Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The idea that Option three is just 'Cedes the entire initiative to them' just... Doesn't ring true to me? We are incredibly well suited to neutralize a sudden ambush between our new talisman, our good social skills, and our Domain Effects being excellent at just "Lol nope" any binds or other such traps a spider based ambush predator might employ.
These assets aren't applicable in the way you're suggesting they are. First, we've already identified the planned ambush and will be on alert, so our new talisman's marginal benefit is greatly reduced. This isn't a knock on the artifact, it's just plainly true that it's more valuable in situations where we haven't already identified what the enemy is up to. Second, we do have good social skills, but option 3 does not attempt to defuse the situation, so our social skills are entirely irrelevant to whether violence occurs. Our social skills are directed towards probing for information in the vote, nothing more and nothing less.

Lastly, sure, we have particular abilities which makes us resistant to a lot of spider-style stuff. We're also not alone, though. Our capabilities do not fully extend to our allies, and our dispel coverage of allies is moderate at best. Preempting the enemy's preparations is clearly the more effective means of denying them... those preparations.

Note, I'm not weighing the tactical values of our counter-preparations versus cutting their prep short, just commenting on how we're not somehow uniquely more advantaged, or even not disadvantaged, by allowing them to attempt a more mature ambush.
 
I'm very curious as to where the idea that Ling Qi can't be intimidating is coming from here, tbh.
Oh, I think she can be scary as fuck if she wants to be.

Using that fear to get specific reactions out of the people you're scaring is a step past that, though. And the entire point here is to get the spiders to act in certain ways when Ling Qi isn't immediately in front of them being terrifying. We don't want these spiders harassing our baggage train; as well spec'd as Ling Qi is at fighting them, many of the people we're leading aren't.
 
If they are planning an ambush in anticipation of us acting in bad faith, then opening the passageway to let us talk to them is counter-intuitive. Not engaging with us is the safest way to protect themselves from our theoretical bad faith, and if we do push the issue it would give them slightly more time to arrange an ambush like they are doing now.
I think you're projecting the same mistake people are making in our discussion (that originated from Ling Qi) onto the possible train of thought carried out by the spiders - namely, assuming that bad faith on the part of the other party is inevitable. While not engaging is indeed the safest way to protect from bad faith actors, it also precludes interacting with good faith actors.

The spiders haven't been given any in-text reason to believe that Ling Qi will refuse to act in good faith, nor any reason to believe that Ling Qi will refuse to act in bad faith - the reasonable/nuanced approach from a good faith party is therefore to prepare for both/either. Unfortunately, we can't determine whether such preparation is being undertaken in good faith (just being prepared for possible bad faith from someone else or just not being able to come to a diplomatic resolution) or bad faith (prepping for further bad faith on the spiders' part), only that preparation is occurring.

As such, in my opinion Ling Qi has only weak evidence of the spiders acting in bad faith.
 
Last edited:
Really the thing I don't like Option 3 is how insincere it is. Yes they betrayed us first so its not really all that bad, but compared to Options 1 and 2 which try and essentially Sincerely Negotiate via calling the spiders bluff, its much less Ling Qi and actually not very diplomatic. I like Option 2 (and option 1 but that has no chance of winning) because I like this about her.

Option 3 cedes initiative to the Spiders, while Option 2 doesn't. Option 2 is a very sincere way of getting the whole situation sorted out and any honest diplomacy has to deal with the fact they were going to betray us. Option 2 imo has a much higher chance of getting good info out of the spiders if we actually try and talk with them. With Option 3, we can't really trust all that much that comes out of their mouth since you dont really tell the truth to people you are trying to betray.
 
Going to shamelessly steal something Abeo said on Discord, but Ling Qi's style of negotiating is very straightforward and sincere, and in a situation where the other side is trying to play silly buggers, it's very in-style for her to just lay her cards on the table:

"Here's what we've got. It's in your best interests not to mess with us."

Presenting the options in such a way that leaves them either:

a) a risky, and very dangerous option in choosing to fight, and probably die or suffer catastrophic losses.

or,

b) a way out, in cutting out the bullshit and talking


In most situations, where personal stakes and emotions are not involved, people will choose to take the path of least resistance. For a predator, knowing what fights you can pick and what fights you can't is literally a matter of life or death. Speaking in terms of strength is a language they will understand, and taking an uncertain fight when there's another option that leaves them unscathed is absolutely not in their interests.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
I guess I'll actually vote.

[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.

Really the thing I don't like Option 3 is how insincere it is. Yes they betrayed us first so its not really all that bad, but compared to Options 1 and 2 which try and essentially Sincerely Negotiate via calling the spiders bluff, its much less Ling Qi and actually not very diplomatic. I like Option 2 (and option 1 but that has no chance of winning) because I like this about her.

Option 3 cedes initiative to the Spiders, while Option 2 doesn't. Option 2 is a very sincere way of getting the whole situation sorted out and any honest diplomacy has to deal with the fact they were going to betray us. Option 2 imo has a much higher chance of getting good info out of the spiders if we actually try and talk with them. With Option 3, we can't really trust all that much that comes out of their mouth since you dont really tell the truth to people you are trying to betray.
In fairness, Sincere Negotiator, our advanced Speech skill, allows for the kind of detail omission and information control in option 3. The core insight the evolution was built around was basically the recognition that sincerity and good faith don't require letting go of secrets and advantage.

The issue, as I see it, with treating option 3 as a social engagement, from Ling Qi's perspective, isn't concealing her knowledge of their ambush from the spiders, it's more what she intends to do with it. Counter-murder isn't really a social end, so I wouldn't view her deception as being a social means. Not in Ling Qi's head, anyway.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
Oh, I think she can be scary as fuck if she wants to be.

Using that fear to get specific reactions out of the people you're scaring is a step past that, though. And the entire point here is to get the spiders to act in certain ways when Ling Qi isn't immediately in front of them being terrifying. We don't want these spiders harassing our baggage train; as well spec'd as Ling Qi is at fighting them, many of the people we're leading aren't.
If Ling Qi, alone, is capable of forcing an issue if she enters this negotiation with clear and open strength of her position than the current situation once explained will be pretty clear to them that it is not an "Obey or else I'll make you." threat. Ling Qi would be going in with Cai Authority backing us up, this is "Cooperate and be rewarded or risk both present and future threats." The fact that we would be going in with our Cai Authority present puts the fact that, "This problem doesn't go away after we leave." in the open. If they are concerned about being hurt or attacked than it would be obscene amounts of foolishness to attempt to strike an armed and guarded baggage train that also has the people who scared you into submission protecting it and more of them. This social encounter is going to end here and now one way or the other because our position only gets stronger whereas theirs only gets weaker after we leave this bunker.

a) a risky, and very dangerous option in choosing to fight, and probably die or suffer catastrophic losses.
We do not need to fear monger on this we almost certainly can win this fight either way, but I want to try for actual cooperation with the Spiders by coming off as both someone who can be negotiated with but also too big to chew rather than trick them into revealing a secret and potentially needing to wipe them out because they think they can kill us.

Option three doesn't commit to backstabbing them, just poking them in good faith while lining things up for a counter-ambush if things get shady. Option 2 makes a big threat display but that doesn't actually work if the other side thinks they can take us, but it does make sure that any valuables they might have here will be hidden or destroyed if they are hostile.

The idea that Option three is just 'Cedes the entire initiative to them' just... Doesn't ring true to me? We are incredibly well suited to neutralize a sudden ambush between our new talisman, our good social skills, and our Domain Effects being excellent at just "Lol nope" any binds or other such traps a spider based ambush predator might employ.

Like, it's not like they're just going to immediately throw a big buffchain out on option three and us do nothing in kind, or rather, that's a risk in either approach because if they're already planning to fuck us, the last thing they want to do is not be ready for us. Whether we come on strong or not.

And Ling Qi is not well suited for a big intimidation play either. It doesn't fall in any of her skillsets at all--so it comes off to me as the option most likely to provoke a fight unless they're complete cravens.

Because who cares if we're theoretically working on behalf of someone very far away, we're lunch now.
Option three is an attempt at using what should theoretically be an opening discussion leading into a negotiation as a form of probative questioning while not broadcasting Ling Qi's actual level of preparedness or ability to fight making her appear less threatening than she actually is. This actually would make the spiders more likely to believe they can take her should they realize she has taken valuable information from them. Option Two by comparison makes it clear that Ling Qi is both an actual threat now and a threat later if not mollified and worked with because she is both present in the now and the Cai are everywhere later and if she vanishes there is nothing these spiders can do to hide or survive what would fall onto their heads.

Neither option cedes Combat initiative. simply knowing about the ambush prevents us from being taken by surprise in any option. Ling Qi has the capacity in either option to win whatever fight comes that is something both sides of this vote should be agreed on. However Option Three does cede the Social initiative and leaves the Spiders as the ones feeling like they are in control of the situation and so the conversation is a matter of working to get the person who feels they have the better poker hand to keep making bets until their opponent can take them for all they are worth. Option Two however makes it clear Ling Qi is at least an equal in the here and now, and that attempting to act in Bad Faith has far more costs associated with it than the Spiders likely realized.

With Option Three Ling Qi has the potential to obtain some kernel of some big information but at the cost that she accepting that the spiders might not survive the meeting or that talks will break down once the spiders realize she is fishing for information. Option Two allows the chance to get something more long-term in the form of actual, if not enthusiastic, cooperation out of the Spiders while accepting that if they clam up immediately than this becomes a fight on her terms immediately.

Also, as far as valuables which was not a reason that I voted for coming here at all? The spiders have already invited Ling Qi inside which means they have already given any orders that relate to moving anything valuable or dangerous into better positions the moment she choose to let them know that Xia Lin and her were here, as Xia Lin commented when Ling Qi choose to forgo further stealth options.

With that invitation though, they are pushing the social initiative back to Ling Qi to come back with a stronger counter to their perceived secret action, and that means that they have accepted that their buffchain is as good as it will get. They can't really respond without it coming off as further posturing from someone uncomfortable or unsure of the actual strength of their position.

Option Two opens strong, pushes Ling Qi as at least an equal in strength and not something that they will want to attempt to see how badly they'll be injured taking it down and once talks begin it will be clear that yeah she works for someone very far away but there is a small army marching along just up the road that will come looking for her if she goes missing.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.

I've been convinced.
 
[X] Pretend that you have not noticed their duplicity and play polite for as long as possible to draw out information. Subtly set yourself up to counterattack their ambush.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
Meh, we can take them.

More seriously, 3rd option is looting their info and treasures, while 2nd tries to make spiders into asset in the future. And, well, "Exchange of goods produces more value than theft."
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Elsecaller on Nov 19, 2020 at 3:09 PM, finished with 256 posts and 134 votes.


Closer than I thought it would be.
 
I'd like to remind everyone that option 3 concedes that there WILL be a fight and makes it basically inevitable. Only with option 2 do we actually attempt to head off the spider's plan to attack us. We have NO REASON to fight with these spiders right now. They live in an abandoned, decrepit ruin with no apparent treasures. Furthermore, Xia Lin is not as far as we can tell an acting type. I consider it very likely that if we take option 3 that the spiders will immediately see from her behavior that something is off and become suspicious and maybe just attack immediately before we're ready.
 
I'd like to remind everyone that option 3 concedes that there WILL be a fight and makes it basically inevitable. Only with option 2 do we actually attempt to head off the spider's plan to attack us. We have NO REASON to fight with these spiders right now. They live in an abandoned, decrepit ruin with no apparent treasures. Furthermore, Xia Lin is not as far as we can tell an acting type. I consider it very likely that if we take option 3 that the spiders will immediately see from her behavior that something is off and become suspicious and maybe just attack immediately before we're ready.

That is only IF Ling Qi's read of them being aggressive rather than fearful is correct If not, its actually the other way around.

And it may be slightly meta of me, but I'd rather say "spare the fearful but fuck the aggressive" than "fuck the fearful and spare the aggressive"
 
I'd like to remind everyone that option 3 concedes that there WILL be a fight and makes it basically inevitable. Only with option 2 do we actually attempt to head off the spider's plan to attack us. We have NO REASON to fight with these spiders right now. They live in an abandoned, decrepit ruin with no apparent treasures. Furthermore, Xia Lin is not as far as we can tell an acting type. I consider it very likely that if we take option 3 that the spiders will immediately see from her behavior that something is off and become suspicious and maybe just attack immediately before we're ready.
As mentioned by others, Option 3 anticipates a fight not concedes the inevitability of such a combat and so takes no direct steps to avoid a fight occurring while Option 2 attempts to preempt any combat through presentation of a strong front and placing some of our stronger cards on the table to see if that will force the spiders to the bargaining table rather than trying their luck with an ambush that is already blown.
 
Honestly, I think the most contentious and most fun choices in quests tend to be the ones where people have to, first of all, debate what each option means based on their knowledge of the quest.

So I really really like this choice.
 
Last edited:
I can see the merits to going all in with Cai authority, where the line in the sand is drawn with the stick readily visible... but Gunboat Diplomacy doesn't really seem to fit Ling Qi.

Seems more the type of thing Xia Lin would have done if she was in charge, and not the type of action a budding spymaster to be would go with.
 
I can see the merits to going all in with Cai authority, where the line in the sand is drawn with the stick readily visible... but Gunboat Diplomacy doesn't really seem to fit Ling Qi.

Seems more the type of thing Xia Lin would have done if she was in charge, and not the type of action a budding spymaster to be would go with.

Its basically what she went with when talking to the fungus. Being very blunt about the potential consequences of various choices actually makes a lot of sense for a spirit diplomat. Spirit beasts and spirits tend to have very different perspectives from humans so being extremely clear helps keep things from being lost in translation.

Humans are less fond of it, though.
 
[X] Enter and engage, but be prepared. Use the trappings of Cai authority and your own power to intimidate them into backing down. If they attack anyway, this is a grouping you can handle.
 
Back
Top