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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Inserted tally
We don't have existing issues with seeing/treating Biyu as a hindrance. We do with Zhengui. The context is completely different.
The only pot-stirring part of my other post was the bit involving Hanyi, which was hyperbolic. Also meant as a joke, but it fell pretty flat. The reason I shifted in tone is because you, understandably, misunderstood my intent. The fact you're treating that as suspicious is pretty frustrating, honestly.
I wasn't even thinking about any of her domain insights. I'm basing things off of small hints on her viewpoints spread throughout different events, like her take on witnessing Zhengui's spar with Wang Chao, where she said she'd have to "sacrifice" some of her own cultivation time to get him up to scratch, or something similar. Going back to my original point, it would be a lot easier to work around these pitfalls of perspective if we just... had the tools to directly work with him and also benefit from it. We could have chosen to have those, but we didn't. Now things are harder. They just are. It's how things are, and I wish they weren't.
As an example, look at WHR. Keywords: Boundaries, Hearth, Security, Cold, Fire, Resist, Balanced, Composure, Music. We know from WoG from when Coldstar Blade Foundations showed up that Cold's complementary advanced element based on Fire is Heat. This art seems to have a Heat-like basis to its Fire, given the Balance with Cold and the way that Heat easily relates to the Hearth themes. The issue as it relates to Zhengui is that his fire is thematically related to his Renewal and not strongly to something like Heat. It's a tool to enact a specific kind of transformation on his environment, not there to act as a standing source of warmth. Further, his protective/warding/security/etc themes have been primarily manifesting through his Wood, with his only Fire-based protective measure of others being a bite that doesn't fit the themes of the art at all. WHR is maybe a D-grade art in terms of matching Zhengui's themes. Meanwhile, it's something like a C+ or a B for Hanyi.
Even if the current opportunity wasn't plant-based in nature, WHR would be a lackluster instrument in dealing with it. We chose the art in part over narrative considerations, but I'm flatly not seeing how the payoff is supposed to work. If the art can't do its job, we should take a long second look at what and why the situation is and work with @yrsillar to come to a fix that actually serves the needs of the narrative and characters within it.
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Xuan Shi, Bian Ya, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi Zhengui, Su Ling
[X] Xuan Shi, Su Ling, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Xuan Shi, Bian Ya, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi Zhengui, Su Ling
[X] Xuan Shi, Su Ling, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
- Location
- California
As far as I recall, we chose WHR because it was the best option available for us overall, not because it was particularly good for our relationship with Zhengui. I'm not sure how you can say it can't do its job (nor am I perfectly clear on what job you're expecting it to do). In general, I mostly agree with your concerns, but I don't think they're as large as you're making them out to be. Although it would be nice, I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have an art that we can cultivate with Zhengui. I also don't believe we need to work with yrsillar to fix this. I don't think any such attempt would be successful, as there isn't a consensus in the thread on this issue, and also believe that doing so would limit yrsillar's narrative freedom excessively.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Xuan Shi
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Bian Ya
The lack of Bias Ya makes me sad (I'm fine with interacting with Ji Rong)
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Xuan Shi
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Bian Ya
The lack of Bias Ya makes me sad (I'm fine with interacting with Ji Rong)
Aside from family stuff, I feel like the thing we have with Wang Chao might help with that since we voted to contribute to Zhengui's broader skill. He's going to meet with other spirits maybe, and possibly gain that Craft/Art skill from them.
[X] Xuan Shi, Bian Ya, Guan Zhi
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
[X] Guan Zhi, Bian Ya, Liao Zhu
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Bian Ya
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Guan Zhi
[X] Hanyi, Zhengui, Liao Zhu
- Location
- Earth
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Guan Zhi
- Location
- Random place
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Guan Zhi
Thinking about it, I really want Zhengui and Ling Qingge to interact more often. I've really enjoyed the few times they have and thought it was really sweet how Zhengui immediately defaulted to calling her grandmother. It would be nice for that to develop into an actual relationship between them, to the point that they're comfortable meeting each other without Ling Qi being present. I think Zhengui would enjoy having another person, apart from a few spirit friends, to talk to when Ling Qi is cultivating or busy with something. It also might help Ling Qi with her issues about being a teenage mother to a spirit beast if her own mother was involved, which would nice.
You're right a number of concerns went into selecting WHR. Touching on Zhengui is one of them though, and it's even stated in the narrative post-selection. And it's really bad at it. It's also pretty meh at... everything else it does. On personal Resist, it only really helps Music. On team support, it's decent but fussy. The only things it really has going for it is that it wasn't the other arts, it was winter aesthetics, and Boundaries is an interesting keyword.
My honest expectation is that it'll be a lodestone around the neck of yrsillar's narrative freedom because its characteristics don't support usage that addresses the issues Ling Qi has been having in the narrative, rather than continuing them. The Music-heavy focus makes it just as awkward for its Resist role as SES had been, just in a new way. The support is reminiscent of HDW's; on-paper good, but something we never take advantage of because it isn't straight out amazing enough to encourage a smidgen of patience and actually working with others cooperatively.
Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully I am, though there's this huge pile of shitting on Zhengui even still. But an art that involves such deep compromises in application like WHR does not spark joy. It's added complexity and complication when the whole point of replacing SES was to get something that works with what we're trying to do. All of the things we're trying to do.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
Because wow, Zhengui is the most important one. Turtle Son may be perfectly happy to sacrifice that for us, but it still deserves a Thank You because he is a good boy and that was still a big thing for him to do. This isn't some case where his jimmies are rustled over something upsetting and Qi has to give him some space so he can work through it, this is him doing something selfless for Qi's benefit and deserving an expression of gratitude. I don't want any hint of neglect or avoiding Qi's conflicted feelings about the matter by shutting down.
Also, we don't need Guan there to talk to Rong, we're fine, and otherwise I can't think of any pressing reason to talk to her over others. Qi will take the time to tend to her spirits and we can have a short word with a guy I've wanted to be at least amicable with.
Because wow, Zhengui is the most important one. Turtle Son may be perfectly happy to sacrifice that for us, but it still deserves a Thank You because he is a good boy and that was still a big thing for him to do. This isn't some case where his jimmies are rustled over something upsetting and Qi has to give him some space so he can work through it, this is him doing something selfless for Qi's benefit and deserving an expression of gratitude. I don't want any hint of neglect or avoiding Qi's conflicted feelings about the matter by shutting down.
Also, we don't need Guan there to talk to Rong, we're fine, and otherwise I can't think of any pressing reason to talk to her over others. Qi will take the time to tend to her spirits and we can have a short word with a guy I've wanted to be at least amicable with.
[X] Hanyi, Ji Rong, Zhengui
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
Pretty confused why we are ignoring Zhengui. If anything now would be a good time to try and renew his motiviation in things. Or at least get him to a more even keel before we have our big fight.
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Guan Zhi
[X] Zhengui, Hanyi, Xuan Shi
Pretty confused why we are ignoring Zhengui. If anything now would be a good time to try and renew his motiviation in things. Or at least get him to a more even keel before we have our big fight.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why are you complaining about a vote from February?
Incidentally, I'm not entirely comfortable with you suggesting an attempt at workshopping issues in the story with the GM, given some of the discussion and complaints which happened with the mentioned vote.
Also, "huge pile of shitting on Zhengui even still?" Really? Where's this sudden narrative coming from?
- Location
- The Space Between
I mean. Discussion of workshopping narrative issues is something that has been done to the story's benefit a few times already. And the problems don't start from the mentioned vote, but the mentioned vote *was* warped to better suit the players due to a barrage of complaints and then it sort of. Got weird. That was a weird vote for the quest imo, not because it was a particularly loud Art vote but because it was a *very* scattered and confused Art vote. LQ didn't know 100% what she was looking for. Thread didn't either. Author suggestions weren't right by Thread's judgement, but like. It's not like Thread knew what it wanted. I'm not looking to rewrite the winner, but I do think the context of how WHR is going to be cultivated is going to be important (more on that later)
As for ZG, the "sudden narrative" isn't actually sudden.
on the smaller scale planning of Forge we used to have much more direct narrative control over the flow of development which had more votes per timespan which gave ZG and his development greater narrative weight. In Threads we basically outsource the development and distance planning to the Cabal and because ZG's development isn't linear or explicit he isn't included as part of the month-to-month medium term planning by the Cabal, which results in him never getting proper midground priority even when Short Term interests want it and Long Term interests want it.
There was a period of time in Forge where the people that really wanted to keep the Support Build flavor made a push to have Zhengui be the main dps and tank while we just support him. This wasn't practical, but we've been treating all of our spirits kinda wrong for most of Threads now. Six just had their breakout arc that resulted in getting much better integrated. Hanyi still needs hers, but that's somewhat reliant on Hanyi's development. Zhengui though? Zhengui's narrative development (or lack thereof) has been on us the whole time. Boy is out there, making gardens and playing and cooking surprises and we're just too busy for that and leave him behind in fights ):
WHR is a strong if weird Art, cultivating it in the context of doing a group garden project where everybody is a little unskilled but we're all working together is like. Probably the way to go about that. It's not going to directly relate to ZG like some hoped I don't think, but I do think it *can* be a stepping stone in figuring out ways for all 4 of us to work more cohesively together. I also think that Alingge interactions (and hangin with Wang and the Gang in general) will be very helpful too.
There's a risk that without strong narrative support WHR would become an SES/HDW 2.0 but I also think that it could be the narrative start of pulling our spirits into the Cabal Madness of the end of month. Not numbers wise I don't think, but something narrative to discuss with all four of us together so that we have an idea of where everyone is headed and maybe give some input on direction (us to them or them to us). And honestly? This sort of garden is the first step to a proper band. Do you know how hard a root-bass would slap?
Yuh
I'm about it
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I'm only incidentally complaining about a vote from February. I'm complaining that we only have relatively clumsy and narrative interrupting means available for resolving issues with Zhengui because our cultivation career is a cavalcade of choices to have as little in common with him as possible.
Most of the problems with the vote happened because of a lack of workshopping on what the vote would look like in the first place, and last-minute changes to its structure. More consultation and communication between the players and the GM would have probably averted the miscommunications. What's clear is that the arms-length approach where neither side really understands what the other one is doing or going for isn't doing a very good job when it comes to things like arts builds. I'm lobbying for more communication in general; the specific situation with the art is a touchstone for that issue for me, but I honestly don't care if it gets replaced or not. It's an example, not an objective.
The specific quote about shitting on Zhengui was me saying even if WHR works out in general, it's not going to be helpful with Zhengui. And the backlog of issues with Zhengui isn't really being resolved. It's being referenced and perpetuated, with a dob more self-awareness on Ling Qi's part than usual. It's not super encouraging. At the same time, the easiest tools for reaching resolutions keep being turned down. Art that fits his themes/elements? No thanks. Tight focus on diagnosing and resolving how we work together? No, let's go with a broader focus/other people.
There's been a bunch of navel gazing, and a lot less action. There's been little payoff so far, and few tools have been collected to help with the issues. Ling Qi's done exactly two things. First, she's made a promise she still doesn't understand the meaning of. Second, she let Zhengui help here, which has some ambiguity due to her hangups on personal growth, her attitudes towards Zhengui there, and the consequences the choice had for whoever ended up "paying".
It's a process. Relationships are complicated and instant gratification is an unreasonable expectation. It's just really difficult to expect the process to actually carry out when we have so many other competing priorities and demands on our time. It would inspire a lot of confidence if we had some, any really, narratively convenient touchstone between the two of us that didn't require any sacrifice or compromise. We do, however, lack that. When you look at all the things we need to get done, all the pies we have fingers in, there's a real crunch on the time and space to explore this stuff. Things are harder than they need to be on us and yrsillar, and there's no actual benefit we're trading all that trouble for.
Doesn't seem worthwhile to shoehorn WHR cultivation into a garden project. It's not suited to it. We don't have any art suited to it. Ling Qi is incapable of a convincing garden project that integrates the cultivation of an art. She can do garden stuff anyway, if you don't mind dealing with time-crunch issues lingering in the back of her mind. Some other kind of group venture with different arts also totally works fine, like the Wang Gang training in general should do to some extent. But arts and the garden? It's dead before it had a chance. We don't have the tools for it.
It's a really direct example of the cost of not having overlap with your spirit. There's a thing that was important to him that isn't a thing we can help with without sacrificing what's important to us(cultivation time). Lack of mutual focus means taking a hit to capacity for mutual effort. There's no escaping it, it's hard baked into the realities of the setting. And frankly, we shouldn't be trying to escape it; we should be making more rational choices in the first place, so it just isn't a problem.
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DangerKitty
shoddy writter
- Location
- lala land
[X] Ji Rong, Ji Rong, Ji Rong
With this we can have a enough time to have a long, drawn out philisophical debate about how cool the two of us are for having legendary spirit beast while being commoners
With this we can have a enough time to have a long, drawn out philisophical debate about how cool the two of us are for having legendary spirit beast while being commoners
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
This is a quest. If you want something to happen then campaign for it. You believe that we don't have convenient narrative touchstones between Ling Qi and Zhengui, I disagree strongly with this, but that doesn't mean action can't or shouldn't be taken. It might just take sacrifice or comprise because that is what relationships often are. The thread has made a series of choices and those choices may not have made an optimal path to solve the situation Ling Qi finds herself in. Shockingly, life is often like that. It's not a problem with the quest that Yrs needs to workshop out. Its a facet of reality. There are consequences to choices. Ling Qi has to deal with those consequences. You say that Yrs is making this harder on himself than he needs too. I disagree. The thread just needs to choose to make time for Zhengui. If the thread choices screen time for Zhengui than Yrs will be able to write more development for him. Will it take sacrifice or compromise? I think so. But isn't that what life's about?
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Our cultivation is decided by votes. Why do you think it's OK to try to bring GM to overrule something the majority of the thread voted for? If you dislike it, if you disagree with it you should appeal to people during votes to get your preferred vote to win, not try to lobby to GM because of narrative problems with the story only you see.
I am campaigning for what I want to happen. And no, I don't agree that there's any inherent value in sacrificing to accomplish an objective when it could be accomplished via non-sacrificial means. We just need to seize those means. But they also need to be available when it makes sense for that to be the case. There's been mistakes made on all sides, here.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm lobbying for the GM and players to have more involved conversations on some things, like how to organize an art vote, so we don't repeat gross miscommunications. I think it's bad when poor communication means things are harder on everyone.
If everyone could crawl out of my ass for three seconds, that'd be appreciated. I will provide my tone-corrected, non-grumpy premise below in hopes that people will stop being mad at me personally instead of my ideas. And also maybe be angry at ideas I actually have.
Premise: in general, it would be easier to have productive screentime with Zhengui if we had arts that we could cultivate together with him in scenes. This also extends to non-art cultivation activities like skill specialties. This also also extends as a general principle to other characters.
Premise 2: the problems faced by characters often involve their own areas of expertise or fundamental characteristics, both due to the nature of the setting/cultivation and general narrative conventions. Areas of overlap often make it easier for two characters to coordinate on these challenges.
A good example of this kind of thing is Sixiang, though they're an extreme case. We made some headway with the problems between us using talk-talkiness, but real progress only came about from a scene linked to our lunar cultivation art, and then a second scene linked to cultivating PLR. Hanyi is also a good example of these principles: shared character development has been tied to shared arts/natures, to Music more broadly, and more recently promised with her inclusion in Dance lessons.
Generally, it's better for us when our goals are easier to achieve. If we can do things that make our goals easier to achieve that don't cost us a lot, we should. Though obviously the expense factors into the "ease" of achieving something. Precedent and general setting lore point at mutual characteristics making it easier to sort out issues with bonded spirits. On our part, it would save narrative complication by streamlining and collating scenes. Finally, we live in Emerald Seas, we should be drowning in Wood arts- note, this is the only thing I really think yrsillar is at "fault" for, it's the only no-doubt mistake in how things have been handled from his end.
I wish things had been different, so I'm grousing about them. I want things to be different in the future, so I'm grousing about them. Do people understand, now? I'm a lot less subversive than ya'll think.
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