Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Xuan Shi, Su Ling
[X] Xuan Shi, Su Ling, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya

Updating my vote to add the leading no Ji Rong vote.
 
I'm lobbying for the GM and players to have more involved conversations on some things, like how to organize an art vote, so we don't repeat gross miscommunications. I think it's bad when poor communication means things are harder on everyone.

This is fair. If you think there was a miscommunication between GM and players it's an understandable concern. But I don't think there was.

The thread knew at the time that ZG had problems. There were some arts available that were better for dealing with ZG's problems, there was an art that said "fuck ZG we full blizzard maiden now", there were arts that were better for LQ herself. This was understood, this was discussed. And the art that was chosen, was chosen with all these concerns in mind. The fact that ZG problems were not decided to be big enough to pick inferior (arguably) art does not mean there was a miscommunication.

We made some headway with the problems between us using talk-talkiness, but real progress only came about from a scene linked to our lunar cultivation art, and then a second scene linked to cultivating PLR.

This is a wrong approach to the scene, imo. We made real progress because that was the culmination of several arcs of character development for both Ling Qi and Sixiang: morality of killing and mortality had been raised in the bandit arc, problems with integrating into society and pushing people away had been ongoing since the beginning of the quest. That scene was where some answers were finally found. The fact that by chance this was when a mechanically weak art was tweaked into something better (and needed a narrative re-introduction) has no influence on character development.
 
I'm changing my vote to the highest one with Zhengui in it. I think it's bad that we would just ignore him after he gave up a dream for us. Seems like there's some vote splitting, so if other people focus on one Zhengui vote we can catch up.

[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
 
This is fair. If you think there was a miscommunication between GM and players it's an understandable concern. But I don't think there was.

The thread knew at the time that ZG had problems. There were some arts available that were better for dealing with ZG's problems, there was an art that said "fuck ZG we full blizzard maiden now", there were arts that were better for LQ herself. This was understood, this was discussed. And the art that was chosen, was chosen with all these concerns in mind. The fact that ZG problems were not decided to be big enough to pick inferior (arguably) art does not mean there was a miscommunication.



This is a wrong approach to the scene, imo. We made real progress because that was the culmination of several arcs of character development for both Ling Qi and Sixiang: morality of killing and mortality had been raised in the bandit arc, problems with integrating into society and pushing people away had been ongoing since the beginning of the quest. That scene was where some answers were finally found. The fact that by chance this was when a mechanically weak art was tweaked into something better (and needed a narrative re-introduction) has no influence on character development.
The miscommunication I'm talking about took place before the arts were generated and contributed to the distribution of characteristics that ultimately lead to us making the choice we did. The spread of choices we had was biased by poor communication.

As for Sixiang, I think you're forgetting that we weren't able to even discuss the issues with them until the first of the two scenes I mentioned. Sixiang was basically injured/exhausted, and cultivating our cultivation art permitted base access to them as a conversational partner. That's why I described Sixiang as an extreme case. A semi-significant cultivation event was a prerequisite to hash things out with them at all. The PLR scene was the culmination of the efforts made then and further on, yeah.

But even then, the resolution we actually attained relied on Ling Qi's ability to grok Dream stuff to some extent. Without the Moon/Dream foundation that Ling Qi had, swapping perspectives with Sixiang like they did which ultimately let them move forwards wouldn't have been possible. Heck, there were dice rolls involved. The events in the middle weren't unimportant, but both the start and finish relied deeply on shared cultivation and art based capabilities.

Even if you take a meta/gamist perspective on how it turned out, the fact remains that common capabilities between the characters is what allowed multiple issues to be packaged into one scene for resolution. This is efficient! It saves time for the players and the GM. It allows either fewer scenes in a turn/to resolve an arc, or it results in more gainz for our character.

I'm changing my vote to the highest one with Zhengui in it. I think it's bad that we would just ignore him after he gave up a dream for us. Seems like there's some vote splitting, so if other people focus on one Zhengui vote we can catch up.

[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
You can vote for multiple things if you really want to. I did.
 
I am campaigning for what I want to happen. And no, I don't agree that there's any inherent value in sacrificing to accomplish an objective when it could be accomplished via non-sacrificial means. We just need to seize those means. But they also need to be available when it makes sense for that to be the case. There's been mistakes made on all sides, here.


That's not what I'm doing. I'm lobbying for the GM and players to have more involved conversations on some things, like how to organize an art vote, so we don't repeat gross miscommunications. I think it's bad when poor communication means things are harder on everyone.

If everyone could crawl out of my ass for three seconds, that'd be appreciated. I will provide my tone-corrected, non-grumpy premise below in hopes that people will stop being mad at me personally instead of my ideas. And also maybe be angry at ideas I actually have.

Premise: in general, it would be easier to have productive screentime with Zhengui if we had arts that we could cultivate together with him in scenes. This also extends to non-art cultivation activities like skill specialties. This also also extends as a general principle to other characters.
Premise 2: the problems faced by characters often involve their own areas of expertise or fundamental characteristics, both due to the nature of the setting/cultivation and general narrative conventions. Areas of overlap often make it easier for two characters to coordinate on these challenges.

A good example of this kind of thing is Sixiang, though they're an extreme case. We made some headway with the problems between us using talk-talkiness, but real progress only came about from a scene linked to our lunar cultivation art, and then a second scene linked to cultivating PLR. Hanyi is also a good example of these principles: shared character development has been tied to shared arts/natures, to Music more broadly, and more recently promised with her inclusion in Dance lessons.

Generally, it's better for us when our goals are easier to achieve. If we can do things that make our goals easier to achieve that don't cost us a lot, we should. Though obviously the expense factors into the "ease" of achieving something. Precedent and general setting lore point at mutual characteristics making it easier to sort out issues with bonded spirits. On our part, it would save narrative complication by streamlining and collating scenes. Finally, we live in Emerald Seas, we should be drowning in Wood arts- note, this is the only thing I really think yrsillar is at "fault" for, it's the only no-doubt mistake in how things have been handled from his end.

I wish things had been different, so I'm grousing about them. I want things to be different in the future, so I'm grousing about them. Do people understand, now? I'm a lot less subversive than ya'll think.
First thing before I dive into the rest of your piece is this little tidbit here.
"Finally, we live in Emerald Seas, we should be drowning in Wood arts- note, this is the only thing I really think yrsillar is at "fault" for, it's the only no-doubt mistake in how things have been handled from his end."

This is wrong. We haven't asked for many wood arts and the wood arts we get we rarely vote for, so shockingly we don't have many wood arts. Yrsillar is 100% not at fault for that.


Now on to the meat of your post.

From reading your post I've come to realize something. You say your campaigning, and I agree, but what it seems your campaigning for is less a solution to the problems facing our interactions with Zhengui, and more for a smoother narrative structure. To me this is you tilting at windmills. If the solution we arrive to for the problems Zhengui face are a little jerky in terms of overall narrative in the story I don't think it would be a problem at all.

The biggest problem I have with the way your framing your discussion is that your not offering concert solutions. You're saying things are bad and need to change yet not giving examples of what to change to. You're not offering concrete solutions. That's not helpful. We can cultivate any of the arts we found in the archive. If you think one of those arts would be helpful than champion it. Mention it by name.

For me the path forward with Zhengui that I am most interested in is creating an art with Zhengui. Six has PLR that came packaged with her. Hanyi has deep connections with FSS. Zhengui doesn't have an art like those. Given the nature of archive votes and Zhengui's complicated nature I doubt that the thread will be able to find an art that fits there, plus Yrsillar has a habit of not giving us the perfect art for us which I applaud him for because it forces us to have interesting choices.

However, if we craft an art with Zhengui that is based on Zhengui I think it would be a wonderful scene and give us an impactful narrative art and a wonderful character building arc.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Apr 22, 2020 at 7:02 AM, finished with 116 posts and 62 votes.
 
Oh man. I never realized that we had to have an art with deep thematic connections in order to spend meaningful time with someone. I do wonder what arts we have with deep thematic ties to Meizhen though? We have clearly effected her and bonded with her but I can't quite think of any.

Sarcasm aside I think your full of hot air with this idea of yours.
No, no, you don't need to be sarcastic. The very reason Meizhen accepted to cultivate with Ling Qi was because she wanted to train with Sable Crescent Step, as it was similar to some of her own family's arts. In fact, she asked for said training. That you then go historical revisionism about it in order to pretend "We don't need to have things in common with people if it takes effort" just is the cherry on top, here.

Anyway, I disagree with @AbeoLogos that "Zhengui seems OK". He doesn't. He just sacrificed himself not for his own desires but for Ling Qi's job, and out of convenience rather than out of him being really needed. This was written as him being, well, seeking validation. doing a 180 on this with "Yeah, but let's ignore him because he isn't actually asking directly for the desire for valdiation she felt from him and there are shinies around" doesn't appeal to me.

Soooo:



[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Su Ling
[X] Xuan Shi, Bian Ya, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Zhengui, Su Ling, Liao Zhu

Those are the ones that seems that would go forward toward adressing the problem. Yes, the last two ones doesn't have either Hanyi or Zhengui, but they also are "ask the sempais advice" in my mind. So they should work. I consider any other Xuan Shi or Ji Rong options to try to focus on things that are not relevant to a very significant current issue and not relevant for the actual delve for the most part.

I would also be tempted by more Su Ling too, as I think continuing the work we have done at the beginning of the delve is important.
 
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui

His own garden, Zhengui had daydreamed of creating a beautiful place, a place where everyone he liked could come and relax and play, the beatific image in his dreams were marred by flashes of his actual attempts, overgrown clearings that were riots of overgrowth and disorder, contained and removed by his fires.

The dream still shone through, a beautiful garden vale, filled with ordered and sculpted trees, a babbling brook of clear waters, filled with flowers and fruit and plenty, not something that was found, but something that he had made.
He is the best boi
 
First thing before I dive into the rest of your piece is this little tidbit here.
"Finally, we live in Emerald Seas, we should be drowning in Wood arts- note, this is the only thing I really think yrsillar is at "fault" for, it's the only no-doubt mistake in how things have been handled from his end."

This is wrong. We haven't asked for many wood arts and the wood arts we get we rarely vote for, so shockingly we don't have many wood arts. Yrsillar is 100% not at fault for that.


Now on to the meat of your post.

From reading your post I've come to realize something. You say your campaigning, and I agree, but what it seems your campaigning for is less a solution to the problems facing our interactions with Zhengui, and more for a smoother narrative structure. To me this is you tilting at windmills. If the solution we arrive to for the problems Zhengui face are a little jerky in terms of overall narrative in the story I don't think it would be a problem at all.

The biggest problem I have with the way your framing your discussion is that your not offering concert solutions. You're saying things are bad and need to change yet not giving examples of what to change to. You're not offering concrete solutions. That's not helpful. We can cultivate any of the arts we found in the archive. If you think one of those arts would be helpful than champion it. Mention it by name.

For me the path forward with Zhengui that I am most interested in is creating an art with Zhengui. Six has PLR that came packaged with her. Hanyi has deep connections with FSS. Zhengui doesn't have an art like those. Given the nature of archive votes and Zhengui's complicated nature I doubt that the thread will be able to find an art that fits there, plus Yrsillar has a habit of not giving us the perfect art for us which I applaud him for because it forces us to have interesting choices.

However, if we craft an art with Zhengui that is based on Zhengui I think it would be a wonderful scene and give us an impactful narrative art and a wonderful character building arc.
The issue with Wood arts is partially an outgrowth of the narrative problems with TRF, where we never once cultivated it with Zhengui. It was, effectively, packaged with him but that didn't matter. We never had the choice to make it happen, and it didn't happen. Then, later, we got and cultivated SES and it was narratively awkward. No narratives ever developed from it. We also never cultivated it with Zhengui. Imperturbable Manor's Hearth was unpopular because it hit all of Zhengui's elements but none of his themes, but mostly it was strongly redundant with what TRF already did. After that, there's no Wood arts from the archive till the last vote. The Bai art drop only gave us BKSD with wood, which we will be cultivating but barely has anything to do with Zhengui. Wood has been unpopular for stretches of the quest in part because of the screwy handling of the narrative around it. (Plus the complete lack of Yin Wood that isn't poison/gross. Throw us a bone, Yrsillar!)

It's really hard to lobby for any of the Wood arts from the last archive dive when they already lost a vote enshrined in the narrative followed up by us cementing the choice with meridian selection! On top of that, they're deeply flawed arts. Every art from that archive dive was mediocre or didn't fit in our build, with the exception of the ultra-cold-maiden art which thankfully lost out on narrative grounds. This ties back into my complaint about us being in Emerald Seas. I feel like there should be enough Wood arts in the archive that it should be a lot easier to find arts that actually match our needs. This doesn't mean being stronger or higher quality, but hitting more of our needs and having fewer redundancies with our other arts. Just as a matter of a broader selection.

As it is, it's basically impossible to argue that a mediocre art should replace the already pre-selected mediocre art when its meridians are wrong and the themes are only a half-step improvement. If I actually suggested it, people would be tearing my throat out. Nigh-incoherently vague pleas to the mercy of the great @yrsillar delivering us from our plight is among the more productive courses of action actually available to me. If you want an actual concrete suggestion, it'd be to allow us to magically run Burning Glade Restoration off of Zhengui's meridians in a cooperative effort that has no existing mechanical or narrative precedent. Art crafting is approximately 4 million years away and explicitly influenced by arts we've cultivated in the past, so not cultivating anything Zhengui-ish in the meantime actively sabotages any efforts there in the future, but I'd be open to drastically premature access to that in a way that throws the established mechanics directly on their head too, sure.

I'm open to suggests and/or collaboration for brainstorming a better way forward, but there's a reason I've been light on concrete suggestions. The paths for alternatives have been trimmed really effectively.

Edit: hell, I even have to disagree with the idea that a lack of perfect arts leads to interesting choices. Currently, our choice of which art to make a successor to first is set to be one of the least interesting votes of the quest. It's going to be FSS. There's no feasible competitor from a mechanical, build, or narrative point of view. Having something that actually jives with Zhengui in a compelling way would actually provide a challenger worth mentioning. A more fitting art here would make choices more interesting, not less.
 
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Premise: in general, it would be easier to have productive screentime with Zhengui if we had arts that we could cultivate together with him in scenes. This also extends to non-art cultivation activities like skill specialties. This also also extends as a general principle to other characters.
Premise 2: the problems faced by characters often involve their own areas of expertise or fundamental characteristics, both due to the nature of the setting/cultivation and general narrative conventions. Areas of overlap often make it easier for two characters to coordinate on these challenges.
So, let's dive into these premises, as I see some significant issues with them. First off, I'll discuss issues of construction and then I'll discuss issues of relevance.

Issues of Construction
Right off the bat, there is an issue with how Premise 1 is framed. "Easier" is a subjective term that is completely undefined in the premise. By what means is it easier, time to completion, the ease it fits into current narrative arcs, the effort it takes to write a productive Zhengui scene, the ratio between effort and impact, the ratio between the length of scene and impact, etc. This already broad premise is then drastically widened by adding additional facets, non-art cultivation activities, and also extending as a general principle to other characters. Furthermore, by whatever definition "easier" is used, the easiest method of productive screentime is pretty much always a failure state. It is almost always easier not to engage with something than to actually deal with an issue. Easier is not synonymous with effective, useful, or even good.

Additionally, there are no actual means to prove that something is easier, by whatever definition is used, as we can not see what would come from another option. We don't know how the MoSS option for the Sixiang discussion would have turned out. The DC seems to indicate that it would be harder, but without knowing what the roll would have been, it is impossible to determine if it would, in fact, have been easier to go another route. And this is true with almost every decision point in the quest where we can't know the outcomes of another choice. It becomes impossible to determine what, if anything, is easier when there is nothing to compare it too.

Premise 2 suffers the same errors of construction that Premise 1 flounders with. Easier is left undefined and dangling in the wind for individual interpretation with no means of actually authenticating what is easier or harder. It is, for what little it helps, less generalized than the first premise, but only because it starts off with the abstract of characters rather than focusing on specific examples and then broadening out into a frustratingly useless generalized statement. But that should be saved for Issues of Relevance.

Issues of Relevance
These generalized premises have nothing to do with actually arguing for a specific art for Ling Qi to cultivate with Zhengui. In fact, the first premise specifically points out that non-art skill cultivation would be acceptable as well. And yet, these premises are being used for the specific argument that Ling Qi should get a specifically tailored art. There is no connection there, between the premise and the argument. By assuming the first premise is true, then any art that can be cultivated together with Zhengui would be easier to have productive screentime with, no matter how tenuous the connection between the art, Ling Qi, and Zhengui is. Furthermore, given how generalized the premises are, it could very well be easier to find the cases in which the premises are not true and use those cases than actually using the argument the premises are purporting to support.

These premises just don't seem relevant or useful for arguing for any specific course of action.
 
So, let's dive into these premises, as I see some significant issues with them. First off, I'll discuss issues of construction and then I'll discuss issues of relevance.

Issues of Construction
Right off the bat, there is an issue with how Premise 1 is framed. "Easier" is a subjective term that is completely undefined in the premise. By what means is it easier, time to completion, the ease it fits into current narrative arcs, the effort it takes to write a productive Zhengui scene, the ratio between effort and impact, the ratio between the length of scene and impact, etc. This already broad premise is then drastically widened by adding additional facets, non-art cultivation activities, and also extending as a general principle to other characters. Furthermore, by whatever definition "easier" is used, the easiest method of productive screentime is pretty much always a failure state. It is almost always easier not to engage with something than to actually deal with an issue. Easier is not synonymous with effective, useful, or even good.

Additionally, there are no actual means to prove that something is easier, by whatever definition is used, as we can not see what would come from another option. We don't know how the MoSS option for the Sixiang discussion would have turned out. The DC seems to indicate that it would be harder, but without knowing what the roll would have been, it is impossible to determine if it would, in fact, have been easier to go another route. And this is true with almost every decision point in the quest where we can't know the outcomes of another choice. It becomes impossible to determine what, if anything, is easier when there is nothing to compare it too.

Premise 2 suffers the same errors of construction that Premise 1 flounders with. Easier is left undefined and dangling in the wind for individual interpretation with no means of actually authenticating what is easier or harder. It is, for what little it helps, less generalized than the first premise, but only because it starts off with the abstract of characters rather than focusing on specific examples and then broadening out into a frustratingly useless generalized statement. But that should be saved for Issues of Relevance.

Issues of Relevance
These generalized premises have nothing to do with actually arguing for a specific art for Ling Qi to cultivate with Zhengui. In fact, the first premise specifically points out that non-art skill cultivation would be acceptable as well. And yet, these premises are being used for the specific argument that Ling Qi should get a specifically tailored art. There is no connection there, between the premise and the argument. By assuming the first premise is true, then any art that can be cultivated together with Zhengui would be easier to have productive screentime with, no matter how tenuous the connection between the art, Ling Qi, and Zhengui is. Furthermore, given how generalized the premises are, it could very well be easier to find the cases in which the premises are not true and use those cases than actually using the argument the premises are purporting to support.

These premises just don't seem relevant or useful for arguing for any specific course of action.
I framed my post that way to make it easier for others to understand where I'm coming from, not as a serious logic paper. This was a really unhelpful, unkind way to respond. You're actively standing in the way of communication by taking it way too formally serious. You're trying to squeeze water from stones, man.
 
No, no, you don't need to be sarcastic. The very reason Meizhen accepted to cultivate with Ling Qi was because she wanted to train with Sable Crescent Step, as it was similar to some of her own family's arts. In fact, she asked for said training. That you then go historical revisionism about it in order to pretend "We don't need to have things in common with people if it takes effort" just is the cherry on top, here.
You can say that Meizhen wanted to train with Ling Qi because she was interested in SCS but knowing what we know about Meizhen now I would put a maybe in there. Possible, but maybe.

Besides you clearly misunderstood what I said. This is what I said.

We don't need ARTS with THEMATIC TIES to impact people.

I am honestly flabbergasted that you managed to misunderstand what I said so much.

The issue with Wood arts is partially an outgrowth of the narrative problems with TRF, where we never once cultivated it with Zhengui. It was, effectively, packaged with him but that didn't matter. We never had the choice to make it happen, and it didn't happen. Then, later, we got and cultivated SES and it was narratively awkward. No narratives ever developed from it. We also never cultivated it with Zhengui. Imperturbable Manor's Hearth was unpopular because it hit all of Zhengui's elements but none of his themes, but mostly it was strongly redundant with what TRF already did. After that, there's no Wood arts from the archive till the last vote. The Bai art drop only gave us BKSD with wood, which we will be cultivating but barely has anything to do with Zhengui. Wood has been unpopular for stretches of the quest in part because of the screwy handling of the narrative around it. (Plus the complete lack of Yin Wood that isn't poison/gross. Throw us a bone, Yrsillar!)

It's really hard to lobby for any of the Wood arts from the last archive dive when they already lost a vote enshrined in the narrative followed up by us cementing the choice with meridian selection! On top of that, they're deeply flawed arts. Every art from that archive dive was mediocre or didn't fit in our build, with the exception of the ultra-cold-maiden art which thankfully lost out on narrative grounds. This ties back into my complaint about us being in Emerald Seas. I feel like there should be enough Wood arts in the archive that it should be a lot easier to find arts that actually match our needs. This doesn't mean being stronger or higher quality, but hitting more of our needs and having fewer redundancies with our other arts. Just as a matter of a broader selection.

As it is, it's basically impossible to argue that a mediocre art should replace the already pre-selected mediocre art when its meridians are wrong and the themes are only a half-step improvement. If I actually suggested it, people would be tearing my throat out. Nigh-incoherently vague pleas to the mercy of the great @yrsillar delivering us from our plight is among the more productive courses of action actually available to me. If you want an actual concrete suggestion, it'd be to allow us to magically run Burning Glade Restoration off of Zhengui's meridians in a cooperative effort that has no existing mechanical or narrative precedent. Art crafting is approximately 4 million years away and explicitly influenced by arts we've cultivated in the past, so not cultivating anything Zhengui-ish in the meantime actively sabotages any efforts there in the future, but I'd be open to drastically premature access to that in a way that throws the established mechanics directly on their head too, sure.

I'm open to suggests and/or collaboration for brainstorming a better way forward, but there's a reason I've been light on concrete suggestions. The paths for alternatives have been trimmed really effectively.

Edit: hell, I even have to disagree with the idea that a lack of perfect arts leads to interesting choices. Currently, our choice of which art to make a successor to first is set to be one of the least interesting votes of the quest. It's going to be FSS. There's no feasible competitor from a mechanical, build, or narrative point of view. Having something that actually jives with Zhengui in a compelling way would actually provide a challenger worth mentioning. A more fitting art here would make choices more interesting, not less.

The biggest problem I have with your post is the idea that it's ok to ask Yrs to change something. I don't agree. At all. The only exception is if a vote is mixed up. For example, the adventure with Xuan Shi, there was a scene there when we voted for defense but Yrs wrote the piece for offense. That is the only time I think anyone can plead with an author to change something. That's it. Just because begging Yrs to change things may be a more productive use of time doesn't mean that it's what should happen. Because if you did that what would stop me from begging Yrs to change things right back?

Reading this post makes me think you want a solution that involves no work on your part. You have all these wonderful ideas about narrative and how things could flow yet you offer no concrete solutions. You cry out that if you even tried to stir up passion for an art that doesn't perfectly fit our build your throat would be ripped out. So you don't even try. You offer to collaborate and brainstorm yet sit there passive waiting for someone else to start. So what if paths for alternatives have been trimmed? Push in the thread for more paths to be opened. Is it hard? Yes. Will it work? Who knows.
 
I framed my post that way to make it easier for others to understand where I'm coming from, not as a serious logic paper. This was a really unhelpful, unkind way to respond. You're actively standing in the way of communication by taking it way too formally serious. You're trying to squeeze water from stones, man.
I'm confused about why it would be easier to understand your position when the premises you stated form the basis for the said position are contradictory to the actual argument you are making. That just creates confusion and misunderstanding.

I'm also not treating it as a serious logic paper, because I didn't touch the errors of deductive reasoning or the logical fallacies I'm seeing in the post, because those aren't particularly relevant in trying to understand your position. What is relevant, in my opinion, is the consistency and usefulness of the premises to the argument you are trying to make. If they aren't consistent or useful, then it creates misunderstandings of what you are actually arguing for or why you are arguing for it.
 
As it is, it's basically impossible to argue that a mediocre art should replace the already pre-selected mediocre art when its meridians are wrong and the themes are only a half-step improvement. If I actually suggested it, people would be tearing my throat out. Nigh-incoherently vague pleas to the mercy of the great @yrsillar delivering us from our plight is among the more productive courses of action actually available to me.

Does this mean that you want Yrsillar to give a wooden art that perfectly fits with Zhengui because it's "impossible to argue" for what arts there are now? That's not a narrative problem, nor is this a miscommunication. There is nothing wrong with that.

As for Sixiang, I think you're forgetting that we weren't able to even discuss the issues with them until the first of the two scenes I mentioned. Sixiang was basically injured/exhausted, and cultivating our cultivation art permitted base access to them as a conversational partner. That's why I described Sixiang as an extreme case. A semi-significant cultivation event was a prerequisite to hash things out with them at all

True. But it was a prerequisite only because Sixiang specifically didn't want to talk to Ling Qi and was tired of humans. Zhengui has no such problems. He's not tired like Six was. He isn't having an existential crisis. That example isn't for the current situation.

The events in the middle weren't unimportant, but both the start and finish relied deeply on shared cultivation and art based capabilities.

Start relied on having something to bring Sixiang into a conversation to start things off. Finish didn't rely on cultivating Moon/Dreams, from my point of view if we didn't do it, we would have found another solution, that's all. If you think without it we would have failed, prove it.

It's really hard to lobby for any of the Wood arts from the last archive dive when they already lost a vote enshrined in the narrative followed up by us cementing the choice with meridian selection!

It's usually hard to lobby for anything that's already lost a vote. Especially when situation and competitors don't change much. That's how the system works. It is not a problem with the quest.

Wood has been unpopular for stretches of the quest in part because of the screwy handling of the narrative around it.

How did you figure it out?
 
The biggest problem I have with your post is the idea that it's ok to ask Yrs to change something. I don't agree. At all. The only exception is if a vote is mixed up. For example, the adventure with Xuan Shi, there was a scene there when we voted for defense but Yrs wrote the piece for offense. That is the only time I think anyone can plead with an author to change something. That's it. Just because begging Yrs to change things may be a more productive use of time doesn't mean that it's what should happen. Because if you did that what would stop me from begging Yrs to change things right back?

Reading this post makes me think you want a solution that involves no work on your part. You have all these wonderful ideas about narrative and how things could flow yet you offer no concrete solutions. You cry out that if you even tried to stir up passion for an art that doesn't perfectly fit our build your throat would be ripped out. So you don't even try. You offer to collaborate and brainstorm yet sit there passive waiting for someone else to start. So what if paths for alternatives have been trimmed? Push in the thread for more paths to be opened. Is it hard? Yes. Will it work? Who knows.
I... I am pushing in thread for more paths to be opened. The thing that I'm begging yrsillar to do, or other players, if he/they deign(s) to do anything, is provide better options. I am not asking him to delete an art I don't like. I am not asking him to decide by fiat that we cultivate a certain art. I am asking for opportunities in which there can be choices made. As things stand, there are very few options available to us as it relates to our art loadout. Not real ones, and not desirable ones. The way meridians function create very very tight bounds to what's feasible.

You're basically criticizing me for doing what you think I should be doing. But are things clearer now?

I'm confused about why it would be easier to understand your position when the premises you stated form the basis for the said position are contradictory to the actual argument you are making. That just creates confusion and misunderstanding.

I'm also not treating it as a serious logic paper, because I didn't touch the errors of deductive reasoning or the logical fallacies I'm seeing in the post, because those aren't particularly relevant in trying to understand your position. What is relevant, in my opinion, is the consistency and usefulness of the premises to the argument you are trying to make. If they aren't consistent or useful, then it creates misunderstandings of what you are actually arguing for or why you are arguing for it.
Then ignore them, I guess is the best I can suggest. The filter you applied to my post was looking for waaaay more rigor than was ever intended to be behind it. It looks incoherent because you're practically reading it in a different language. Like, you draw all kinds of hard conclusions from things I didn't say or clarify or include and, well, yeah it all falls apart in that case. An approach I'd have a much easier time responding to would be if you listed those irregularities as succinct questions for me. Extracting what you want to know from your post is actually pretty difficult for me.

The point was to give a really brief, simple summary of some of my assumptions for easy consumption for people I'd been confusing with more back-and-forth exchanges. Obviously my efforts weren't particularly successful or clear.

Please unspaghettify your post, and I'll try to respond.
 
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[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
 
I said in the Discord that the only real improvement I'd like to see to future art dives, assuming yrsillar doesn't massively overhaul the system, is to allow us to vote, not just for art keywords, but for characters. Like, in the last dive, the #1 and #2 non-element keywords were Renewal and Growth, which were born directly out of Zhengui's nature (the spirit [Names] his halves have, from the interlude where we got his PoV as a baby, are literally [Growth] and [Renewal]). So I don't think Abeo is off-base in saying "we wanted a Zhengui art." However, maybe we could have gotten better results if we could have just voted [X] Zhengui and let yrsillar decide how to integrate Zhengui-ness with the rest of the vote.

Anyway, speaking of our son:
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi
[X] Zhengui, Xuan Shi

Also, people should be advised that there exists a bloc voting for Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi, and another bloc voting for Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi, and due to the tally these won't appear together unless you manually combine them.
 
Then ignore them, I guess is the best I can suggest. The filter you applied to my post was looking for waaaay more rigor than was ever intended to be behind it. It looks incoherent because you're practically reading it in a different language. Like, you draw all kinds of hard conclusions from things I didn't say or clarify or include and, well, yeah it all falls apart in that case. An approach I'd have a much easier time responding to would be if you listed those irregularities as succinct questions for me. Extracting what you want to know from your post is actually pretty difficult for me.

The point was to give a really brief, simple summary of some of my assumptions for easy consumption for people I'd been confusing with more back-and-forth exchanges. Obviously my efforts weren't particularly successful or clear.
And I am ignoring them, which is what I said. We're not dealing with those because those would be even more unhelpful. So here, is hopefully, something more you can sink your teeth into to refine the premises into something that you can clearly point to as your assumptions that will be helpful for others to either argue for or against the argument you want to present. That argument being, in my understanding and succinctly, That Ling Qi should connect her themes and narratives to Zhengui through appropriate arts or skills to further develop Zhengui's themes and narratives in the context of the wider narrative.

First question: Is your concern about Zhengui that Ling Qi should be connecting to his themes and narratives in the wider story? Because what seems to be the crux of your argument is that Ling Qi should have more connections to Zhengui's themes and narratives and bring those out into the wider story.

Second question: Is a concern regarding cultivating arts or skills with Zhengui is that those arts or skills should have thematic or narrative ties to Zhengui's themes and narrative? This seems to be your argument, but if it is not then that needs to be addressed.

Third question: Are the problem with integrating Zhengui's themes and narrative to Ling Qi's themes and narratives something that should be addressed with Ling Qi's themes and narratives? It seems to be that your argument revolves around tieing Ling Qi's themes and narrative to Zhengui's themes rather than relying on outside narratives, but if that is not the case then that needs to be made clear.

These three questions seem to hold the crux of what your argument revolves around. If the answer is yes to these questions, then that's all you need. These would create discrete parts and assumptions regarding your argument that can be argued for or against. Hopefully this is more helpful.
 
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Xuan Shi

Come on, Zhengui is suffering. We are suffering because he is suffering and addressing this earlier is better than addressing it later. Let's comfort him in his pain.

Honestly I want to just give him a hug but his sheer size makes that difficult and only hugging Zhen would be unfair to Gui. Our domain is part of us, right? Can we use that to give him a hug?
 
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[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi
[X] Zhengui, Xuan Shi
[X] In case it wasn't clear, anything with Zhengui

I can only hope that understanding how awful it feels to see others sacrificing themselves will help resolve our heart demon...
 
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Xuan Shi

Come on, Zhengui is suffering. We are suffering because he is suffering and addressing this earlier is better than addressing it later. Let's comfort him in his pain.

Honestly I want to just give him a hug but his sheer size makes that difficult and only hugging Zhen would be unfair to Gui. Our domain is part of us, right? Can we use that to give him a hug?
We shall cover Zhengui in a swarm of Mini Qi's
 
We do know that if we pick Rong by himself Xuan will be pissed off right?
Guan and Rong together seem like a better option in that regard since it's mission related and doesn't look like we're actively seeking his arch rival's company as better to talk with than our own real friend.
Adhoc vote count started by uiopion on Apr 22, 2020 at 10:21 AM, finished with 134 posts and 68 votes.
 
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