- Location
- Ukraine
- Pronouns
- She/They
1. Ling Qi as a trickster.I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
As an individual who advocated for archery in the past thread, I have come to agree that archery doesn't really have a relevant place in the build that the thread is constructing and the roles that Ling Qi will engage in for combat and social maneuvering.
First off, I would be careful in categorizing Ling Qi as a trickster simply because of her connection to the Grinning Moon because I think that Ling Qi doesn't typically adhere to that facet of the Grinning Moon. For the Grinning Moon is more than simply a trickster, it is also about freedom of movement, of not being restricted by such petty things as guards or security, but also of enjoying the moment, of having fun in the action. Those, I think, are more relevant to Ling Qi path forward as a cultivator than the facet of the Grinning Moon reserved for trickery. Even her domain creates the distinction with little to nothing involving the tricking of an enemy but having significant capability in not being stopped or restricted.
Next, Ling Qi can already act from distance with anonymity. Her Roaming Moon Eye allows for remote scrying and spying of various locations and factions, and such capabilities seem to be increasing in said art as we develop it further. Such capability of information gathering is useful when conducting information-gathering missions such as our foray into the Corrupted Caverns or, although we haven't yet done it, information gathering excursions against the Cloud Nomads. But, I think, your position is more that the ability to project force and essentially scare an enemy remotely and anonymously has value to Ling Qi. If that is your position, then I would have to disagree. We have seen that Ling Qi is more than capable of ambushing Cloud Nomad groups through stealth and AoE arts, essentially tearing apart groups of nomads quickly and without warning. Her speed allows her to interact with multiple groups of raiders in a substantial tract of land, her stealth allows her to intercept Cloud Nomad groups without warning, and her AoE capabilities allow her to churn through the chaff of such groups quickly and with relative ease. In light of such capabilities, projecting force from range seems largely redundant when she can ambush groups and wipe them out before moving on to the next group. This is further compounded that such a projection of force is likely to do little to the Cloud Nomads who themselves engage in long-range high mobility warfare. They will have the means to prevent any damage from such warning shots unless we invest heavily in archery. And investing so heavily into archery defies the purpose of lightly investing for utility purposes.
As for the direction of our build? It seems to be moving much more solidly into the realm of battlefield control rather than support, especially when we are working with individuals we care little for individually. BKSD and UGM both provide powerful means of repositioning our opponent to deny them attacks or place them in worse positions, and our domain itself can cause problems for individuals trying to escape, compounded by BKSD and UGM movement controlling abilities. In light of our AoE capabilities and Battlefield control aspects, our support options are relatively anemic, our domain notwithstanding. As such, I would say that in general, we are much more powerful as a battlefield control operative than as a support character. This further compounds when one considers our place in the army. As a stealthy high-mobility asset, we are perfect for infiltration and extraction missions for information gathering when operating solo. Our battlefield control abilities enhance our ability to work together with a team which makes us a stealthy difficult to pin down disruption asset for a team fight. I just don't see how adding archery in any meaningful way enhances what we can already do.
I think archery is a fun hobby for Ling Qi to use in social situations, where her role has not been as clearly defined, but in terms of serious competitions and battlefield maneuvers, she just doesn't seem to need archery to do what she wants to do or stop others from doing what they want to do.
As a side note regarding Cai's build, I think that it is actually a bit of understated genius for Yrs to make a mega-bureaucrat into a powerful dispeller. Bureaucrats' most powerful moment is when they tell others "No," and outside of that, they have little power. But the ability to stop others from doing what they want to do makes bureaucrats frustrating to deal with, and potentially dangerous, especially in a world of cultivation with arts and techniques. And, I think, that the massive damage that Cai can do is actually a logical bridge that a mega dispeller could deal a lot of uninterrupted damage because the opponent has no means of stopping said damage.
But that is my two cents, that as Ling Qi's build becomes more pronounced, her need and desire for archery to be a useful utility aspect decreases because of our own increasing abilities in stealth, mobility, AoE's, and Battlefield control. Furthermore, as we advance up the ranks of cultivation, the investment needed in archery becomes prohibitively costly for any minor utility it could bring and such investment is better spent on improving our own core capabilities, or protecting our core capabilities (such as dispell protection). As such, I think that the turning point for Ling Qi to be an archer, even only tangentially, has passed, and going back to archery now will be too costly for any benefit we might receive.
Yes, she hasn't been acting as one, for reasons including the strict rule-based nature of the Inner Sect and Ling Qi's preference for not rocking the boat.
But she has enjoyed acting as a trickster every time she got to, consistently from the start of the quest. Her increased War skill manifested through her processing battles as heists. The "sticky fingered hurricane" followed up by Ling Qi running to the market in the middle of the night to buy stealth shoes was one of the most joyful personalized character moments we got.
This is I suppose a character development direction preference: I believe Ling Qi should expand on her trickster-iness in the future when she gets out of the strict structure of the Inner Sect, and also whenever she gets the capability within it. She has the aesthetic and the Arts for it already, with MSS and generally fae-like themes.
2. Ambushing groups and wiping them out is a capability Ling Qi has. She does not have the capability to project force from range when she cannot do the former for some reason (needing to be elsewhere and not being able to commit to a longer fight, the presence of higher realm combatants she can only successfully flee from a larger distance etc), and one is not a substitute for the other.
3. A point about the Cloud Nomads' anti-archery defense is good. I still think Ling Qi could spook their Reds and Yellows from ambush (and I do believe it's valuable to be able to do so from another mountain peak), but yeah if I believed Ling Qi's future lies specificially in fighting this war I wouldn't be advocating for an archery dip.
Archery is for places that aren't an active battlefield, and so battlefield control abilities are highly inappropriate.
Did you remember last time we met Cloud Tribes? You know, that time when they tried their best to massacre every villager they see? At that point harassing them with arrows is the same as asking them to kill all mortal folk they can before leaving for next village. You know why? Because there was a lot of them. Harrasing some wouldn't send the message. The only reason they fleed that time is because LQ overpowered their leader who was really close cultivation-wise. And now think of what would have happened if we used Archery against him, even presuming that we had good bow and good Archery Art. Prolonged standoff. Without dealing enough damage it doesn't matter if we can harass him at any part of battlefield. If I were him I would stall for time and use his own archers to harass LQ, stack multi attacker bonuses and reduce our chances to actually hitting him.
I'm not saying that Archery is bad for Stealth missions, on the contrary. But it's pretty niche, because at this level we can finish most stealth missions without needing to harass anyone at all.
What peers? Name someone other than HanJian with good support Arts at that point and even now.
Yes, I remember that time when driving them off was a sufficient and complete victory, yes.
No, archery would not have been a good pick in that particular situation. It's not the only one we'll ever deal with.
Most of what you suggest relies on archery working the same way and having the same innate advantages among immortals as it does irl. But it doesn't. Archery here is not about an arrows, it's about qi. And qi can be applied through music just as well.
An archer can be tracked through their qi. Arrows have harder time hurting people than songs because spiritual defence is often neglected. Powerful archery arts can be traced towards specific user with a decently narrow result. Archery DPS is questionable when compared to spamming buffed CtE from far range every turn.
To get something actually worthwile, it will have to be a significant investment. Perhaps if Ling Qi wasn't trying to be a musician, a diplomat, a spy, a fighter, a thief and a scout there would be an opportunity. But not as it is now and probably not in foreseeable future.
Okay, so the qi is a good point. I believe however that the way Yrsillar is building this world, modes of combat / weapons are meant to have their unique advantages amplified and made more distinct at higher realms even as new interactions (like punching the music) arise among them, not blurred into a single 'just use qi' misshapen mass.
I don't think it's as easy to track an archer by qi they left on an arrow as it is to identify "oh, that's Ling Qi" when she starts up a song.
And where did I suggest getting a powerful non-generic archery art? Taking a low Green FSA successor from the Archive that half the archers out there use would be the entire point for this.
And I've already given my thoughts on Ling Qi's multiple specialities. They synergize, and this would synergize with the whole they form as well.
As for "not now": agreed. Not until Ling Qi is at the point where branching out further is a reasonable option to take. I just expect one will come, if not exactly IRL "soon".
Last edited: