[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
These spiders used to work for the Hui, and are known for being duplicitous, while we are servants of the Cai, their sworn enemy. I really see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt when we can just get this over with by catching them off balance before their preparations are ready. We have Xia Lin with us after all, and I doubt she's prepared for this whole intrigue thing, and that the spiders will take kindly to her presence.
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LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
You don't extend trust to a known enemy that's preparing to jump you in the dark. If these spiders had intentions of being friendly with the Cai, they would have renewed their contracts instead of hiding in a broken down Hui fortress.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Do we know they're an enemy? "They haven't left their home to submit to a lord thousands of miles away" is a pretty weaksauce reason to say they must be enemies in my opinion.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
We know the Hui spiders went three routes after the Cai took the Hui's place. Some submitted to the Cai, others refused and got exterminated, while others fled.
These spiders are of the 3rd category. Refusal to submit to your would-be conquerors by fleeing is a act of rebellion, and signals that you really do not like your new overlords and don't want to talk to them in good faith. So yeah, we do know they're our enemies.
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This!
Also there's no textual evidence to imply that this is anything other than a typical ambush. Most people who set up ambushes intend to use them. The wording of the option, as well as the text and what Yrs has said since then, implies that if we walk in there and play along they'll spring their trap. Its possible that they won't, for some reason that hasn't been foreshadowed at all. Its not likely though. I base my decisions off of what I see in the text as evidence (as well as the way voting options are worded and WOG) and none of that supports the notion that the spiders will for some reason not spring their trap.
If this was an interaction where Ling Qi's judgements tend to be skewed, like when a guy is interested in/courting her, then I would doubt her POV a bit. However, her judgement and track record in interacting with spirits has been solid. There's no reason to think that she's suddenly misinterpreting things here.
You're right that their having not submitted to Cai in the past is not really a reason to consider them an enemy. but you know what is a good reason? Them planning to attack us when we only said we wanted to speak with them. They don't really have a way of knowing who we are, they're just jumping straight to violence.
I think it's important to examine the fundamental nature of these creatures. That is, they're spiders. They're spiders in their den, currently in the process of leveraging misdirection and obfuscation for an ambush. They're predators, obligate carnivores, and trap masters. This is... what they do.
Spiders setting a trap should just be assumed to be intending to use that trap to kill whatever stumbles into it. They're spiders, that's just going to be their first inclination. This isn't condemnation of them or anything, it's actually not really unreasonable of them to act this way towards potential peer threats or potential meals. We've murdered Green beasts for mats, even sport! Yeah, we're talking to these spiders, but there's no reason they should care about that. And we probably taste great.
tl;dr: spiders!
Spiders setting a trap should just be assumed to be intending to use that trap to kill whatever stumbles into it. They're spiders, that's just going to be their first inclination. This isn't condemnation of them or anything, it's actually not really unreasonable of them to act this way towards potential peer threats or potential meals. We've murdered Green beasts for mats, even sport! Yeah, we're talking to these spiders, but there's no reason they should care about that. And we probably taste great.
tl;dr: spiders!
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
"They fled from people who wanted to conquer them! They must be evil!"
Are you listening to yourself?
That's a pretty enormous leap. Regardless, we don't have to get them to submit to the new regime, just let us through. While them swearing fealty and all would be nice, we don't have a life or death grudge with these particular creatures.
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Actually I wouldn't say that. Maybe they felt that they wouldn't get a fair chance because they'd be too much associated with the Hui. Maybe they fled b/c they were scared for their lives. While I agree with you on the other stuff, using politics from two to three centuries ago to immediately label them as an enemy now...is very much hurting our argument for option 2. Frankly their preparing to attack us when they've been given no reason to ATM. Thats reason enough right there. Lets leave it at that.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
I never accused them of being evil? Or that the Cai are good?
I said they're our enemies. Like it or not, we now represent the Cai. The people who ran from the Cai won't like it when the Cai are on their doorstep and will want to kill us before we reveal their location to our glorious overlord. These people are probably gonna be a bit paranoid, and prone to rash action.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I would rather give the benefit of the doubt and extend trust, than take any excuse to do violence.
They are setting up a trap. Iterated Prisoners dillemmas also require punishing people for behaviour like that.
Anyway Option 2 is the diplomatic option, while option 3 is the ignore diplomacy, just try to get information out of them option.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
If they set up a trap, then us telling Zhengui to be ready to collapse the place is us setting up a trap. My read is that 2 is gunboat diplo, and 3 is actual diplo.
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I thought it was pretty obvious that option 3 was going to have an ambush happen against us it's just that Ling Qi thinks she can play ignorant of it to get some info while stealthy preparing for a counter ambush. This obviously has the issue if you feel that the ambush can majorly hurt us but given our domain I and many others think that we can handle whatever ambush is going to happen just hopefully with some more info than we would otherwise get.
Like I think people tunnel visioned real hard on the which option starts a fight thing cause it's pretty likely that no matter the option we're going to have some type of combat. So focus on the type of combat you want a fight off the enemy's homeground/retreating for bigger gun, a fight on the enemy homeground while we're prepared confident we can beat them, or letting them get an ambush in exchange for info and a counter-ambush. There's no need to get so hung up about diploing some random and probably hostile spiders.
Like I think people tunnel visioned real hard on the which option starts a fight thing cause it's pretty likely that no matter the option we're going to have some type of combat. So focus on the type of combat you want a fight off the enemy's homeground/retreating for bigger gun, a fight on the enemy homeground while we're prepared confident we can beat them, or letting them get an ambush in exchange for info and a counter-ambush. There's no need to get so hung up about diploing some random and probably hostile spiders.
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How is going in, letting a trap and the ensuing violence happen, while only pretending to be diplomatic actually the diplomatic option? Like, we wouldn't be going in there with the sincere intent of negotiating in option 3, we're just using the chance to milk them for as much info as possible b4 the fight starts.
Option 2 may be gunboat diplomacy but its actually the only attempt to prevent violence from taking place that we have. Where option 3 just accepts that they're going to be hostile.
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Alright I already explained why its extremely unlikely that they would try to spring the trap if given the chance in an earlier post. I pointed out how there's no proof or indication that they would choose not to ambush and every indication that they do intend to ambush us. Not gonna repeat it.
But FYI option 2 doesn't really give them the chance to catch us by surprise in an ambush b/c they're going to see we're already on guard. Also we're not going to announce to them that we're planning to kill them. We're saying in order to get out of this, all they have to do is cooperate. They might react with violence anyways but option 3 is even more likely to lead to violence than that.
