordered the border closed. Ten thousand years and more, and I am to believe that they have changed now?" she sneered.

The Bai aren't just merciless and vindictive, they cultivate cruelty. There's a reason Sun was able to convince a shit load of vassals to just up and abandon their lands and people and go run off to burn down a murder jungle and live there.
 
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tl;dr:

They were both dicks, but the Bai have the good luck to have survived their Asshole Tax and maybe change for the better.

The Hui, meanwhile, had the next best thing to a xianxia protagonist happen to them.
 
The whole thing reads a lot to me like he's super insecure.
He did that pretty much just to demonstrate that being a Sect Elder and a Master Crafter is less important than being his armcandy, and that scheduled lessons and prior arrangements are inferior to his whims.

Thats not just arrogance, thats someone who's insecure and does this to feel better. And by doing so, he demonstrates that he's not very important and has nothing better to do.

There's being a blood soaked tyrant and there's being a dick. The Bai are generally the former, and the Hui look to be the later.

to elaborate on @memoryofglory 's point. The Bai are ruthless, and certainly want Everyone In Their Place, but they also seem to be Ruthlessly Pragmatic about it, whereas this peek at the Hui suggests that the Hui weren't just domineering tyrants, they went out of their way to flaunt it.
Its different forms of tyranny.
They're all ways to retain political power.

Keep in mind that the Bai had existed in a position of strength for a long time. For a very long time, the worst enemies of the Bai are other Bai. Consider the political impacts of the known points in time off the Ascendants information:
-Yao is supreme in combat and reigned until his ascension. He had in life cleared out basically every threat in and around their territory by murder.

-Yao's ascension removed a consequence from bloodsoaked tyrants. They can no longer by haunted by the ghosts of those they had slain. This paves the way to extremely brutal suppression, considering their population is pretty much entirely ethnic Bai - you can probably guess what happened to other groups over the ages.

-Tsu and Zhi's ascensions throws this into havoc as agriculture induced population explosion and Tribulation induced rebellions made absolute tyranny no longer sustainable. They solved this with the discovery of Bronze(cementing power under the elites who could organize bronzemaking ) and Caste system(guaranteeing certain rights to lessers in exchange for submission, rather than the previous total submission), though the Zheng ascensions continue to raise merry hell, except possibly for the booze one.

-Then you get up to Sun Shao's rebellion and the Bai found themselves in a position of weakness, without a White, so they couldn't project power like they used to, but still retaining their massive stratums of historical power to protect their power.

TLDR - The Bai appear ruthlessly pragmatic because they had already Been There and Done That for absolute ruthlessness, and survived the consequences of such. They adapted.

The Hui on the other hand have the problem of trying to retain their grip on power without having ever been truly strong enough to get out of suppression mode. They fell into the trap of suppression:
1) Lack the strength to contest their vassals directly.
2) Disrupt the strengths of vassals to reduce their ability to contest
3) Project image of unassailability
4) Vassals all hate them and grow strong in their hate
5) Go back to 1

At some point the Hui bought into 3 themselves.

Tyrants become rulers when they have broken all opposition, and can shift from a paranoid, aggressive posture to a confident posture to start winning loyalties.
The Hui were never actually strong enough to do so.
 
it seems like they went out of their way to be the biggest assholes possible for no explicable reason.
The whole thing reads a lot to me like he's super insecure.
It does seem like this is about the Hui trying to define themselves as "what is truly important."

And... the Hui were all about perceptions over reality. They set out to convince everyone that they were important as a means of becoming important, and ultimately they convinced themselves that they'd succeeded.
 
It does seem like this is about the Hui trying to define themselves as "what is truly important."

And... the Hui were all about perceptions over reality. They set out to convince everyone that they were important as a means of becoming important, and ultimately they convinced themselves that they'd succeeded.
I suppose in cultivation world, that might actually have tangible effects on them. Hm.
 
Hm. Perhaps... The Hui believed in a false scarcity of importance, and came to the conclusion that naturally follows from said idea: that anyone else asserting their own importance was an attack. Their attitudes very much make sense in that light. As does their objectification of their subordinates; it would naturally follow in this mindset that depriving someone else of agency would increase one's own would it not?

It's all very zero-sum game take everything for yourself kind of thinking, which is depressingly a very realistic mindset.
 
Are they though? The faction we've dealt with, sure, but we've also seen some Bai go around and play bandit just because they aren't happy, which could have had dramatic diplomatic consequences. They also alienated all their vassals.

Though I agree they're not as idiotic about it.

So, Veekie said most that I'd want to say, but I'll note that like, yes, the Bai are cruel tyrants, but from everything we've seen of the Bai, that Cruelty is, I'd posit, both a deliberate tool and an Adaptation.

Bai Cruelty says "Don't screw with us, we'll make you suffer in agony for it". And, as shown, over the centuries that builds up a lot of resentment. BUT it's a paradigm people outside their family can work with. The "Bai Bandits" seem more like a not-unique-to-the-Bai problem to me.

Our glimpse into the Hui, however, paints a picture of a self centered paradigm where nothing is more important than the whims of the movers and shakers of the Hui. The casual disdain towards what should be reasonably considered a social obligation and nicety shows a positively mad level of self importance.
 
Hm. Perhaps... The Hui believed in a false scarcity of importance, and came to the conclusion that naturally follows from said idea: that anyone else asserting their own importance was an attack. Their attitudes very much make sense in that light. As does their objectification of their subordinates; it would naturally follow in this mindset that depriving someone else of agency would increase one's own would it not?

It's all very zero-sum game take everything for yourself kind of thinking, which is depressingly a very realistic mindset.
Perhaps this false scarcity of importance ties back to their Dream focus and propensity towards stories.
 
Are they though? The faction we've dealt with, sure, but we've also seen some Bai go around and play bandit just because they aren't happy, which could have had dramatic diplomatic consequences. They also alienated all their vassals.

Though I agree they're not as idiotic about it.
I mean, when we first met Meizhen's mini boss squad they did casual intimidation tactics just cuz that's what Bai do. When Meizhen lost here temper and went for a walk she would reduce reds to tears just by existing and I don't think most Bai would have given two shits. Also remember the story Meng Diu told about how the Bai.




The Bai aren't just merciless and vindictive, they cultivate cruelty. There's a reason Sun was able to convince a shit load of vassals to just up and abandon their lands and people and go run off to burn down a murder jungle and live there.
To expand on my point, we got a relatively unbiassed look at the Bai/Sun schism from Han Jian way back in Forge. The Bai are ruthless, proud, and sadistic; but their response to a vassal being attacked was 'Take a 100,000 men and slaughter the barbarians to your heart's content, just don't over-extend.'

The Hui's response to their entire province being attacked was literally nothing. Twice.

The Bai are the horrible people you can actually count on. The Hui are terrible people who might technically be responsible for less suffering, but are absolutely useless to an infuriating degree.
 
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Not so much a moral judgement but ultimately the Bai ruled through fear and when they alienated their vassals enough to revolt en masse under a charismatic rebel, they did so by Running Away. In the process him powered up enough that when their head came around for a fight it didn't go well is basically incidental to the rulership strategy itself. The Hui ruled though Underling Knife Pit so when THEY alienated their vassals enough to revolt en masse under a charismatic rebel the mere fact that they had revolted en masse had already negated the big tool the Hui had against rebellion (and frankly that they were even able to do so suggests it was never that great of a tool in the first place.)
 
To expand on my point, we got a relatively unbiassed look at the Bai/Sun schism from Han Jian way back in Forge. The Bai are ruthless, proud, and sadistic; but their response to a vassal being attacked was 'Take a 100,000 men and slaughter the barbarians to your heart's content, just don't over-extend.'

The Hui's response to their entire province being attacked was literally nothing. Twice.

The Bai are the horrible people you can actually count on. The Hui are terrible people who might technically be responsible for less suffering, but are absolutely useless to an infuriating degree.
100% this.

You can ask this question: "Why should we obey you?"
-Bai: Because I'm the baddest motherfucker around, and I will shatter all who challenge us, work for me and nobody else can fuck with you, and I have this list of limits on how I can't fuck with you.

In serving the Bai, you give up some rights to them for security against everyone else. Their flaw is that these rights were established back in the Bronze Age and utterly insufficient to modern needs.
They've been making it work by force, but in recent times they're rather lacking in force, and reforms must begin to be allowed.

-Xuan: Because you live on my Ancestor's back. He will provide for all your needs, whether food or safety.

In serving the Xuan you are pretty much either the landowner, the landowner's bro, or the guy living on his lawn. Its not equal and is unlikely to ever be, because the only path to status is to have a turtle bro.
Its kinda like communism except the state is a giant magic turtle that actually DOES make sure everyone has food and housing.

-Jin: Because I bring in riches from beyond. Just do your job, and you'll get your share of the loot.

The Jin are like Age of Sail colonial powers. Great prosperity at home, funded by the pillaging of weaker foreigners, powered by their founder inventing and monopolizing blue water exploration. This funds a lot of freedoms at home, as the lords can be generous with looted wealth.
Some day their dominance at sea will be challenged and then it will suck ass. But that is not this day.

-Mu: Because we are part of the machinery of state. Every part will do its part, from farmer to crown.

Less specific to the Mu and more to the Celestial Peaks proper, they're close to an arcology-state, everyone does their job and has freedoms within those rules.
Under those principles you have stability. Instability arises when important elements do not do their job(time period prior to Mu An) or has disputes about who should have what job(Strife of Twin Emperors).

-Zheng: You're free to do whatever, as long as you don't try to become the boss.

Great freedom, but life under the Zheng isn't stable. Sure, when a monster, pestilence or famine shows up, they'd come around to fix things eventually, but thats cold comfort to the victims before then.
The destroyed hometown hero backstory kinda sucks for said hometown.

-Sun: I protect you from the jungle, I protect you from the Bai. Think you're hard enough?

Western Territories/Red Garden as a first generation province is appropriately primitive in principle. Sun Shao rules because the alternative is destruction...and at the same time that also means he simply doesn't need to enforce his rule.

-Hui(circa the rebellion): Obey me, because I dictate reality around here.

The neat part is they don't.
But enough of the Hui think they do.
Reality keeps intruding on the dream like a persistent alarm clock that just keeps getting knocked under the bed.
They offer no protection, no services, no common identity.
They're bluffing with an empty hand.
 
Well, not quite empty. Xiangmen housed Horrors that the Hui could unleash against those who try and break their dream/delusion. And they had enough skill with the Dream to make their clams seem just the slightiest bit reasonable if you (are forced to) squint.

Also the Hui were annoyingly profficient with the usage of their special skill Demonize/Dehumanize/Destabilize Polity.
 
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Well, not quite empty. Xiangmen housed Horrors that the Hui could unleash against those who try and break their dream/delusion. And they had enough skill with the Dream to make their clams seem just the slightiest bit reasonable if you (are forced to) squint.

Also the Hui were annoyingly profficient with the usage of their special skill Demonize/Dehumanize/Destabilize Polity.
Empty as in they offered nothing whatsoever to the governed. Purely extractive
 
Maybe Hui just didnt have any power to defend the Emerald Seas by themselfs. And when the barbarians attack they would have to show, how small their hand is, to help any meaningfully, or help a little and they would lose a face. So insted acting like they dont help, because they choose to, and not because they couldnt, seems like the better strategy decision. Maybe they even in reallity helped with quite a lot of their power, but choose to keep in in secret so nobody would know how weak they are.
Their power seems to lie in sleazy politics, so all they do is that. Even if its their wife, they will play power games with/against her, because its who they are and cant realy act in any other way. The same way the Dutches cant stop herself, they couldnt too. The same way Bay are cruel snakes, Hui are sleazy politicians.
 
-Hui(circa the rebellion): Obey me, because I dictate reality around here.
I feel it would be more gaslighty, with the statement being more in line with "I revealed your enemies' plots for you" because of what we saw during Shenhua's coup, the reaction of the Hui to wide-scale unrest is to attempt to intrigue their way out of it, turning allies against each other by claiming to each side that the other has been working for them the entire time.

It benefited the Hui to have weak vassals competing for their regard as it let them turn small rivalries into major plots and prevent any kind of lasting unity between any of the count clans. The problem is that they clearly didn't have the other half of the equation, a strong centralized government and army with which to combat outside forces, because as someone that plays CK2, I also prefer weak vassals that are constantly infighting between each other and unable to challenge my reign, but I also typically have a large developed demense and retinues with which to actually fight wars.
 
[X] Xiangmen, City of Wonders. Vast production, treasures beyond counting, the engine of riches which had kept even a corpse alive long after all vitality was gone.
 
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