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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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LuciDreamer said:
All this talk of the UPM brings up an interesting conundrum. Do you think that this timeline's version of the American Civil War will occur?

I mean, its not an inevitability... but if the UPM practices slavery and is, in fact, a liberal republic, then that contradiction is bound to cause internal problems sooner or later, particularly if the culture dichotomy between North and South is just as extreme as IOTL. That's just speculation, though.
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Well, considering this quote:
Academia Nut said:
The bulk of slavery was in Hespranxer and Vortuga territories, but there is some degree of slavery in the UFP. Unless there is a sudden surge in demand for cheap agricultural labour, it will probably fade in a generation or two.
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And the fact that the UPM just bought some Hex colonies...
 
Citino said:
Problem is that this would sour relations between us and the UPM, and doesn't guarantee that they would be able to hold on against the UPM. Conquest is fair game in this time period, so saying that we recognize their control over that land isn't too much of a barrier. And if the UPM do succeed in their conquests, it would leave us with an unfriendly great power that could mess with a lot of our trade and diplomacy if it wished, not to mention becoming a fearsome foe in the future.
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At that point, Nohon and UPM would have signed a Peace Treaty of some sort, and we obviously say that as Nohon has sole claim to those territories, they can obviously transfer that claim to another nation if for whatever reason they so desire.

That said, yeah, it's going to very much depend on how things develop over time. For all we know, we allied with the UPM to assist us with battling Nohon, so when the treaty is signed giving us control over the Kyberian coastline, Nohon also transfers it's Mahaxian colonies to the UPM.
 
LuciDreamer said:
All this talk of the UPM brings up an interesting conundrum. Do you think that this timeline's version of the American Civil War will occur?

I mean, its not an inevitability... but if the UPM practices slavery and is, in fact, a liberal republic, then that contradiction is bound to cause internal problems sooner or later, particularly if the culture dichotomy between North and South is just as extreme as IOTL. That's just speculation, though.
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Other countries managed to get rid of slavery in less violent ways.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Other countries managed to get rid of slavery in less violent ways.
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Slavery in the US is a pretty weird thing. There were a ton of times that the US almost stopped slavery on it's own, but then something would happen to bring it right back. Like, you'd have people start pushing for relaxing some of the restrictions on slaves, only for a horribly timed slave rebellion to spawn and erase all thoughts of that. Or the economic benefits would seem to be too small to justify slavery, only for some new invention to boost demand for cheap agriculture.

It's kind of sad, and the UPM could certainly avoid that fate if they can avoid the same problems that cropped up in the US.

However, recent events will almost certainly make that harder.

The UPM just bought slaveholding colonies from the Hex, likely with some sort of assurances about keeping cultural traditions or something. This is a pretty strong cultural divide that is only going to be made worse as the non-slave northern colonies grow. It will only be made worse with expansion, as the issue of slavery for the north was always about restriction, while for the south it was about survival of their institutions.

And if the cotton gin gets invented soon, which is fairly likely, then we are going to see an increased demand for southern cotton.

The only good thing I can see is that the Khem got in on the cotton growing early. This should reduce demand for UPM's cotton, and even if it still increases slavery, the south UPM might think twice about rebellion.

A large part of the southern strategy was to use its role as THE cotton producer for Europe to force Britain and some other European powers to recognize them, and either intervene or at least pressure the Union to lift its blockade. The assumption was that southern cotton was too vital to the European powers, so they couldn't allow for production to be halted.

This, of course, was completely wrong, as the Europeans, while annoyed at the disruption, did not intervene, and instead started Indian and Egyptian cotton production to replace it (a disaster for the post-war south, as it was unable to make any money to recover in the aftermath of the war due to the now flooded market, and thus had great difficulty in rebuilding).

It also made the mistake of assuming that the Europeans wouldn't care about the slavery issue, which was also wrong, and is considered one of, if not the main reason for Britain not intervening, as while many of the leaders were, in fact, pro Confederacy, the lower classes would have nearly revolted had they supported a slave state. And without British intervention, the French wouldn't do so, nor any other nation.

Tl;dr It's likely that, given current trends, the UPM will have a civil war.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Manget on Mar 8, 2018 at 5:46 AM, finished with 1816 posts and 63 votes.
  • [x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
    ... and 9 more.
    [X] Plan Constitution
    -[X] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
    -[X] Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
    [x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
    -[x][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
    -[x][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory - 0 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
    -[x][Agenda] Military Reform - 2 PW, -2 Temp Armies, EITHER accelerate military research for next doctrinal set OR implement doctrine)
    [X][Agenda] 1808 Industry
    -[X][Agenda] Develop Industry
    -[X][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention
    [X][Agenda] 1808 Rebuilding
    -[X][Agenda] Develop Industry
    -[X][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory
    -[X][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention
    [X] Plan Constitution & Diplomancy
    -[X]Diplomatic Outreach -2 PW: +1 Trust, -3 Temp Trust (Hespranxer & Sketch)
    -[X] Build Political Support -1 PW + Happiness >7: +2 PW
    -[X] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
    -[X] Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
    [x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
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Citino said:
This, of course, was completely wrong, as the Europeans, while annoyed at the disruption, did not intervene, and instead started Indian and Egyptian cotton production to replace it (a disaster for the post-war south, as it was unable to make any money to recover in the aftermath of the war due to the now flooded market, and thus had great difficulty in rebuilding).
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Yeah, it's one of the more interesting examples of shooting yourselves in the foot.
 
I want to tag all of the other voters and ask them to vote with the bandwagon. It's so crucial for this vote, since 1 PW could be the difference that gives us an amazing Constitution.
 
Legion0047 said:
Is >90% needed?
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I would assume so. It needs to be overwhelming enough that IC people would easily gain strong support.

Like, considering the alternative plans, the 17.5 percent would probably represent the reactionary revolutionaries (Constitution and Army NOW!) and the guilds or other industrial factions (we need more production and jobs, ASAP!). They would be enough to be a pretty impressive power block which could force the government to burn political will keeping them in check.
 
There are only 3 plans in the running now, and I'm using 'in the running' loosely here.

Cornuthaum which is... basically going to win.
Constitution which is just Cornuthaum without the military reform
1808 Industry which swaps Kyberia for developing industry and lacks military reform.

@gutza1 Has a plan, but it's invalid, or should be, seeing as it spends a PW on Build Political Support, but we are under 7 Happiness, so it doesn't actually generate any PW
 
[X] Plan Constitution

I think pushing for military reform as well during the forming of a constitution might be bad, too many changes at once.
It might be good on the other hand, immediately have a constitution that makes sense with the current military structure, but i just don't really know.
Only voting for this since it has my personal favor and I'm quite sure majority bonus is still valid.
 
It's not that I want to start military reform on same turn as constitution, but this is the only plan with any sort of dipo action. We were rather tunnel vision before.
 
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