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The Long Founding (Warhammer 40k)

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"To take a town, send a legionary. To take a city, send a squad. To take a world, send a company. To take a culture, send a Chapter."

Ultramarines's Trait could be based on that last line: "To take a culture, send a Chapter."

One problem, is that (most probably) Word Bearers have traits about this.
 
@Dlan the Wizard that is a very good idea (Assuming I don't forget like a dummy) I'll need to Remeber that next turn. Going to leave things as they are for this one though since those were the rules when I posted the update.

In less happy news I might also end up increasing the price of secondary gene-seed it let's for fun stuff but I think chimera chapters work better as a nice treat rather than the baseline.
 
@undead frog you might want to consider the UM successors having a possible negative trait that makes them more...pliable and willing to follow orders. Like good soldiers.

If they get the trait roll for what organization massive influence over them.
 
undead frog said:
Another option is them becoming rigid in thinking and getting codex dependent if you don't put 'em on a planet with a different enough culture.
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If combined with the possibility of them having the trait put onto the planet then it'll exacerbate the trait and make the planet a monoculture and transfer back to the chapter.
 
hmm personally thinking maybe going with a Loyalist descended group for sure, unsure if i want to put the Word Bearer secondary charge on em or not. Will put some thought on it.

In the mean time i have three worlds i for sure want to be at least considered. along with loyalist Legions who i feel may be good for it.

1. Equartaz

Long have we waited for the funny Horse riding Space Marines, i say we should not wait any longer, we do not have any tasks to do that would distract us.

Preferred Legions for world: Dark Angels, White Scars (Both for obvious reasons for funny horses.)

2. Weeest 2

Monkey King is good yes. In other reasons, this world itself would be a nice means of maybe getting some Genetor allies...or something

Preferred Legions for world: Iron Hands, Imperial Fists (Both are stoic and rather stern, with one needing to learn the power of Flesh and the other probably able to build up grand designs on the world proper.)

3. Ooarth

It's Ork Infested and made to resemble Terra in it's heyday, good for Moral if marines are there to keep it safe.

Preferred Legions for world: Blood Angels, Imperial Fists (I mean these two legions are the poster child's of loyalty to the Imperium and would defend that world to the best of their ability no matter what.)
 
undead frog said:
Lets all remember their true legendary trait before this gets off track.

Spawn FPS protagonist.

Or well technically the Space Marine games are more third person but still.
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Right, you know what that means, right?

Doing all Chapter events, we need the exact same Space Marine doing all the awesome deeds, even if he ends in a dreadnought. Maybe his name is Orpheus Preston so that he can be shortened to OP? Oh, and ofcourse we need this time a quote from the Space Marine.
 
I am genuinely confused on why people want to preserve The Imperial Truth so badly. Since it utterly failed on all levels. It left the people ignorant of chaos, it failed to resolve the Emperor's cult of personality, and quite frankly supports all of The Imperium's most cruel impulses.

I understand wishing to counter The Ecclesiarchy but I think we're missing the forest for the trees. Blurting the Inquisition worked because The Inquisition was uniquely awful and replaced an already existent organization.

If we wish to improve the Imperium's lot then we should be prioritizing a planet that gives the Chapter a perspective that actually pushes against the foundational cruelties of the setting.
 
Dream Logic said:
I am genuinely confused on why people want to preserve The Imperial Truth so badly. Since it utterly failed on all levels. It left the people ignorant of chaos, it failed to resolve the Emperor's cult of personality, and quite frankly supports all of The Imperium's most cruel impulses.

I understand wishing to counter The Ecclesiarchy but I think we're missing the forest for the trees. Blurting the Inquisition worked because The Inquisition was uniquely awful and replaced an already existent organization.

If we wish to improve the Imperium's lot then we should be prioritizing a planet that gives the Chapter a perspective that actually pushes against the foundational cruelties of the setting.
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We want to preserve some parts of the Imperial Truth, but it is very unlikely that we manage to preserve it unchanged, especially when the living saints. The point is making a region of space that holds onto reason and maybe regress at a slower rate than normal, at the very least.

In my mind, the best scenario is for Imperial Truth and Imperial Cult to fuse during the reforms of Sebastian Thor and create a religion that sees people's lives as the emperor's currency is the greatest misser about it. That also supports mechanicum and rouge traders in the work of regaining mankind's lost knowledge, bringing the twin hearts of Imperium closer together.
 
Dream Logic said:
SNIP.
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You make good point, and I agree with it absolutely The Imperial Truth wasn't better in the slightest, the problem is, we really don't have any other planet which ideology would be strong counter to The Ecclesiarchy.

You mentioned Atherena in you're previous post, but it was explicitly democratic in the past, it would of course influence their worldview, I'm not saying undead frog made a trap option and Atherena is now despotic and cruel regime or something, but still, it's description just doesn't paint it as strong ideological counter to The Ecclesiarchy and neither would our Chapter by making peace between feuding Forge World, at best it would just result in a Adeptus Mechanicus movement that doesn't see Human life as utterly worthless in comparison to Machine and Knowledge, such movement would help the Imperium as it spreads but again, it wouldn't be good counter to The Ecclesiarchy.

The Ecclesiarchy isn't composed solely of greedy bastards who don't even believe what they saying. For example in The recent game, The Rogue Trader, we meet high ranking member of The Imperial Cult fragment in The Koronus Expanse, Hieronymus Doloroso. This member tries to stop a mob from lynching refugees who escaped Chaos cult that taken over their planet. If you saved said refugees, he will remark how disgusted he was with the mob for trying to harm those refugees and is general painted as genuinely believer, he is humble, he doesn't like excessive wealth and generaly just want planets to take in pilgrims. Oh, he also wants to burn everyone who doesn't believe in The glorious God Emperor and kill every non-Human being for sin of existing. I didn't finish the game, so can't tell if there's some revelation about him being chaos cultist all along but considering how things like trading works in Rogue Trader and him being the faction merchant/leader for The Ecclesiarchy Drusian cult, I doubt it.

There are cults and religious movements withing The Ecclesiarchy that give alms to people and stuff, doesn't change the fact that The Imperial Cult as a whole is destructive and hampers The Imperium. I remember that in the book series "Dark Imperium" by Guy Haley, Guilliman thinks that if The Emperor stood up and proclaimed that he isn't a god, he would be burned for blasphemy by The Ecclesiarchy. Pretty much sums up the mentality of The Imperial Cult. Simply, making a less shitty, kind of nice place to live in The Imperium, wouldn't be counter to The Ecclesiarchy, you would just make, a secund Ultramar where The cults give alms to the poor and stuff and that's it, we need strong ideological counter to spread across The Imperium and only The Imperial Truth offers that. It was literally ideology made to, originally, destroy any and all religion, it's literally the only strong, ideological counter against The Ecclesiarchy we can get.
 
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I mean the Imperial Faith gave humanity access to miracles through the priests and Sisters of Battle which is very good against Chaos so they do serve an important role in the Imperium besides acting as a unifying force for the varying human cultures.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
There are cults and religious movements withing The Ecclesiarchy that give alms to people and stuff, doesn't change the fact that The Imperial Cult as a whole is destructive and hampers The Imperium. I remember that in the book series "Dark Imperium" by Guy Haley, Guilliman thinks that if The Emperor stood up and proclaimed that he isn't a god, he would be burned for blasphemy by The Ecclesiarchy. Pretty much sums up the mentality of The Imperial Cult. Simply, making a less shitty, kind of nice place to live in The Imperium, wouldn't be counter to The Ecclesiarchy, you would just make, a secund Ultramar where The cults give alms to the poor and stuff and that's it, we need strong ideological counter to spread across The Imperium and only The Imperial Truth offers that. It was literally ideology made to, originally, destroy any and all religion, it's literally the only strong, ideological counter against The Ecclesiarchy we can get.
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While I agree somewhat, what is important to know is that the Imperial Cult was made directly to highjack the Imperial Truth, which is likely to cause some issues with being a solid ideological counter to Ecclesiarchy (and that's ignoring faith being a real force that is undeniable).
As I said previously, I at least want to use the Truth to push further reforms of Sebastian Thor so that he can have a closer source material to the will of the Emperor to call upon and fuse both belief systems.

Imperial truth is objectively a lie in its interpretation of warp and of emperor, while Imperial cult is objectively a betrayal of Emperor's ideas of science and technology. The best scenario here is a new syncretic faith that is honest (mostly) in how both the emperor and the warp work while keeping the emperor's idea of restoration of the legacy of mankind.

I want this to be an example of thesis antithesis synthesis.
Thesis: Imperial truth - science alone will save us
Antithesis: Imperial cult - faith alone will save us
Synthesis: Imperial Path - by faith and science, mankind will be saved
 
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Isn't Imperial Truth that science and rationality is a must and superstition is not allowed, BUT it did not deny that Warp and Psykers are a thing but more towards Warp has dangerous beings inside that would trick humanity to believe they are gods. Which, is not exactly false and not exactly true. Chaos Gods being in reality (pun intented) a reality tumours while Eldari Gods I see as true gods because while they can be influenced by their worshippers, they are not made from pure emotions and concepts like Chaos Gods are but a solid constructs with beliefs, ideas and themes. Emperor is in weird state of yes and no on being something. At least let's be happy it is not Fantasy and we need to be wary of Gods of Law, which are on opposite spectrum in comparison to gods of Chaos but not in good way.
 
Gabriel_TFA said:
Isn't Imperial Truth that science and rationality is a must and superstition is not allowed, BUT it did not deny that Warp and Psykers are a thing but more towards Warp has dangerous beings inside that would trick humanity to believe they are gods. Which, is not exactly false and not exactly true. Chaos Gods being in reality (pun intented) a reality tumours while Eldari Gods I see as true gods because while they can be influenced by their worshippers, they are not made from pure emotions and concepts like Chaos Gods are but a solid constructs with beliefs, ideas and themes. Emperor is in weird state of yes and no on being something. At least let's be happy it is not Fantasy and we need to be wary of Gods of Law, which are on opposite spectrum in comparison to gods of Chaos but not in good way.
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It denied the existence of chaos, not warp. But in general yes.

This not exactly false not exactly true nature is why I think that keeping the flame of Imperial truth until Sebastian Thor can do his reform is very important to me so he can get closer to the truth as he was just a mortal who died early for 40k at the age of 100ish years old, he probably wasn't aware that Imperial Truth was a thing and if he did he didn't know its doctrine to adapt into his reforms
 
Gabriel_TFA said:
SNIP.
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The Imperial Truth definitely didn't deny Psykers, bruh, merely categorized them as mutants to dangerous to allow livig, with only exception being those necessary for The Imperium to function, Astropaths, Navigators, the rest was approved for stake burning.

Chaos Gods aren't anymore Gods than a extremely powerful Psyker, if we use only power as a measurement of divinity, then by that logic, unshattered C'tan are the only True Gods.

Personally, I don't see The Emperor as a God, rather I see it as bizzare case where he still feeds on the excessive power of collective consciousness despite not being a Immaterium denizen or there being in-fact, two Emperors, one on the Throne, one in The Immaterium, forming from the thought of Humanity in The Imperium of Man, and are metaphysically connected with each other on some level. The same way I categorize all the "miracles" just the excessive influence of The Ecclesiarchy, collectively manipulating The Warp, Humanity is supposed to be more psionically active over time, so it fits. Basically, if you were able to make religion that worship a giant rock and have it somewhat, gain the same influence as The Ecclesiarchy, as far as I'm concerned the result would be the same with the miracles.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
Personally, I don't see The Emperor as a God, rather I see it as bizzare case where he still feeds on the excessive power of collective consciousness despite not being a Immaterium denizen or there being in-fact, two Emperors, one on the Throne, one in The Immaterium, forming from the thought of Humanity in The Imperium of Man, and are metaphysically connected with each other on some level. The same way I categorize all the "miracles" just the excessive influence of The Ecclesiarchy, collectively manipulating The Warp, Humanity is supposed to be more psionically active over time, so it fits.
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...My guy, that is quite literally godhood, and if something happens because people just believe in it, then it is a miracle. Not to mention Living Saints being literally Big E's version of daemon princes.

There is a small chance that Big E wasn't a god before his entombment on the golden throne, but even in the last novel of the hours heresy series he during the battle against Horus started to feed of faith which is probably the biggest sign of godhood one could agree in politethisic fantasy world which 30k/40k is despite being in space.
Dlan the Wizard said:
Basically, if you were able to make religion that worship a giant rock and have it somewhat, gain the same influence as The Ecclesiarchy, as far as I'm concerned the result would be the same with the miracles.
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Yes, and before the rock would grant miracles it would gain godhood and probably personality (as long as chaos didn't ate it in the warp).
 
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