[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."
[X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone - Simple Version
[X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone - Simple Version
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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
A big difference is that a Tyrell isn't hand of the king, for now at least. Part of what made the Greens effective was that Otto as hand had been able to work on subverting King's Landing's government for a long time before the Dance started.
I looked him up on the wiki the other day, his first daughter should be getting born around now, so I don't believe he's free.
[] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."
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I think we need to lay things out for Viserys. Our concerns as heir. Not just tell him what to do. But if we have no write in options...
Sigh... I guess this one will do.
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."
At least it is presented in a more "this is a possibility" kind of way. More of a soft sell than the others. It also has the effect of at least giving Corlys help in gaining the Stepstones, keeps everyone busy fighting there for a while, will likely take a long time to negotiate, giving father at least six months to a year to grieve. And of course is the least likely of the matches to try and disinherit us. Not only because of Dornish succession laws, but because there will be little support in the realm for Dornish blood on the throne.
I also feel we should not support the Laena match, let Corlys see that he can't give us "I'll consider it" and expect us to still support him. I'll also say that I think the Alicent marriage is not as terrible as it could be in canon. We will have to stay close with her in that case, and make sure our brothers stay close with us as well.
@Teen Spirit I just want to make sure that we are not going to try and hard sell any of these options (other then the "Not Alicent" one as that is a rather emotional appeal). I feel like maintaining our relationship with our father is more important than a win on this issue.
If I could vote for a one line write in... it'd probably be something about the need for a royal progress to ensure all of Westeros remembers that we have a dragon.
[] In this case, perhaps it would be best to for me to have a royal progress, so that Westeros can see my dragon and know that your heir is strong.
I think we are going to have to accept that the "gain a seat on the council" is going to be a long process. A royal progress would help us make allies, and not be so tied down in Westeros.
[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
The obvious solution to the Alicent conundrum, she marries Laenor instead of us. (JK)
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
They could in fact work as each other's beards, yes. It just would leave us with the problem how to bind the Velaryons to us.
- Location
- Israel
I mean, if Laena ends up marrying Daemon in half a decade, marrying our heir to one of their kids binds both loose ends. Not sure I'd support it if it happens, but it's an option.
Would be interesting to see a Westeros that has a much easier time holding the Stepstones with the help of Dorne. Instead of the off and on, heavily contested area it was in canon.
Also laying the foundations of capturing the last Kingdom within our own reign, which would put us down in history as not just a capable queen, but a great Queen.
The claiming Dorne goal did seem way cooler than the Romantic goal anyway.
Also laying the foundations of capturing the last Kingdom within our own reign, which would put us down in history as not just a capable queen, but a great Queen.
The claiming Dorne goal did seem way cooler than the Romantic goal anyway.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Look, inter-realm marriages happen. Which is also why I don't think the idea entire infeasible. Marrying a consort from a foreign kingdom is just something that happens. But at the same time that means just having an inter-realm marriage will not bring about union. Rather it is an absolutely standard way of doing diplomacy, nothing else. A marriage will not make Viserys or us Daeron.
Also, I don't think Dorne would be interested in the Stepstones being controlled by us or the Triarchy.
Also, I don't think Dorne would be interested in the Stepstones being controlled by us or the Triarchy.
The trouble with the Dornish is that it might make the Baratheons and the Stormlands angry. If Viserys does agree to a Dornish match, then we would need to visit the Stormlands with our dragon, show off that Viserys still has power (us) and also make nice with Borros and the marcher lords so that they look forward to our reign instead of feeling that they need to rebel now.
The line of Saera is also available. To everyone else it's history, but Viserys would still remember Saera and the trouble she caused. A trip to Volantis might be useful to entice some of her children and grandchildren back home. It'd be dangerous to let any of the men near a dragon, but possibly some of the girls could be given a dragon and married to a loyal house. I don't think I'd agree to giving them Silverwing or Vermothor though (too much symbolism).
It'd depend on the situation of course. If we go to Volantis and met a cousin our age who was facing an unwanted marriage and could use someone to whisk her away on a dragon to a forgotten life as a semi-princess, well, she'd have a lot of reason to be grateful to us.
Viserys is also weak to family. He might approve of us rescuing a granddaughter of Saera in distress.
There are also other reasons to visit Volantis. A possible ally against the Triarchy, to learn more about Valyrian histories, maybe learn some magic (if we are going to be Visenya).
Perhaps that's how we ought to gain our position on the small council. First a royal progress of the realm, and then a tour of Volantis and Braavos. We'd have insights into what major players are thinking, kind of make us suitable for Master of Whispers.
Is it? I had no intention of fighting in the Stespstones. I thought it was to keep Daemon busy far away from home, and maybe keep Corlys busy too. That and the major benefit to trade which benefits Westeros as a whole.
Sounds like the key is Laena. Assuming father rejects her, perhaps we can take her under our wing. Only two years younger than us, she probably looks up to us. Make her our friend, invite her to go with us on adventures (fly around with us on the progress, visit Volantis).
Also, was it just me, or did Rhaenys seem interested in our proposal more than Corlys? She seemed to like the idea. I doubt she's going to break ranks with him, but she could be an advocate within the Velaryon family.
If we were the same age as book Rhaenyra (eight) maybe he would be a possible match. But not possible for us at 14 years old. Plus, he ends up in love with Arry Norrey.
Umm... I think the idea was for Viserys to marry from a lower family so that they are not a threat to us. We want to marry someone powerful who will support our inheritance. And the Freys are not too bad for that, they have more men than the Tullys.
Yeah, Jason is not a good match, but Tyland would be. Have to admit it even if I doubt we would like him. He also proved to be a good Hand.
Hard to say with how the shows have messed everything up. But in the books, Cassandra (Borros oldest child) had not yet flowered, which means she's likely no older than 14 in 129 AC. Which would make her born no earlier than 115 AC. In the books Aemma Arryn died in 105 AC, but in the show... I guess she lived until 111 AC? Although that does not fit in how old Aemond is compared to Cassandra...
Well, either way, it's actually possible, maybe even probable, that Borros is currently unmarried. He might be betrothed though.
No matter what it's important for us to tour the realm anyway, and particularly important for us to make Borros feel remembered and appreciated by his Targaryen family.
Dorne would prefer to control the Stepstones themselves, but lack the power. Right now they prefer the Triarchy to us, in more of a "lesser evil" attitude. But if they had a marriage alliance it would change things significantly. Suddenly Kings Landing controlling the Stepstones means preferential treatment for Dornish shipping too.
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- Location
- Germany
Setting up a kingdom of the Stepstones that is independent, but allied to both the Seven Kingdoms and Dorne, might work. I'll admit that a Targaryen-Martell cadet branch would work well for that.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
No it wouldn't mean that. Dorne is not part of the 7K. Unbent, unbowed, unbroken. Which is exactly why they wouldn't want us controlling the Stepstones.
The central issue is that everyone would ideally want control for themselves, but failing that they all would prefer the Stepstones to remain uncontrolled rather than any other side getting it. They would absolutely prefer pirate infested Stepstones over possible foreign tolls and blockades and the like.
Oh hey, there's something to do with our father's other kids. Not sure if it should be a whole independent kingdom thing, but a place like Dragonstone for extra Targ kids that is more favorable to Dorne could be cool. Maybe divvy up the multiple islands between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms, with our dad's kids getting Bloodstone.
Honestly feels like it would be a win over pirates, as it would make trade between Westeros and Dorne much easier. Right now I have no idea how they actually survive as well as they do.
They are enemies of their immediate neighbors, the Reach and Stormlands, they had most of their castles burnt to the ground by Visenya, and they live in a desert. Easier trade with the rest of Westeros would be a huge economic boon for them.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
"Ally with Dorne against the Triarchy!"
Uhh, how about the opposite?
[X] "Perhaps a bride from Essos?"
Ally with the Triarchy against Dorne. The descendants of Valyria against the last remnants of the Rh*ynar.
Uhh, how about the opposite?
[X] "Perhaps a bride from Essos?"
Ally with the Triarchy against Dorne. The descendants of Valyria against the last remnants of the Rh*ynar.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The only people who ever managed to bring down dragons from the ground.
As primary Dorne shiller, how dare you.
However as peddler of underdogs, I love the energy.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Mostly and historically, by understanding guerilla tactics.
And a 7K-controlled Stepstones will be a much greater hinderance for them than pirates controlled. Any power controlling the Stepstones would control all shipping through it, making it almost certainly a worse deal for everyone else than pirates around.
(Which also means t hat if we control the Stepstones, we might not have the Triarchy arrayed against us, but the other trading cities as well. The Stepstones control the entrance to the Narrow Sea, so this has the potential to cut off Braavos and Pentos, who would probably not like that. Neither would Volantis)
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- Location
- Israel
Dorne survives thanks to plot armor, luck and GRRM not really understanding how medieval economics or guerilla warfare works.
It works for the backstory needed for GoT to work, less if you try to make it realistic.
No I mean like where do they get all their food (or other resources) in the desert? Do they not trade for any food from the Reach or Riverlands during hard winters? Besides wine, what do they export? How did they hold onto their peasant's allegiances when Visenya went on a crusade against the noble houses, when in places like Kingslanding peasants are a few days of hunger way from rioting completely.
I don't know, it's always felt like they kind of handwaved it everytime it was mentioned how they just "hid in the desert sands". Logistically I don't know how they function when similarly harsh places like the North half-die everytime winter comes around, even though they can actually trade with the rest of Westeros.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Not gonna lie, that is an odd question.
Because like... just as every region of Westeros, they will only have so many people as they can support agriculturally. Yes, it is mostly desert - and as a result, Dorne has in fact the lowest population of all Seven Kingdoms. Well, of all "proper" 7K, not counting the Iron Isles here. That makes perfect sense, actually.
Also, it is not only desert. Dorne is mountains, desert, and coastline. They will have agriculture at the coast and at what arable land t here is in the Dornish mountains, and even the desert has the Greenblood river, which probably provides a strip of arable land similar to the Nile (but without the Nile's super-fertility bonus), plus isolated oases.
Also, Dorne doesn't experience winter, while everyone north of them has years of snow - during those years, they might even be a net food exporter.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I mislike straight-up counseling Viserys against marrying Alicent, for two reasons. First, it's not at all clear that she's been mooted to the King as an option, and if she hasn't I don't want to be the one to put the idea in his head even if our stated position is against the match. Second, why did we bother researching alternatives if we weren't going to propose one?
I take the point that the only power broker besides the King we've managed not to totally alienate is Hightower (who finds us mercurial but capable), which inclines me to the Tyrell match -- because I buy the argument that if we can play coy about our role in arranging it, it arrays Otto further behind us as a check to his domestic rivals. Green Rhaenyra, let's go.
[x] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
I take the point that the only power broker besides the King we've managed not to totally alienate is Hightower (who finds us mercurial but capable), which inclines me to the Tyrell match -- because I buy the argument that if we can play coy about our role in arranging it, it arrays Otto further behind us as a check to his domestic rivals. Green Rhaenyra, let's go.
[x] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."