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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Marlin said:
All the Sketch need to do is pay a fee for any info they want from their ex-scientists?
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So what if they do? We are talking about a lot of people in all kind of industries doing all sort of things. Plus, most people have integrity.

And as long those ex-scientists live in our country, the Sketch will never have the same level of access as we do to their brains.
 
Marlin said:
All the Sketch need to do is pay a fee for any info they want from their ex-scientists?

edit: Why isn't there a buy tech of Sketch from scientists in Sketch action? If the people in Sketch like money that much.
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One cannot simply BUY tech. One can premote trade or DO and try to buy a tech boost, but the industry and manufacturing base to apply the knowhow is part of the research. That takes time even IF you have a detailed explanation.
 
Kiba said:
If you have unemployed engineers on the street, then they're are of no good to anyone.
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I think we are talking about different things here. I have no problem accepting refugees. What I am against is inflicting a humiliation demand against the Sketch if they lose their Supreme Power status.

The Vortuga were already waning before we dealt them a crippling blow. They are a shadow of their former selves. But because we humiliated them, they have been trying to make as much trouble for us as possible. They allied with the Hespranxer against our allies the Khemetrei. They provided modern ships and modern naval tactics to the Nohon. We have been fortunate that events have largely rolled against them.

The Sketch could make much, much more trouble for us. They will retain most of their infrastructure. They will maintain most of their prestige. They will probably maintain most of their colonies. They have a more advanced government, a more advanced economy, and they still have a tech advantage on us. If we are dead set on holding Supreme Power status, and if we humiliate them when they lose it, we will be in a all-out war with them within a few decades.
 
Rakuhn said:
I think we are talking about different things here. I have no problem accepting refugees. What I am against is inflicting a humiliation demand against the Sketch if they lose their Supreme Power status.
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We aren't inflicting a humiliating demand against the Sketch. We are convincing individuals to leave for our country as a form of industrial espionage.
 
Might be worth a DO to the Sketch turn after next so as to to gain a commanding economic position in their country. Say, expanding the Crown Bank onto their turf... With the usual economic paternalism, of course.
 
DaLintyGuy said:
Might be worth a DO to the Sketch turn after next so as to to gain a commanding economic position in their country. Say, expanding the Crown Bank onto their turf... With the usual economic paternalism, of course.
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Unfortunately, we also have a foreign policy miles long, specifically in the East. Then there's the general revolutions in the Western front, which will change the political landscape.
 
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And we also have Consciousness 'problems'... Which means we might want to give a serious look at doing something like 0PW DTI, 0PW Sell Corp, 1PW DO Hung, 4PW ConCon and maybe 1PW Promote Trade (???).

Just so we don't have to worry about rising Consciousness and low SoL over the next turn.
 
Pyro Hawk said:
And we also have Consciousness 'problems'... Which means we might want to give a serious look at doing something like 0PW DTI, 0PW Sell Corp, 1PW DO Hung, 4PW ConCon and maybe 1PW Promote Trade (???).

Just so we don't have to worry about rising Consciousness and low SoL over the next turn.
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Should have voted for the option that gave less consciousness, and more happiness, and then we wouldn't be having this issue.
 
"And on the left you can see them arguing over other ways to set themselves on fire, while on the right....
Their argueing about how their way of being set on fire was best."

...
Is their people here focusing on getting ourselves out of the fire pit ?
 
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Lord Cornythyn's Spring 1839 Address to Parliam
  • Sidestory
    • An Address to the Parliament of the Dual Monarchy by Lord Hynryk Cornythyn, Count Petyrburg
    recorded by Parliamentary Squire Yvan Shyldyr, 18th of March 1839
    ​
    Honoured members of Parliament, I come before you today for the following reason: You have all heard of the great catastrophe brewing amongst the Syffrynites, and indeed we have spoken much of it, and it was all our assessment that, without doubt, many of them will flee to our lands. I am not here today to relight the flames of the debate of where we should allow them to settle, or where to put them, no, I am here for another reason entirely.

    These men and women who come to us, these tired, poor and huddled masses that flee the chaos of Syffryn in flames, they carry within them the same spark of potential that we the People have cultivated amongst ourselves for millennia. It is the custom in my city, and indeed amongst the Western faith of our People, that we put forward Ambition-scrip to codify our goals in life, as a humble offering before the Wise Lord and his angels. For those who have nothing left, it is said, their Ambition becomes everything.

    But we, the Lords of the People, and our Haddyth, Nokly, have before us an opportunity we have not seen since the turn of the Century. Haddyth Poetyr, God rest him, had the foresight to install provisions for the right of the immigrant to prove themselves worthy of citizenship through service to the state, and indeed many today have passed the citizenship on to their children who, in turn, enrich the Dual Monarchy.

    Many of them have served with valour and distinction in our military, bringing civilization to the untrammeled wilderness of Kyberia, fighting alongside our allies in the Khem and in the western Kus, and they have been duly acknowledged by their induction into noble orders such as the Red Guards.

    However, we must acknowledge that not all who come to us are fit for service at arms. Half of them are women, for one, and we can't rightly have them in the army, and of the rest, many are too young, too old or not suited for the vigour and rigour of the military life - and yet, in them burns the spark that we could well grow into a fire.

    Thus, I propose that we found a new royal award for merit and excellence in service to the state. I propose that it be issued for those who make significant contributions to the advancement of our industries and trade, of our agriculture and transportation, to the advancement of our sciences and technologies. To be awarded who excel in their labours, the award shall be irrevocable, for the recipient's lifetime, and non-inheritable, to be treated as an award equal to the Royal Order of the Sword.

    Gentlemen, I am certain you can see the merit of this award, the benefit the Dual Monarchy will find in issuing the Hero of Labour award to those deserving of it. We will find the best of our nation, be they born here or immigrants, and cultivate their talents further.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • Cornuthaum said:
    An Address to the Parliament of the Dual Monarchy by Lord Hynryk Cornythyn, Count Petyrburg
    recorded by Parliamentary Squire Yvan Shyldyr, 18th of March 1839
    ​
    Honoured members of Parliament, I come before you today for the following reason: You have all heard of the great catastrophe brewing amongst the Syffrynites, and indeed we have spoken much of it, and it was all our assessment that, without doubt, many of them will flee to our lands. I am not here today to relight the flames of the debate of where we should allow them to settle, or where to put them, no, I am here for another reason entirely.

    These men and women who come to us, these tired, poor and huddled masses that flee the chaos of Syffryn in flames, they carry within them the same spark of potential that we the People have cultivated amongst ourselves for millennia. It is the custom in my city, and indeed amongst the Western faith of our People, that we put forward Ambition-scrip to codify our goals in life, as a humble offering before the Wise Lord and his angels. For those who have nothing left, it is said, their Ambition becomes everything.

    But we, the Lords of the People, and our Haddyth, Nokly, have before us an opportunity we have not seen since the turn of the Century. Haddyth Poetyr, God rest him, had the foresight to install provisions for the right of the immigrant to prove themselves worthy of citizenship through service to the state, and indeed many today have passed the citizenship on to their children who, in turn, enrich the Dual Monarchy.

    Many of them have served with valour and distinction in our military, bringing civilization to the untrammeled wilderness of Kyberia, fighting alongside our allies in the Khem and in the western Kus, and they have been duly acknowledged by their induction into noble orders such as the Red Guards.

    However, we must acknowledge that not all who come to us are fit for service at arms. Half of them are women, for one, and we can't rightly have them in the army, and of the rest, many are too young, too old or not suited for the vigour and rigour of the military life - and yet, in them burns the spark that we could well grow into a fire.

    Thus, I propose that we found a new royal award for merit and excellence in service to the state. I propose that it be issued for those who make significant contributions to the advancement of our industries and trade, of our agriculture and transportation, to the advancement of our sciences and technologies. To be awarded who excel in their labours, the award shall be irrevocable, for the recipient's lifetime, and non-inheritable, to be treated as an award equal to the Royal Order of the Sword.

    Gentlemen, I am certain you can see the merit of this award, the benefit the Dual Monarchy will find in issuing the Hero of Labour award to those deserving of it. We will find the best of our nation, be they born here or immigrants, and cultivate their talents further.
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    gods corn, that was beautiful
     
    Killer_Whale said:
    Should have voted for the option that gave less consciousness, and more happiness, and then we wouldn't be having this issue.
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    We're going to need the IC in the future more than we needed the extra Happiness and les Consciousness right now. Especially as it would be easier to manage having excess consciousness right now most likely, compared to not having enough IC right now. Which would definitely have been a problem as it would have meant that we either grab the ConCon and have a few other problems continue, or spend all the PW gaining IC to fix everything else, and thus have to wait on the ConCon for another turn. Meaning we'd have another turn where we need to manage the Consciousness issue, which quite possible would cost resources making us need to consider delaying the ConCon for another turn.

    As it is, we can easily manage to get the ConCon this turn with the Liberals no longer discredited, whilst also getting rid of Isolated Hinterlands and talking to the Hung. Which should burn off all the excess Consciousness. I mean, provided nothing extreme blows up in the turn update, but we can't really predict just what'll happen with that.
     
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    DaLintyGuy said:
    Might be worth a DO to the Sketch turn after next so as to to gain a commanding economic position in their country. Say, expanding the Crown Bank onto their turf... With the usual economic paternalism, of course.
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    Noting that jamming Investment into the Sketch also makes us a lot more vulnerable to their market models due to backlash and their necessarily highly connected mode of play.

    I'd say we should focus on our direct neighbors, Kielmyr, Styrmyr, Hung, Black Sheep, Khemetri, to weather the storm and ensure their stability and prosperity, as they are the most closely tied to our own long term prosperity.
    Personally I'd say just one DO and one PT aimed at the Hung to stabilize them, then go into the ConCon immediately. Everyone is too on fire to give us a new fire.
     
    Killer_Whale said:
    That's the line of thought the Sketch took. And look at them now.
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    First, how could I forget that British economy fell apart after a first crisis OTL. Sketch are gonna be okay afterwards, market economies have a way of surviving through crises just by pushing through.

    Second, if we are going with inaccurate analogies, I'll say that "we can sacrifice industry for not rocking the boat" is a line of thought Hung took - and they are in far worse position now.
     
    veekie said:
    Noting that jamming Investment into the Sketch also makes us a lot more vulnerable to their market models due to backlash and their necessarily highly connected mode of play.

    I'd say we should focus on our direct neighbors, Kielmyr, Styrmyr, Hung, Black Sheep, Khemetri, to weather the storm and ensure their stability and prosperity, as they are the most closely tied to our own long term prosperity.
    Personally I'd say just one DO and one PT aimed at the Hung to stabilize them, then go into the ConCon immediately. Everyone is too on fire to give us a new fire.
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    What if we are lucky enough to just "buy" smart!immagrants with trust like we did with their innovation? I agree that I don't want more sketch investment, but a smaller trade of resources might be doable if a)we have the stats b)or we are fortunate enough to be able to spend temp trust in place of IC/Sol (I personally doubt this) and c)the sketch are on fire enough that they are desperate enough to offer a (from their perspective) bad deal.

    Fingers crossed :)
     
    BeepSmile said:
    What if we are lucky enough to just "buy" smart!immagrants with trust like we did with their innovation? I agree that I don't want more sketch investment, but a smaller trade of resources might be doable if a)we have the stats b)or we are fortunate enough to be able to spend temp trust in place of IC/Sol (I personally doubt this) and c)the sketch are on fire enough that they are desperate enough to offer a (from their perspective) bad deal.

    Fingers crossed :)
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    Migrants are quite limited in this day and age, barring a concerted government or corporate effort to transfer people. Our refugees are quite likely to contain a whole bunch of Sketch failed industrialists spending the last of their money to charter a ship to a country not in chaos, rather than the hungry desperate masses for instance.

    So by accepting refugees into our cities, we're already doing a brain drain. To do MORE...Demonstrating Superiority helps. Greater suffrage, higher standards of living, lower pollution also helps.
    DO/PT are unlikely to generate high quality refugees, because governments typically want to dump the poorest and angriest ones
     
    veekie said:
    Migrants are quite limited in this day and age, barring a concerted government or corporate effort to transfer people. Our refugees are quite likely to contain a whole bunch of Sketch failed industrialists spending the last of their money to charter a ship to a country not in chaos, rather than the hungry desperate masses for instance.

    So by accepting refugees into our cities, we're already doing a brain drain. To do MORE...Demonstrating Superiority helps. Greater suffrage, higher standards of living, lower pollution also helps.
    DO/PT are unlikely to generate high quality refugees, because governments typically want to dump the poorest and angriest ones
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    Next time we get someone to increase the fire output (thanks, Hexspranner/New Hexsprannar), we should hopefully have sewage works made so we can stick the new people in cities and get that delecious brain power.

    Also, I dream of telegrams. - if we are lucky, we'll be allowed to help set up networks in foreign countries, but this will be too late for current Black Sheep issues prbly (working on the belief that fast communication allows for a bit more input from distant locations, allowing a large empire to more easily stick together than otherwise).

    But, you know what would be glorious? If hung reforms and the great kiberi railroad finish near each other.

    Ohhhhh! But, we don't need the full rail to take our rightful (TM) clay! What we can do is make a branch that reaches the nearest tip of the black sheep's sea, then start again on the far end of the sea, build rail towards the eastern kiberi coast from there, take the cities (while the hung get some righteous(TM) vengeance, and then build the actual continetal railway from each end to meet in the middle - I haven't seen this mentioned, but it seems like such an obviously efficient method that people probably haven't seen the need to say.

    Edit: impact of current fire may push for stronger protections than would be in place than if there were one or two smaller fires due to horror at the damage, meaning setting the world alight might be a bit trickier than we accidentally accomplished this time.

    Or, I may be talking shit. *Shrugs*

    Also, the hung see us fight Nohon. I wonder if they will realise the value of when we stopped the sketch selling opium via Maha... Thingy where we took the ports.
     
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    veekie said:
    Migrants are quite limited in this day and age, barring a concerted government or corporate effort to transfer people. Our refugees are quite likely to contain a whole bunch of Sketch failed industrialists spending the last of their money to charter a ship to a country not in chaos, rather than the hungry desperate masses for instance.

    So by accepting refugees into our cities, we're already doing a brain drain. To do MORE...Demonstrating Superiority helps. Greater suffrage, higher standards of living, lower pollution also helps.
    DO/PT are unlikely to generate high quality refugees, because governments typically want to dump the poorest and angriest ones
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    To expand on this, even the migrant crisis in todays europe exemplifies this.

    Travelling is expensive. The people that make it to europe are those that managed to acquire the cash to pay smugglers et al.

    And this is in the age of cars and planes.

    The Syffrynite migrants personal mobility in the 19th century is a horse drawn wagon if they are rich enough to own a horse or otherwise on foot. The rail networks are not as extensive as today and cost money. As do ships.

    So essentially, only those that have some money left and worked in a job where they could acquire that kind of money are coming.*

    *Depending on the distance, of course. Those on our direct borders can walk and Sketch migrants should have plenty of boats available.
     
    veekie said:
    Theres going to be a hell of a lot of captains going pirate once they realize they aren't going to get paid for their goods.
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    Either we hire them on or are very happy once ironclads are a thing and piracy dies a fiery death as they just can't compete.

    But SEA is gonna be interesting, I imagine. Basically every maritime power active there has just gone bankrupt, Nohon very possibly as well or they wouldn't have offered us that port.

    Plenty of pirates in the area which will make train transport tough.

    Edit: Which techs are missing before we have ironclads? High Pressure Steam and Cheap Iron. Anything else?
     
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