I'd imagine that, depending on what you call the ground, that war is more about sensible decision to not leave a giant revolutionary bonfire on our borders alone. More, propaganda to conscripts might very well include passages about saving poor Syffrynites from the deprivations of religious and revolutionary fanatics.
Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization
Maybe yes, maybe no. I wouldn't be too suprised if we strangled imperialism in the crib. Too many actual powers exist spread out over the map. I think we are jumping right into sphereing and trade wars.
Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
- Location
- CET
This isn't "The Africans were lazy, therefor outside powers were forced to use forced labor to get things done in the region." This is "The Africans were not interested in a system they didn't agree with or felt a particular need for, therefor outside powers were forced to resort to forced labor to get things done in the region."
The core of the "issue" is that imperialism requires a willing workforce in the area if you want to avoid forced labor.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Wouldn't using local big-man as proxy avoid that issue? Like it was used to acquire slaves back in sail age.
Eh, complicated. Europeans tended to sorta just... Gloss over the complexities of tribal politics and power dynamics. The "Big Man" was frequently not all that big really. If you actually wanted to work within the system the natives had used for centuries it would have been complex.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
If the situation there is analogous to OTL, the southern Greater Khem-ites (God, that's an ungainly demonym) are also going to resent the northern Khemetri for past slave raids and a tradition of disdain, for lack of a better word. If the Khemetri try to conquer south, then yeah, it's going to end very badly. OTL, the ethnic tensions there were strong enough to eventually rip Sudan in half.
One of the ironies of African colonialism is that European conquerors installed a Big Man in peoples that had absolutely no history of Big Men, which probably helped contribute to the atmosphere of authoritarianism pervading the continent (thanks, imperialism). Occasionally, the reason these tribes had no history of Big Men was because the Europeans had just created the tribes out of thin air to make administration easier. One chief from what is now Zambia remarked that "my people were not Soli until 1937, when the [District Comissioner] told us we were".
[X] [Needle] Yes - Practical Breechloading Rifles and Universal Rifling Complete immediately, elite units begin fielding the weapon in small numbers immediately, other military RP gains suppressed for the round
[X] [War] Tear their heart out (Punch through to the sea)
[X] [War] Tear their heart out (Punch through to the sea)
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Which is why we must prop up a Super Zulu in Southern Not!Africa to prevent any imperialists from installing colonies there.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I am amused that once again people are going for the moral thing of freeing an ally over putting the enemy down, again.
The majority of the thread doesn't learn does it?
The majority of the thread doesn't learn does it?
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
A would-be-ally and bigger grudge.
Do explain what you'd rather do. I suspect it'll be a bad explanation that doesn't consider the fact we can't just conquer the place ourselves and expect nobody to complain, but give it your best.
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Nationalism foreclose the possibility of conquest.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Doesn't explain why people are voting to not kill them, we don't need to take land in any option.
Ripping out heart is the best move.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Gibraltar comes to mind. But that's as far as I think Khem and us should push the Hex if at all. It'll probably cause problems, but the worth- the worth is so damn real. It should be sparsely populated and easy for the Khem to administrate, and with Vortuga taking a swing at them they might want to let it go.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
There will be a peace conference eventually and we can split the land back into their original spread, or close approximate. Not vassals but allied minor states.
They are dying in all the options. Ripping out heart is the easiest but leaves nobody positioned to be in charge, basically guarantees future problems. Getting Beh free first leaves them in charge and probably grateful. Killing everybody is just pointless.
Not really, leaving Beh in charge is still a risk. Their government might be happy, but if they get extra land as a result of the peace conference (likely) the people living in the country won't be. Beh's a democratic government and a huge portion of the population, from Ochur and from the former North Tortun Coalition are going to remember that we've stomped on them three times in a row. Give it a generation or two and the hostile population could potentially turn the government hostile to us as well. That was explicitly noted as a risk of us propping up Beh over the burned out remnants of the Tortun states.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Their are 3 options,
Kill them all and let god sort them out option (Will make them hate us forever and ever)
The focuse or freeing ally (lets the people who are leading this revolt a good chance at not getting put down)
Go to the source of this mess and pacific the entire thing (what everyone outside of our enemies happy and ensures the they don't get to resist the peace options we want to enforce)
So looking at the happiness rules we are very likely to have SoL 10+ and consciousness 3 next round.
Pollution has the following effects.
Our happiness will be 6 + ((SoL-1)-Consciousness)/2 for SoL>consciousness.
Pollution reduces our effective SoL by 1 for happiness.
We have 6(12) Sol currently and 3 consciousness (assuming concon bleeds off all temp consciousness)
Our happiness will likely be between 7 (6 SoL) and 9 (12 SoL) Happiness.
Every 2 points of consciousness decreases our happiness by 1 until we get lower than 6.
So, assuming we can maintain 9 temp SoL (std decay to base), we will be able to support 6 effective consciousness and be at happiness 7.
We can sustain 6 points of pollution and maintain happiness 7. We could ERDI 2 times and get +4 IC and +6 pollution and end up OK to Gather Support for a ton of PW. If we can get effective 11 temp SoL we can support another ERDI for +6 IC/+9 Pollution and be OK happinesswise.
Strange things I note. Happiness 9 and 10 are self reinforcing. They decrease consciousness and thus are easier to maintain than they are to get in the first place.
If we are at 9 happiness, pleasing the conservitives will allow us to STAY at 10 happiness.
Pollution has the following effects.
- 1st point of Pollution decreases the effect of SoL on Happiness by 1
- Every even point Pollution gives a point of temp Consciousness while present (1 at 2, 2 at 4, 3 at 6, etc.)
- 3rd point of Pollution and above impacts population growth (currently tracked but not shown to the players)
- 5th point of Pollution and above adds half Pollution score (round up) to certain Science research projects
Our happiness will be 6 + ((SoL-1)-Consciousness)/2 for SoL>consciousness.
Pollution reduces our effective SoL by 1 for happiness.
We have 6(12) Sol currently and 3 consciousness (assuming concon bleeds off all temp consciousness)
Our happiness will likely be between 7 (6 SoL) and 9 (12 SoL) Happiness.
Every 2 points of consciousness decreases our happiness by 1 until we get lower than 6.
So, assuming we can maintain 9 temp SoL (std decay to base), we will be able to support 6 effective consciousness and be at happiness 7.
We can sustain 6 points of pollution and maintain happiness 7. We could ERDI 2 times and get +4 IC and +6 pollution and end up OK to Gather Support for a ton of PW. If we can get effective 11 temp SoL we can support another ERDI for +6 IC/+9 Pollution and be OK happinesswise.
Strange things I note. Happiness 9 and 10 are self reinforcing. They decrease consciousness and thus are easier to maintain than they are to get in the first place.
If we are at 9 happiness, pleasing the conservitives will allow us to STAY at 10 happiness.
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Well yeah but us choosing to fight this people at all guaranteed whatever Tortun state would arise would always have people who hate us. With Beh we a least have an edge getting some of that state to not hate us.
Fact is the winning move for us was most likely not fighting and leaving this dudes to collapse on their own time, but we fought. Now we need to avoid getting a huge grudge.
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- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Right, just like ensuring leaders friendly to the US in the middle east leads to the people in the middle east loving America right?
/s
No, but that's because the US screwed it up tremendously. We're neighbors with this people, means we're less likely to fuck it up. It's also the only thing we can do, we literally have no choice but to try to mitigate this now that we chose to fight, and of the three options we're picking the one that might succeed at it.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
It's more like who gets targeted first and most intensely by the grudge holders. Sketch would happily fund those people i'd imagine.