Option 3 means we are reversing the trap, bieng aware and prepared for the ambush. With option 2 we simply put all cards on the table to try and intimidate them, something we are bad at doing. It gives up our advantage as they know we are prepared, while with option 3 we can actually suprise them with a counter trap. And this is something we are quite good at doing. And our domain makes us almost invincible to illusions and impairment, which by itself should counter most of their traps
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Earth
[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
Again, they be spiders. I really, strongly doubt they can convinced to stand down their ambush because we act non-threateningly. Not-threatening things look more like food. Option 3 gives them zero reason to hesitate in jumping us for our delicious manmeats.
Also again, this isn't a moral judgement of them. It's perfectly within their rights to use false dealings to try to eat us. If we want them to not exercise this right, we need to actually step in to intervene because their default behaviour is going to be trying to ambush and devour unready intruders.
Edit: if people don't care about trying to avoid a fight, by all means go with option 3. It gets info by default, and likely gives us an edge once the fight starts. It's a perfectly reasonable choice. Also stylish.
It's just not a diplomatic choice or likely to avoid hostilities. If anyone is interested in avoiding hostilities, they should go with option 2 since it's the option which actually tries to do that. There is no way option 2 is less likely than option 3 to halt hostilities. With the way the options and narrative is laid out, I don't think this is even subjective. It's objectively true option 2 is more likely to prevent a fight than option 3 is. Any other opinion is wrong, full stop.
A compatible opinion is that both have low chances of ending without hostilities, so we should hedge our bets with 3 for the information and getting the drop on the enemy. That's a fine rationale. There's plenty of arguments to go for either option that don't rely on claiming all the explicit merits of one option for another. That's just silliness.
Also again, this isn't a moral judgement of them. It's perfectly within their rights to use false dealings to try to eat us. If we want them to not exercise this right, we need to actually step in to intervene because their default behaviour is going to be trying to ambush and devour unready intruders.
Edit: if people don't care about trying to avoid a fight, by all means go with option 3. It gets info by default, and likely gives us an edge once the fight starts. It's a perfectly reasonable choice. Also stylish.
It's just not a diplomatic choice or likely to avoid hostilities. If anyone is interested in avoiding hostilities, they should go with option 2 since it's the option which actually tries to do that. There is no way option 2 is less likely than option 3 to halt hostilities. With the way the options and narrative is laid out, I don't think this is even subjective. It's objectively true option 2 is more likely to prevent a fight than option 3 is. Any other opinion is wrong, full stop.
A compatible opinion is that both have low chances of ending without hostilities, so we should hedge our bets with 3 for the information and getting the drop on the enemy. That's a fine rationale. There's plenty of arguments to go for either option that don't rely on claiming all the explicit merits of one option for another. That's just silliness.
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- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I do not know where the idea that Ling Qi is bad at intimation comes from. Is there a source people are pulling that from?
If the trap was already set I would agree with you on the second point. But the trap isn't finished. I don't see any reason why we should let them have more advantages than they have now for a fight. Forcing the issue to a head either causes them to fold or a fight to break out when they are not ready. Contrast that to our readiness, the same in both options, and I don't see a reason to wait for a fight to break out. Sure we surprise them, but what is that surprise worth? Not much in this situation I'd say.
Huh? Where are you getting the idea that Ling Qi can't do intimidating?
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We're the sincere negotiator. Honestly, Ling Qi should be really good at intimidating, because you can tell she really doesn't want to crush you beneath her heel and take all your stuff, but that she sees it as the inevitable conclusion if things fail. She should be great at communicating that she isn't bluffing at all and totally believes you're utterly doomed unless you work out a deal with her.
- Location
- Lost!
...you know what, I'm convinced.
[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
Let's get information, a combat edge, and be stylish!
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Insert Tally
if that's what floats your boat, than all power to ya. I'm just annoyed at the spurious arguments floating around.
I will admit I don't really see how, with the tools she actually has, Ling Qi can meaningfully set up a counterattack to their ambush, especially subtly. But I'm going the vote option, and Yrsillar, the benefit of the doubt. It seems to suggest gaining a combat advantage, so I won't doubt that in my vote calculus. Just gonna doubt that here, now, with my words of doubting doubtiness. I mean really, our spirits probably won't start on the field to ready themselves considering we're pretending not to know what's up, the terrain has already been noted to be bad for liminal hopping so sudden surprise positionings are probably out, and it's not like we have any moves we can charge up on the down-low. About the only thing we could be doing is observing their positions for a little longer, but other posters aren't exactly wrong when they point out/worry about the enemies having longer to take more advantageous positions.
It's clearly implied Ling Qi's side will benefit from setting up a counterattack, I just don't personally see that she has the capabilities to do so effectively.
First, an,ambush loses it's value when the victim is prepared. That fact gives him an edge, as he surprises the ambushes with, well, not being ambushed, which disrupts their plan
This is first of all a matter of general tactics(which I explain terribly) and not arts or cultivation. And We do have some things to set up
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- Location
- Florida
We do have 3 immediate art's that'd be handy in this situation.
Black Mirror to stonewall the trap, Eagle God's Defiance for an immediate counter attack followed by the horde, and West Wind Step in case thing's get too dicey, not in that particular order of course.
And we have Lenney that can probably one shot some of these spooders.
Black Mirror to stonewall the trap, Eagle God's Defiance for an immediate counter attack followed by the horde, and West Wind Step in case thing's get too dicey, not in that particular order of course.
And we have Lenney that can probably one shot some of these spooders.
We aren't likely to get information useful to us, the combat edge will be minimal, and given that there's a high chance Xia Lin will blow it, it's going to not be very stylish, especially since we don't need this fight to begin with.
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We're prepared in all vote options. I'm talking about the comparative advantage which appears to be suggested in option 3. We do have pre-fight prep that we can do. But we can't do it while pretending like we don't know about their ambush, which option 3 relies on. Ling Qi has 0 subtle team buffing, whatsoever. She can't use her active Domain subtly. She can't buff her attacks subtly. Her spirits can't buff themselves in her dantian and can't buff themselves subtly outside her dantian. Ling Qi doesn't have subtle instruments in her arsenal, by and large.
That's mainly what's confusing me. The plan says to "Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush." but that's not something Ling Qi has stuff for. Like, at all. Virtually the only thing I can think of is identifying the spider controlling the threads connected to the room via the corpse spider, and having Xia Lin cripple its control functions in an opening strike.
These are all useful tools, yeah. But my point is none of them are particular to vote option 3. They perform in 2, if hostilities break out, basically exactly the same way as they do in 3. There's no "subtle preparation" involved. It's weird.
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we have great immunities against possible traps
"
Given that even sixiang had great difficulty getting through Xia Lin's social screen, I don't think she will blow it
And the combat advantage is far from minimal. This is an important principle of tactics
"
- Immunity to Effects which induce Immobility or Helplessness(Bypassed by effects of Rank U or higher).
- Immunity to effects which reduce speed, initiative or avoid(Bypassed by effects of Rank B or higher, adjusted for potency).
- Immunity to Compulsion or Illusion effects which would cause action against allies of Bond 2 or higher (Bypassed by effects of rank S or higher, adjusted for potency)."
Given that even sixiang had great difficulty getting through Xia Lin's social screen, I don't think she will blow it
And the combat advantage is far from minimal. This is an important principle of tactics
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And those play out exactly the same in option 2 as they do in 3.
But we don't need to fear them setting the trap. And option 3 gives us the advantage, while option 2 gives up our suprise
Sure, but that's no reason to let them continue.
We don't need to fight these spiders at all. We gain literally nothing from this fight. There's no treasure, no useful information, no cultivation prizes, and no social approval. This whole battle is absolutely pointless, and if the spiders are the only ones who know how deactivate the maze formation, we will have blown our actual mission by killing them. That is on top of the possibility that we are injured or poisoned or whatever in the coming fight. We have an option that lets us at least TRY to get out of this fight. And if it fails, we aren't surrendering very much initiative. It isn't like the spiders, who are currently planning on ambushing us, would be super surprised by us attacking them, since they are planning on fighting us already.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
...
So, basically.
Your perspective is that we shouldn't even try to get them to turn it down, except through naked threat of force, correct? Because they're too dumb to be tricked, smart enough to recognize the threat implicit with being an agent of the Cai, and once they commit to moving, they will fight to the death and not even try to make peace? But if threatened hard enough out the gate they'll give us whatever we want?
If your perspective is that they will automatically attack unless intimidated first and will fight to the death once committed... Uh...
Like I said, it is really weird that you think approaching an ambush predator and screaming "I KNOW YOU'RE OUT THERE COME OUT AND FACE ME" is going to have it... Cower before you and offer you whatever you want at your whim.
This fiction of "Option two is the only peaceable approach" is straight up ridiculous. Because it completely assumes that these are both inhuman (In which case we must assume they will automatically attack if they have advantage), but also react to threat displays like humans might (By begging for their lives and safety)
Which is it? Are they beasts who will ravenously attack because meat and intrusion on their territory? Are they people who can be convinced not to attack? You can't have it both ways when we have no contact with these things and no idea how they actually think.
Because guess what? Spirits don't think like humans is a constant running theme, and the ones that don't regularly interact with humans can't even convincingly fake it like the ones that do socialize with humans can.
Christ, this vote is ridiculous. The ridiculous fiction of "Actually option three is the most hostile approach" is a hell of take based on literally a handful of demagogues imagining it up and then pushing that narrative without pause.
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[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
No need to do the imperialist thing out here in the wilds.
No need to do the imperialist thing out here in the wilds.
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- Location
- United Kingdom
Part of me is wondering whether or not them setting an ambush is just a matter of insurance. Like, it's been called out that the Hui were often their own worst enemy, so maybe it's standard practice to prepare a potential counter when meeting others?
Though looking at it now that feels like a stretch.
Though looking at it now that feels like a stretch.
[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
I'm indecisive and now so is the thread.
I'm indecisive and now so is the thread.
Everyone except the Hui: "Hui were the worst."
The Hui: "The other Hui were the worst"
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I think you are reading way too much into some of the more extreme sides of the argument for option two.
Option three is clearly the best for gathering information. If that is a priority than option three is clearly superior.
Option one avoids the situation. I hate it because nothing happens.
What are the strengths of option two. Option two likely starts the fight right away when two green level beasts are away. A six on four fight for the first crucial moments is likely all we need to just steamroll them.
Each option has a chance of things resolving peacefully. That chance is worth talking about, but I think it's warped the argument away from the core of each vote. Option one is avoidance, option two is aggression, option three is information gathering.
Why don't I think a peaceful resolution is likely? Because the spiders hid themselves away. They covered the entrance to their home in an illusion. If they didn't care about being found why would they hide like that? The spiders know there are two of us. Why would they give up their hidden home just because two people found it? The only way more people find it is if we leave.
By calling on Cai authority we tell them that their nest is going to be discovered, whether they kill us or not, and that their chances of killing us are poor. We tell them that they can either bet on killing us and escaping the expedition, possibly leading to their death and definitely leading to the destruction of the nest, or they can bet that we have more to gain by letting them live and trade their knowledge. We have no reason for engaging them in the first place except for preferring their aid or if we're bluffing. So either option we try to convince them, of our power(2) or our ignorance(3), but the win condition of option 2 is the spiders giving us information as if their lives depend on it versus option 3 in which they get tricked out of a piece of information they might otherwise not reveal.