Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Yeah, I can see that I managed to make everyone unhappy here, between trying to establish threat while also not smacking ling qi too hard, and forgetting shit like domain weapons, I'm going to put the vote on hold while I rework things
 
It has been pointed out to LQ explicitly that 'draw pursuers after a retreat onto Cloud territory and then shank them to death' is a strategy that the enemy here uses.

Like, not as a subtle thing. Pretty much 'Follow retreating Cloud barbarians and you will die'.
It's only fair that our enemy have a turn at their strategy not working, then. I don't get the objection. Ling Qi risked life and limb to drive the group off from the village before. Just now, in fact. It turned out pretty okay. In the context of the binary decision we have, it's the same one now, only slightly more ambiguous. Because of the two choices we have, it's reasonable(I'd argue more reasonable) to perceive the barbarian host in the same terms as when we first arrived. It's the same risk for the same gain, only extended. Is the risk of the village being sacked by their most powerful more palatable now? It doesn't seem so to me, at least.
 
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Since I can't tell which is true, I have to judge by which consequences I want to mitigate. If the premise of Search and Rescue is correct, then the consequences of not picking it are still pretty mild. No villagers are threatened or harmed(except in the context of not assisted with existing fire/injury) if the retreat is real and we pursue the barbarians. Other way around? Literally the worst scenario.
I think the votes aren't that clear. Search and Rescue does say it's possible some of the enemies don't retreat immediately.
 
Focusing on the reds would have been a dumb tactic so I'm glad Ling Qi actually pursued what the vote option actually told her to do (i.e. the green and yellow interlocking supports). Can you imagine Ling Qi running around like a headless chicken for some tiny red trio while the rest of the reds go to town and the green and yellow main force continued to buff all the reds in sight?

Ling Qi succeeded at her chosen tactic. She just didn't uber crit succeed and likely wasn't going to with the resources on hand and her low war score. She pushed back the main force, allowing Shen Hu to focus on evacuation rather than defense with the amount of space he got and because the main force was focused on Ling Qi (and unbuffed reds are basically flies to him). The vote explicitly considers the reds scattering around her to be a success and intended consequence of her chosen tactic, but she trusted the imperials to 'win' their 1v1s versus tiny red groups rather than a giant warband. And hey, she was right - they are winning their 1v1s for the most part.

Edit: To avoid a double post -

The sharp eyed tribesman showed no trouble in navigating her mist, much to her annoyance, she could sense the woven strands of qi resonating from each of the riders to enhance the others, weak effects building and building upon each other, until even the second realms could navigate with ease. However, that was not her only tool any longer, not by a long shot.

This is the COOLEST effect yet. This is like some geth exponential intelligence thing, some harmonizing connection web. I bet as a green or even a yellow, you don't need to have huge range. You just need enough range to hit someone in your group, and then that someone relays the effects to another like a broadcast tower or a router in the web. Except imagine that every one of these relayers are also the origins of a support effect so it's just a giant web of support effects being received and relayed around constantly to everyone in range, who then relays as well...

I bet cloud nomad warbands hit above their grade so that it's super hard to break off or kill the first few, but once you start, they crumble faster than a comparative imperial group because they're not as strong individually. That'd explain why the bard immediately intervened as soon as he saw Ling Qi break off a few (one probable kill, one elegied) because Ling Qi had shown she could start the ball rolling.

(And their comparative weakness would explain why Shen Hu, once Ling Qi pushed the main group out, could treat the unbuffed reds as flies.)
 
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Yeah, I can see that I managed to make everyone unhappy here, between trying to establish threat while also not smacking ling qi too hard, and forgetting shit like domain weapons, I'm going to put the vote on hold while I rework things

I honestly think that rewriting is not needed. Several complains I read are just downright unreasonable.
For example: The complaint about her not pursuing the Reds? That was an entirely correct decision, because if Ling Qi was focused on the Reds then the Yellows and Greens would have been free to act instead.

Another example: calling the result of the vote a failure: It was not. It was also not the ultimate perfect result we argued with during the discussion, but calling this a failure is just not correct. Shen Hu dying would have been a massive failure. Getting injured enough that our percieved failure becomes the gossip of noble scions at the sect would have been a failure too. The actual result of the choice? They were pretty reasonable all things considered and can still be considerd a success, even if Ling Qi herself doesnt see it that way.

I for one actually like that we get to see a 'real' army in action. It was nice to see how an army can react to a slightly superior cultivator arriving at the battle. This was in way a good reality check for us and Ling Qi after we saw how we stomped the bandits before. (and i think this part was intended?)
 
This is the COOLEST effect yet. This is like some geth exponential intelligence thing, some harmonizing connection web. I bet as a green or even a yellow, you don't need to have huge range. You just need enough range to hit someone in your group, and then that someone relays the effects to another like a broadcast tower or a router in the web. Except imagine that every one of these relayers are also the origins of a support effect so it's just a giant web of support effects being received and relayed around constantly to everyone in range, who then relays as well...

I bet cloud nomad warbands hit above their grade so that it's super hard to break off or kill the first few, but once you start, they crumble faster than a comparative imperial group because they're not as strong individually. That'd explain why the bard immediately intervened as soon as he saw Ling Qi break off a few (one probable kill, one elegied) because Ling Qi had shown she could start the ball rolling.

(And their comparative weakness would explain why Shen Hu, once Ling Qi pushed the main group out, could treat the unbuffed reds as flies.)
If true, that might also explain the willingness to retreat.
 
I honestly think that rewriting is not needed. Several complains I read are just downright unreasonable.
For example: The complaint about her not pursuing the Reds? That was an entirely correct decision, because if Ling Qi was focused on the Reds then the Yellows and Greens would have been free to act instead.

Another example: calling the result of the vote a failure: It was not. It was also not the ultimate perfect result we argued with during the discussion, but calling this a failure is just not correct. Shen Hu dying would have been a massive failure. Getting injured enough that our percieved failure becomes the gossip of noble scions at the sect would have been a failure too. The actual result of the choice? They were pretty reasonable all things considered and can still be considerd a success, even if Ling Qi herself doesnt see it that way.

I for one actually like that we get to see a 'real' army in action. It was nice to see how an army can react to a slightly superior cultivator arriving at the battle. This was in way a good reality check for us and Ling Qi after we saw how we stomped the bandits before. (and i think this part was intended?)
The overall outcome isn't going to change, I'm not going to give in and make Ling Qi trounce them, but I feel like I need to clear up what exactly is happening on all fronts and probably rework the votes, since nobody seems particularly enthused for any of the options.
 
Yeah, I can see that I managed to make everyone unhappy here, between trying to establish threat while also not smacking ling qi too hard, and forgetting shit like domain weapons, I'm going to put the vote on hold while I rework things
While I think you made a vocal part of the voter base unhappy with what happened in the update, I do think that for the most part, it was a fine update.

I think that no matter how you did it, making the Barbarians a threat to Ling Qi was going to generate complaints and showing just how strong Ling Qi is compared to others is going to generate complaints. Trying to strike a balance between the two, is, in my belief, also going to generate complaints.
 
I will note that while I like the update, the domain weapon part got some merit. We had this from last update:
At her shoulder, the mist churned and a second voice joined her song as a spiral blade emerged. Of late, it's song was no longer so discordant, and the melody of the vale rang clear from the blade, echoing her as though from far away and deep under ground.
And then... nothing. Kind had expected something to come out of it. Build up for nothing is a bit weird?
 
Yeah, I can see that I managed to make everyone unhappy here, between trying to establish threat while also not smacking ling qi too hard, and forgetting shit like domain weapons, I'm going to put the vote on hold while I rework things
Not sure if you saw my previous post addressing people's unrealistic expectations being checked Yrs, but I really don't think you have to rewrite anything. People whose complaints are directed at you don't seem to have a reasonable basis for so much salt IMO. And I've never read any other quest before so I'm not sure what's typical in QMs supplying info for voting options. But I really don't think you should sweat it, the balancing act of churning out creative, original work on schedule while also meeting the voters' demands can't be easy. I for one enjoy your writing. Please keep up the good work :smile2:
 
I concur, rewriting is not needed if the scene portrayed what the author meant to portray.

But reducing the options solely to the direct tactical consequences, I am not sure what lessons to take from the outcome here.

For example, would this be the correct read?
I seem to me that I vastly overestimated the Cloud Barbarians and Ling Qi can in fact face-roll a group of 3 lower Greens, 1 Peer Green, two dozen yellows and a hundred Reds and contest them at their own game enough that they retreat. It wasn't something I initially wanted to believe, but the facts are against me so I'll concede. It seems Ling Qi has a major qualitative advantage over Cloud Barbarians. That's good to know for the future.

There was certainly extensive damage to the village, but I doubt that was avoidable. The minor damage to Ling Qi is negligible in the face of severely injuring one of the Barbarian leaders (or worse). That the population of the village got saved by Shen Hu, using the breathing room we bought, is a major good.
So all in all, this was a rousing success even if Ling Qi doesn't see it that way.

I am still going by the assumption that complete and total victory over 100+ Raiders with extensive Green support was out of the question and will later be acknowledge as such in-universe. Thus leading to this 'rousing success' and a great outcome for the Sect.


If so, that's... completely fine.
It just means that Ling Qi is way more of a monster than I expected. Which is scary, but then, I guess I get now why people in the Sect avoid challenging her... Smart people.
 
Mmm, the thing with the votes rn is that there's sort of a choice between "Ling Qi goes after cavalry archers in the way one is always told not to do because she's angry" and "not do that (+ fluff about what will be happening assuming the battle is over)".

In this case, we very much aren't inclined to go after the cavalry archers and overextend here, and a vote which is basically "don't do that" only gives so much to engage with.

Hmm, if I were to think about meaningful choices in that context, I would ask what our options are assuming the battle appears to be over. For example, we could a) go into stealth and trail the barbarians to make sure they're actually leaving and aren't up to anything, b) stay in this village to make sure they're safe and help with clean-up, c) go to the third village to check if they need help, or d) return to our village to make sure Lan-Lan and Zhengui are alright (and the people too I guess :V).

I don't know how well that would fit into your plans, but those might generate more engagement and debate?
 
Overall i'm pretty happy with how things turned out.
Not sure i felt the threat from the barbarians here, they might have been one but were clearly determined to either make it a kite fight or not at all, at which point we can just, not play.

Would have expected Hanyi to make more of an appearance.
But other than that, it's fine.
 
One thing I'd like to point out about this vote is that Ling Qi isn't very clever, or at least good at war. This whole fight started with us dropping stealth because we were mad. We didn't take advantage of our stealth to say gank one of the greens with a surprise HC. So I can see why people are frustrated with the vote as the options aren't great. But also Ling Qi doesn't seem to think of clever things to do with her abilities. It feels like we as readers can come up with a lot more options than Ling Qi does, maybe we just need to raise her war or something?
 
I'd be fine if it were a bloodier fight tbh
For example, w. get injured a bit more, but we also catch a larger number of lower level cultivators who can't quite swing around our mist. That way you get the impression that yes, if it took longer we would eventually lose - but we'd make them pay for it in too much time and blood and they're giving up as too much trouble at this point.
 
Im not going to argue against more story, but I do agree there should be more vote options. Something like a "draw a line in the sand" where we simply hold the current state of affairs and a "search and destroy" where LQ starts trying to pick off the reds currently raiding.
 
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The overall outcome isn't going to change, I'm not going to give in and make Ling Qi trounce them, but I feel like I need to clear up what exactly is happening on all fronts and probably rework the votes, since nobody seems particularly enthused for any of the options.
As one of the complainers, the problem wasn't so much the outcome as the description of how we got to that outcome.

On the red's in particular, the problem wasn't so much that some of them got past Ling Qi while she was focused on the bigger threats but the way it happened.

Ling Qi is in the middle of a fog bank that is around 800m tall and 800m wide (400m in all directions). It is simply infeasible for 100 reds to go from right in front of her to perfectly dodging her in the time it took Ling Qi to effortlessly dodge 3 yellow scale attacks given her speed.

I'd suggest that having them be at greater range from the start (so catching up was more infeasible) or being more scattered attacking at the start. Have a big clump retreat as part of the main force with the yellows and commanders but a fair but seemingly manageable number be outside the mist range from the start. That would give a good reason for Ling Qi to chase the main body rather than the relatively small number of red bombers.

I'd then say that if you want really large numbers of Reds to be able to peel off in the way they did, you need to have the greens strat attacking seriously first and forcing Ling Qi into slowing down significantly , in order to buy more time for the reds to make the lateral moves to get out of mist range and allow them to bypass her.

Another idea would be to make the gliders slightly more sturdy* (so that a single round in the mist isn't a kill) and really emphasise the speed of the chase. Ling Qi does catch the reds in her mist, but has to choose between slowing down to ensure they go out and prusuing the main body of the force. Again it might be best to have this as her catching low numbers at a time (with the greens keeping the others ahead with support arts and cross reinforcements), so it always seems like she's only dropping a couple of weak or wounded enemies in favour of trailing the main force, rather than most of the numbers of the force getting past her in one fell swoop.


*Which could fairly easily fit with the toughness of mountain life. Make Gliders more akin to family talismans for the tribe, with many having been used and improved by multiple generations of the tribesmen as they grow to second realm.
 
One thing I'd like to point out about this vote is that Ling Qi isn't very clever, or at least good at war. This whole fight started with us dropping stealth because we were mad. We didn't take advantage of our stealth to say gank one of the greens with a surprise HC. So I can see why people are frustrated with the vote as the options aren't great. But also Ling Qi doesn't seem to think of clever things to do with her abilities. It feels like we as readers can come up with a lot more options than Ling Qi does, maybe we just need to raise her war or something?
Yeah we most likely need to raise her war.
Mmm, the thing with the votes rn is that there's sort of a choice between "Ling Qi goes after cavalry archers in the way one is always told not to do because she's angry" and "not do that (+ fluff about what will be happening assuming the battle is over)".

In this case, we very much aren't inclined to go after the cavalry archers and overextend here, and a vote which is basically "don't do that" only gives so much to engage with.

Hmm, if I were to think about meaningful choices in that context, I would ask what our options are assuming the battle appears to be over. For example, we could a) go into stealth and trail the barbarians to make sure they're actually leaving and aren't up to anything, b) stay in this village to make sure they're safe and help with clean-up, c) go to the third village to check if they need help, or d) return to our village to make sure Lan-Lan and Zhengui are alright (and the people too I guess :V).

I don't know how well that would fit into your plans, but those might generate more engagement and debate?
The option of Search and Rescue won't necessarily be boring. For one thing, we can address the concerning cold-/emptiness LQ felt (or should I say lack of feeling anything?) at seeing the civilians that had already been killed. She would probably see more of those who killed, soldiers and civvies alike, and we could see what her response is to that. While I don't particularly dislike her ice queen shtick, I'll start disliking it pretty fast if it combines with the post-Forest King arc-effect to make her a less empathetic person overall. While she isn't at Su Ling's level of empathy, she does have the capacity to feel sympathy in general. This next update could be a good opportunity for character development. She can deal with being humbled. Regardless of how she did objectively, she had higher expectations and is now pissed. We can see how she handles the reality check and how her pride is affected. And seeing the dead civilians, enemy and ally soldiers may result in the reality of warfare really hitting her.

Not enough action for people? If that's the case, keep in mind that the enemy retreat may have been a feint in which shit is about to get real. If not then she still has to check on the village she was actually assigned--I hope ZG and GX are doing okay. 😰
 
Because of the two choices we have, it's reasonable(I'd argue more reasonable) to perceive the barbarian host in the same terms as when we first arrived. It's the same risk for the same gain, only extended. Is the risk of the village being sacked by their most powerful more palatable now? It doesn't seem so to me, at least.
The choice is superficially similar at best; at first our abilities were both unknown to each other but now we each have the others' measure, and charging a force attacking a fixed place to drive them off is very different from chasing after them now that they're retreating (and can use retreat/giving ground to attire us down and build up their group techs). That you seem to ignore the additional personal risk of giving chase doesn't mean others are.

It would be better if LQ wasn't pissed off and actually thought about trying to use her superior stealth to whittle them down, but as worded it just seems like reckless overextension.

Yeah, I can see that I managed to make everyone unhappy here, between trying to establish threat while also not smacking ling qi too hard, and forgetting shit like domain weapons, I'm going to put the vote on hold while I rework things
Domain weapons are a bit of a blunder but I'm not sure a rewrite is needed at this point. There's a lot of misunderstandings all around:
  • Some people think we weren't overwhelming enough, overestimating LQ's abilites in the face of coordniated forces with strong mutual support, or misread the complex sequence of events that happened.
  • Others underestimate what our stacked layers of defense and regular practice against monsters means for LQ's ability to just charge a small army led by cultivation peers and come out with scratch damage, something that would be suicide for many of our peers.
  • Yet others are failing to understand that Ling Qi's frustration and unfulfilled stated objectives does not necessarily match the outcome on an objective/strategic layer.
These are largely problems that will go away on their own as the thread becomes more familiar with mass combat and LQ's capabilities.



Now, there are other things that could have been done better on the narrative level, but those need to be resolved on the level of arc structure and what kind of vote options we have available, and not a matter for an individual update;
  • Supposed Zhengui focus vote leads to another where the sensible (both then and in retrospect) thing to do was immediately go to a different battleground, leaving him with Xiulan.
  • Shen Hu being set up as a local defender, plausibly tying into forest king dream stuff; if the intention was for us to work together with him then the vote should've been about how we're dealing with village protection instead of if we're doing that at all or leaving it to him while we go attack them.
  • It's currently unclear what if any thematic direction for this arc is supposed to be (war? responsibilities?) it's fine if there's something that'll only be visible in hindsight though.

The current update was fine, in terms of conveying how the barbarians and how organized army groups operate it works well enough, as well as giving us an idea of the risks involved. Got us a plausible nemesis introduction too.

EDIT: for the benefit of people who might be confused about events, here's my piecing together a timeline (copied from discord):
- LQ going for immediate vicinity group, they attack to ~no effect but slow us down
- main force starts linking up with immediate vicinity, setting up a kill formation with a lightning strike we dodge
- LQ pursues the now combined forces, ignoring the reds that scatter, relying on the fact they try to avoid entering the mist
- LQ annoyed that no blood has been drawn, uses SCS to gap-close and use the aoe blast of FSS to deal damage; it gets partially blocked by one of the 2 war leaders
-- they're now in the mist though assulted by bird-shaped phantoms
- dodging like the touhou she is all that time, LQ uses hanyi to get one of the riders (probably not one of the war leaders though) out of position and traps him in Elegy
- hidden bard reveals himself, conjuring a storm area tech to contest our mist, LQ decides to get serious and hanyi shifts to aria
- LQ advances, using ENM to line up an unblockable HR on one of the 2 war leaders
- counter we survive with scratch damage but knocked back a ton, the barbarians start retreating
- end update
Things are kinda dense and confusing but like this is mass combat presumably happening very fast. Would be weird if it wasn't.
 
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I concur, rewriting is not needed if the scene portrayed what the author meant to portray.

But reducing the options solely to the direct tactical consequences, I am not sure what lessons to take from the outcome here.

For example, would this be the correct read?
I seem to me that I vastly overestimated the Cloud Barbarians and Ling Qi can in fact face-roll a group of 3 lower Greens, 1 Peer Green, two dozen yellows and a hundred Reds and contest them at their own game enough that they retreat. It wasn't something I initially wanted to believe, but the facts are against me so I'll concede. It seems Ling Qi has a major qualitative advantage over Cloud Barbarians. That's good to know for the future.

There was certainly extensive damage to the village, but I doubt that was avoidable. The minor damage to Ling Qi is negligible in the face of severely injuring one of the Barbarian leaders (or worse). That the population of the village got saved by Shen Hu, using the breathing room we bought, is a major good.
So all in all, this was a rousing success even if Ling Qi doesn't see it that way.

I am still going by the assumption that complete and total victory over 100+ Raiders with extensive Green support was out of the question and will later be acknowledge as such in-universe. Thus leading to this 'rousing success' and a great outcome for the Sect.


If so, that's... completely fine.
It just means that Ling Qi is way more of a monster than I expected. Which is scary, but then, I guess I get now why people in the Sect avoid challenging her... Smart people.
Don't cloud barbarians only do either physical xor spiritual cultivation? In which case Ling Qi is like two cloud barbarians? Then Ling Qi is fighting three physical-half greens and one weird bard.
 
[X] Search and Rescue

In the context of the binary decision we have, it's the same one now, only slightly more ambiguous.
I don't think that's even remotely true. Hitting hard and fast to force the enemy to cut their losses and retreat is very different from pursuing fleeing enemies. The Cloud Barbarians are raiders; they are here for glory and loot, not to fight to the death. I don't think this village has anything particularly valuable to the barbarians, so they probably won't be coming back and instead seek for softer targets. If we go after them, we are forcing them into a situation where they will die unless they kill us first. Unless they just scatter and flee, allowing us to easily murder anyone we catch, we are probably biting more than we can chew.
 
Thing is, given who Ling Qi is, stealth and sneak attacks should always be an option, even if not always the best one.
That said, just charging in can be written as anger and over confidence, so maybe she can learn a lesson about it.
 
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