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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Cerillian said:
Status of the Guilds? Status Quo: Crown Sponsorship
[] [Guilds] 6 PW - Provide no constitutional protections (-2 Temp Happiness, -1 SoL, -1 Active Development)
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We can't do that yet dude. We're in the middle of a military reform. Taking away a development is shooting oracles in the foot and halving our progress.

It's not nice. But we can't set up the breaking of the Guilds, reform the military and create a constitution in one turn. Not without leaving ourselves open to Tortun.
 
[X] Plan: A Simple Constitution
-[X] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[X] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
-[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
-[X] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[X] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
-[X] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)

[X] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

Tried to balance what we could afford here with what we need.
Taking maximum action against the guilds is sadly too expensive right now, but I want to spend some PW to make things easier in the future.

Edit: Took as much +PW options as I could to make the constitution popular.
 
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McLuvin said:
We can't do that yet dude. We're in the middle of a military reform. Taking away a development is shooting oracles in the foot and halving our progress.

It's not nice. But we can't set up the breaking of the Guilds, reform the military and create a constitution in one turn. Not without leaving ourselves open to Tortun.
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I think we need to wait until not! Napoleon is defeated yet to afford a social hit of this scale.

The guild reprisals are truly hard and powerful, potentially disastrous for us in the middle of potential war.
[x] Plan: Basis
 
McLuvin said:
[x] Plan: Basis
[x] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
[x] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
[x] [Officers] 2 PW - Universal
[x] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
[x] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
[x] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
[x] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad
[x] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
[x] [Guilds] 0 PW - Crown Sponsorship
[x] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

Okay so the focus here is thusly. We appease the common masses, and make it easier for the middle class by a notable margin. We can't break the Guilds yet, but we haven't made them impossible to remove either.

This plan focuses on rousing the people and also fixing the army. An academy and Unkversal officers should do very nicely. And officers can become another stepping stone for the middle class.

This is a pragmatic plan. Built to rally for the inevitable future war. Yet at the same time it gives good, strong rights to our people, and opens up many door for the middle class and creates the basis for a better, more liberal, future
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I think you need to put a dash in front of the items in your plan for it to be formatted correctly, like so:

[] Plan: Basis
-[] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Officers] 2 PW - Universal
-[] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
-[] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad
-[] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Guilds] 0 PW - Crown Sponsorship
-[] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)
 
[X] Plan Have you voted today citizen?
-[X] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[X] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Franchise] 1 PW - All titles
-[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
-[X] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[X] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Assembly] 0 PW - Restricted
-[X] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

This plan leaves us with 1 political points to do patch up after we have opened a flood gate of changes.

Summary!
  • Cost 7 Political Point
  • Net 0 change in happiness
  • Gives Lower nobles and upper freemen direct routes to power, beginning the power shift from upper class to lower upper class and middle class.
  • Give Crown most control over state actions as well as power to curtail dangerous speeches and thoughts.
  • Give Free Internal Movement
  • Give Royal Military Academy
  • Give 1 unused political point for next round

 
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[X] Plan Boiling A Frog
-[X] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[X] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
-[X] [Officers] 2 PW - Universal
-[X] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[X] [Movement] 1 PW - Restricted (Internal Borders)
-[X] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
-[X] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

10 - 3 = 7

Give both upper and lower advisory power, which isn't that much but it can be expanded later.
Give landed only positions in higher government to keep people happy & yet expand the range of people who can do it.
Allow universal officer/admin positions to begin the infiltration of our ranks by commoners.
Let anyone with money own land, hopefully thus becoming landed.
Restricted to internal borders because we don't want all of our peasants flooding the city as we're trying to settle Kyberia. Hopefully they can still acquire passes so that they can move into Kyberia, though?
Limited Assembly because broad might result in riots.
Crown-Approved Only because I'm fond of government propaganda and silencing the proletariat.
Royal Military Academy because military technology is good. And also because I hate Generic Academies.
 
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[] Plan Only Government Oppression Allowed
-[] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
-[] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
-[] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Assembly] 0 PW - Restricted
-[] [Press] 0 PW - Crown Only
-[] [Guilds] 6 PW - Provide no constitutional protections (-2 Temp Happiness, -1 SoL, -1 Active Development)
-[X] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

Okay, so I have a few goals with this:

1. BREAK THE GUILDS
2. BREAK FEUDALISM
3. allow merit-based promotions in the military-ish
4. maintain Happiness, because jesus christ

(note that while we lose one point of Active Development, I remain unconvinced that the raw number matters so much as breaking the guilds here).

Really, what I'm more concerned with is that if we put off breaking the guilds for later, when the guilds have been enshrined into the constitution that breaking them gets much much more difficult.
 
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Cornuthaum's Constitutional Convention
(Now with 250% More Ritual Fistfights During And After Debates.)​
[x] Cornuthaum's Constitutional Convention Cvote 1809
-[x] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[x] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[x] [Franchise] 1 PW - All titles
-[x] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
-[x] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[x] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[x] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
-[x] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[x] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[x] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)

AND HERE'S WHY:

What powers shall be invested in the Upper House? Current Status Quo: Advisory
[] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
On review with the rest of the thread, I have changed this to Advisory roles rather than the power of Veto. This is a compromise for PW in order to be able to fund the transformation of the military and the industry ASAP.

Should there be a Lower House and what should it do? Current Status Quo: None (Cannot be stronger than the Upper House this Constitution)
[] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
Get them used to advising the king and we will be able to revise this in, say, ten turns and further democratize.

Who has the right to vote or serve in a higher government roles? Current Status Quo: Upper Nobility
[] [Franchise] 1 PW - All titles
A compromise. I would dearly love the poll tax here - so that anyone who can pay for it can serve in the government- but here, too, we can bestow lifetime, non-inheritable titles to extraordinary civil servants of common birth to allow them to serve in the government at every level.

Who may be an officer in the army or in other administrative functions? Current Status Quo: Noble Only
[] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
We can literally create an entire order of awards that bestows a lifetime, non-inheritable title of lesser nobility (akin to the old HRE Reichsritter) on those who show great potential but are barred from true greatness in service by dint of their common birth.

Who may own land? Status Quo: Noble Only
[] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
You know what you need for independent factories? Land.
You know who can buy that land? The people who would put factories on it (or just the wealthy parts of the third estate in general).

What about freedom of movement? Status Quo: Restricted (Serf)
[] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
Okay. Do you see Kyberia? All that land? ALL that land? We want people to go and settle it. On their own, without us having to spend for-fucking-ever and heaps of money to do it. This is a crucial part of that. It will also be a very strong draw for immigration and allows us to pass a Homesteading act of our own.

Freedom of assembly? Status Quo: Restricted
[] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
Limited rights to Assembly will, perhaps, let people express themselves *before* we get a Consciousness flashpoint, God willing.

Freedom of the press? Status Quo: Crown Only
[] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
Metternich Austria did this, and it worked out reasonably well. This means we will be able to relax Crown censorship in 20-30 years if things go well, or double that if they don't.

Status of the Guilds? Status Quo: Crown Sponsorship
[] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
Ho ho ho no go fuck yourself, guild-kun. This sends a strong message about what we intend to do with them in the future- but doesn't outright declare war on the wealthy parts of the third estate.

---

There is one final question that is not part of the Constitutional Convention but rather has to do with the Military Reforms
Make a Royal Military Academy?
[] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)
After changing the Upper House option, freeing up PW, this became a no-brainer. Gib delicious military. Russia is fite.
 
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[X] Plan: A Simple Constitution
-[X] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
-[X] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
-[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
-[X] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
-[X] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
-[X] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)

[X] [Academy] 1 PW - Yes (Generic Academy I becomes Royal Military Academy, increasing RP generation for Military Techs)
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
(note that while we lose one point of Active Development, I remain unconvinced that the raw number matters so much as breaking the guilds here).
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I don't think losing the Active Development is actually a cost - I'm pretty sure that's just matching the SoL decrease, since increasing SoL costs IC, and increasing IC increases Active Development. It's like the old Econ Expansion system only in reverse - our "Development Expansion," if you will, is the difference between our Active & Maximum Development. So -1 Active Development just means we're getting "refunded" for the SoL decrease.
 
As a reminder, we have 2 days to think up a plan. May I suggest we do not get too vote happy?

At the very least, discuss options before adding 'X's
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
BREAK THE OURSELVES
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Because that's what happens if we don't finish the military reforms faster than Tortun can fix their economy.

And considering doing this cuts the speed of the reforms in half as the Guild throw a shitfit (which doesn't make sense as it's the academies doing the research but whatever) that greatly reduces our chance of continuing our existence.
 
Wiadi said:
@Academia Nut will this vote be in plan format or just tallied by task?
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It's pretty much going to have to be by plan.

Wiadi said:
@Academia Nut another question: what exactly does "[] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles" entail?
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You can only be an officer if you are a noble, but there are a bunch of relatively easily available titles that can be handed out based on perceived merit.

Malevolo said:
we are under truce with the tortun?
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For the rest of this turn (until 1812) you are.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Cornuthaum's Constitutional Convention
(Now with 250% More Ritual Fistfights During And After Debates.)

What powers shall be invested in the Upper House? Current Status Quo: Advisory
[x] [UH] 1 PW - Veto
It's not going to be the greatest, but! It is a compromise with the nobility, throwing them a significant bone - the ability to veto royal decrees! - in exchange for them not screwing with us over the rest of the reforms, particular lifetime titular grants to cycle commoners into the government.

Should there be a Lower House and what should it do? Current Status Quo: None (Cannot be stronger than the Upper House this Constitution)
[x] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
Get them used to advising the king and we will be able to revise this in, say, ten turns and further democratize.

Who has the right to vote or serve in a higher government roles? Current Status Quo: Upper Nobility
[x] [Franchise] 1 PW - All titles
A compromise. I would dearly love the poll tax here - so that anyone who can pay for it can serve in the government- but here, too, we can bestow lifetime, non-inheritable titles to extraordinary civil servants of common birth to allow them to serve in the government at every level.

Who may be an officer in the army or in other administrative functions? Current Status Quo: Noble Only
[x] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
We can literally create an entire order of awards that bestows a lifetime, non-inheritable title of lesser nobility (akin to the old HRE Reichsritter) on those who show great potential but are barred from true greatness in service by dint of their common birth.

Who may own land? Status Quo: Noble Only
[x] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money
You know what you need for independent factories? Land.
You know who can buy that land? The people who would put factories on it (or just the wealthy parts of the third estate in general).

What about freedom of movement? Status Quo: Restricted (Serf)
[x] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)
Okay. Do you see Kyberia? All that land? ALL that land? We want people to go and settle it. On their own, without us having to spend for-fucking-ever and heaps of money to do it. This is a crucial part of that. It will also be a very strong draw for immigration and allows us to pass a Homesteading act of our own.

Freedom of assembly? Status Quo: Restricted
[x] [Assembly] 0 PW - Restricted
A necessary sacrifice: Neither us, nor our people, are ready for actual democracy yet, and this is probably one of those areas where shaving off PW is painful but survivable - and it doesn't get in the way of the industrialization. This will be something we must change for the next constitutional convention (which we should have in 5-6 turns).

Freedom of the press? Status Quo: Crown Only
[x] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
Metternich Austria did this, and it worked out reasonably well. This means we will be able to relax Crown censorship in 20-30 years if things go well, or double that if they don't.

Status of the Guilds? Status Quo: Crown Sponsorship
[x] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
Ho ho ho no go fuck yourself, guild-kun. This sends a strong message about what we intend to do with them in the future- but doesn't outright declare war on the wealthy parts of the third estate.

---

There is one final question that is not part of the Constitutional Convention but rather has to do with the Military Reforms
Make a Royal Military Academy?
[x] [Academy] 0 PW - No
We do not have the PW for it. And this is something we can do by bequest after the Hohozyn Wars.
​
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While AN didn't actually clarify whether or not this was supposed to be a plan vote before going offline, it looks like people are mostly voting as though it is, so you should probably make this a plan rather than just individual votes?

EDIT: Ninja'd by AN, it is indeed in plan format.
McLuvin said:
And considering doing this cuts the speed of the reforms in half as the Guild throw a shitfit (which doesn't make sense as it's the academies doing the research but whatever) that greatly reduces our chance of continuing our existence.
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Wait, what the fuck is your source on it halving our research speed? All it costs us is Happiness & SoL, neither of which contribute to research AFAIK.
 
McLuvin said:
Because that's what happens if we don't finish the military reforms faster than Tortun can fix their economy.

And considering doing this cuts the speed of the reforms in half as the Guild throw a shitfit (which doesn't make sense as it's the academies doing the research but whatever) that greatly reduces our chance of continuing our existence.
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How does the proposed plan cut the speed of reforms in half? We have 11/18 Active Development, but the Guilds aren't lowering IC, the Guilds aren't lowering Armies; really, the only things being lowered are the Active Development, Standards of Living, and Temporary Happiness. None of those are necessary to reworking the war machine.
 
Wiadi said:
@Academia Nut another question: what exactly does "[] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles" entail?
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I suspect that means that all officers are noble by default, such that becoming an officer also comes with a patent of minor nobility, which can not be inherited. Essentially, it technically keeps the privileges of officerdom restricted to the nobility, but allows the military relatively free reign to ennoble anybody they want to have an an officer.

McLuvin said:
We can't do that yet dude. We're in the middle of a military reform. Taking away a development is shooting oracles in the foot and halving our progress.

It's not nice. But we can't set up the breaking of the Guilds, reform the military and create a constitution in one turn. Not without leaving ourselves open to Tortun.
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Not necessarily advocating that plan, just checking to see what the full price list for attempting it would be.

However, I don't think it is really reducing our industry, the -active development looks more like a refund on the lost SoL, as far as I can tell.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
How does the proposed plan cut the speed of reforms in half? We have 11/18 Active Development, but the Guilds aren't lowering IC, the Guilds aren't lowering Armies; really, the only things being lowered are the Active Development, Standards of Living, and Temporary Happiness. None of those are necessary to reworking the war machine.
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Wiadi said:
While AN didn't actually clarify whether or not this was supposed to be a plan vote before going offline, it looks like people are mostly voting as though it is, so you should probably make this a plan rather than just individual votes?

EDIT: Ninja'd by AN, it is indeed in plan format.


Wait, what the fuck is your source on it halving our research speed? All it costs us is Happiness & SoL, neither of which contribute to research AFAIK.
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Oh shit.

Made a mistake there. Fuck. Read it as Tech development.

Yeah. Shit.

That'll teach me not to try and read through shit at 3 in the morning.
 
[] [Guilds] 6 PW - Provide no constitutional protections (-2 Temp Happiness, -1 SoL, -1 Active Development)

Culture
Consciousness 3 (5)
Standard of Living 4
Happiness 5 (4)/10
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^ This guild spin breaking will throw a -2 ~ -3 Happiness rock at our state during time of great change; our consciousness is at 3 + 2 (temp) and SOL is at 4, giving us a -1 temp happiness already. There are less painful way to trigger a revolution.
 
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Okay, I see two main places we can take this here.

we can either not expand the powers of the Guilds while expanding the power of everyone else, allowing them to set up industry in the Siberian frontier and essentially steal the power of the Guilds from other them.

Or we can take away the protections of the Guilds now, and focus on rushing through industrialization.
Not sure which path is better right now, but I do think that any plan which expands the power of the Guilds is a bad one.
 
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