Source on the "chance of getting caught if it works" thing? Closest I can find is this, which doesn't specify whether or not getting caught could happen on a success, just that it'd be more likely overall:


As for the not-worth-getting-caught thing, in that case it's better not to try at all. I'm not seeing a great argument for just committing halfway - that option still risks getting caught & is more likely to be an outright waste, so unless we're worried about the PW & Espionage costs (which are, in fairness, valid things to worry about) we don't have a ton of reason to go for it.
Considering that was a response to "So we're more likely to succeed but everyone knows we're playing Kingmaker" I'd take that as confirmation that we can get caught on a success.

As for that second part there's a reason I voted not to do it. Still, the lesser chance of getting caught outweighs the lesser chance of outright success in the lesser option. It's not something we need urgently after all.
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources(-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
[X] [CD] 0 PW - Allow the mission to go forward (-1 Temp Trust, -1 Temp Espionage, chance of switching Hespranxer Republic to a Constitutional Monarchy, chance of failure, small chance of embarrassing failure)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Yes (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp Armies)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)

Always pay for your wars with a mix of loaning and taxation.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by HanEmpire on Mar 5, 2018 at 2:58 AM, finished with 1203 posts and 27 votes.
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources(-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)

We have the chance to set up a puppet government so why the cold feet everyone? Everything we do will have risks.
 
Considering that was a response to "So we're more likely to succeed but everyone knows we're playing Kingmaker" I'd take that as confirmation that we can get caught on a success.

As for that second part there's a reason I voted not to do it. Still, the lesser chance of getting caught outweighs the lesser chance of outright success in the lesser option. It's not something we need urgently after all.

Which is fine. We need a constitutional monarchy to exist at all to give us a non explody way through
 
If we install a constitutional monarch only for him to end up becoming the Not!Napoleon, I'm going to laugh so hard.
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources (-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 1 PW - Styrmyr Front (increasedmilitary morale boost, increased risk)
 
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I'm fine with either assassination option as long as it is an assassination.

Hopefully this will show the other monarchies the importance of having a mechanism for the orderly transition of power.
 
[X] [CD] 0 PW - Allow the mission to go forward (-1 Temp Trust, -1 Temp Espionage, chance of switching Hespranxer Republic to a Constitutional Monarchy, chance of failure, small chance of embarrassing failure)
 
[X] [CD] 0 PW - Allow the mission to go forward (-1 Temp Trust, -1 Temp Espionage, chance of switching Hespranxer Republic to a Constitutional Monarchy, chance of failure, small chance of embarrassing failure)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Yes (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp Armies)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)

While obviously disturbing from a modern perspective, this practice was not in any way a form of sacrifice, and from discussion in their literature it was mostly meant for honoured members of their society at the end of their lives to pass on free of pain rather than to linger on.
What makes it so obviously disturbing? I get that we don't practice it anymore but we are the same culture that used to and we never got conquered or religiously converted by an external culture, did we? And you said that most of our neighbors, including Gylruv, drew heavily from our ancient culture and see themselves as partial successors of it. When did we become "generic westernized empire"?

"finding new fields",
I don't understand this euphemism. Anyone care to elaborate?

If we lose a King, fine! There's more where that came from!
I'm more concerned for the PW it costs. The benefit doesn't seem all that tangible for it.
 
What makes it so obviously disturbing? I get that we don't practice it anymore but we are the same culture that used to and we never got conquered or religiously converted by an external culture, did we? And you said that most of our neighbors, including Gylruv, drew heavily from our ancient culture and see themselves as partial successors of it. When did we become "generic westernized empire"?
It's ritualized suicide, of course people are disturbed. It's natural for people to get repulsed by the thought of self-harm.
I don't understand this euphemism. Anyone care to elaborate?
Villages that don't have enough food kick out extra mouths to die out in the countryside ("find new fields to tend").
 
[X] [CD] 0 PW - Allow the mission to go forward (-1 Temp Trust, -1 Temp Espionage, chance of switching Hespranxer Republic to a Constitutional Monarchy, chance of failure, small chance of embarrassing failure)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Yes (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp Armies)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)

We're fighting a war guys, and we just lost two temp army this turn. Let's stem that loss before we go off trying to set up dud loans for the guilds.
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources(-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
[X] [CD] 0 PW - Allow the mission to go forward (-1 Temp Trust, -1 Temp Espionage, chance of switching Hespranxer Republic to a Constitutional Monarchy, chance of failure, small chance of embarrassing failure)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Yes (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp Armies)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources(-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
What makes it so obviously disturbing? I get that we don't practice it anymore but we are the same culture that used to and we never got conquered or religiously converted by an external culture, did we? And you said that most of our neighbors, including Gylruv, drew heavily from our ancient culture and see themselves as partial successors of it. When did we become "generic westernized empire"?
The "generic westernized empire" is typical for a post collapse large and highly advanced empire. In OTL that was Rome, in our timeline it was Ymaryn AND Rome.

So what happened here was the values mentioned:
-Honorable Death

This was the foundational value of what made suicide appealing.
It was first severely shocked when we double suicided against the Khan, we did a FULL mass levy in the narrative and basically every adult who adhered to that philosophy died in the fighting with great honor.
The deathblow to the value was consolidating around our urban centers, where being willing to die for your job is no longer a social positive. Intellectuals and artisans willing to die over a matter of honor costs society the vast amounts of resources needed to train them. Its a trait that was doomed to irrelevance outside of highly martial cultures where the gain in fanatical deathseeking warriors and especially levies outweighed the costs.

-Greater Good

This was the 'pure' fanatical form of the sacrificial beliefs. This is the value conflated with the actual human sacrifices, because we pulled the value from Xohyr, which is now considered part of Greater Ymaryn(which means there ARE historical records of horrible sacrifices going on there, where said writers probably didn't bother to make it too clear that they were foreign because its self evident fact to them).
We lost this to trait fusion, but repeatedly picked it up, so the cultural record is very confused.

-Personal Stewards of Divinity

Lost/Downgraded in the fracture, since the divine nature of land held by the people is evidently disproven.
Noting that SOME part of "finding new fields" is literal, when we trigger Stewards to get free cultivation actions thats excess people being shed/banished from their home villages to set up new ones.

-Greater Justice

Almost certainly degraded in the fracture. The stabilization of the core lands REQUIRED horrible injustice to be carried out to preserve the Few at the expense of the Many.
Noting that Greater Justice also makes it Just for a scapegoat to take responsibility for a crime they didn't commit and then honorably suicide their way out to protect their organization. You may recognize elements of this behaviour in Korean/Japanese CEOs taking responsibility for some product defect or incident and resigning.

So you know, of course it looks horrifying and alien to the modern Ymaryn. The main values which promoted such behaviors could not survive urbanization and civilization fracture.
 
Chrestomanci said:
Not!Napoleon is going to be a very difficult opponent, but we should win or draw. We are much stronger than OTL Russia and Tortun is currently much weaker than OTL France. Giving the Tortun Republic time (and with us possibly being crippled by a civil war) to grow seems the much risker choice.
I don't think we should be talking about "the" republic given that there are two of them, the Hespranxer and the Tortun republic.
My post specified Tortun Republic, it was not "talking about "the" republic". At no point was Hespranxer mentioned so there should be no confusion between which of the two Republics I was talking about.
Can you point out what part of my post led to your response?

if they work steadfastly together for a common republican cause they will likely be much more powerful than OTL!Napoleons French Empire given that he didn't really have reliable allies, only unwilling subordinates and puppet states.

I suspect the key to winning these coalition wars is going to be to drive a wedge between the two republics. If we can somehow get them to fight against each other over not!Alsace-Lorraine neither of them is going to be capable of doing much else for a long time.
Agreed, it is important to use our diplomacy & intrigue to ensure the two republics do not join forces.

Hopefully by placing a new king in charge of Hespranxer, Hespranxer will join the war against Tortun.



[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources (-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources (-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 0 PW - Wyrmyn Front (increased civilian confidence, lower risk)
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources (-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 1 PW - Styrmyr Front (increased military morale boost, increased risk)

Hopefully more bank and business actions will help break the guilds. King-wise, we only have an average king, so it's not like we're risking the life of a very talented person.
 
[X] [CD] 1 PW - Find additional resources (-2 Temp Trust, -1 Espionage, increased chance of success, ???)
[X] [Taxes] 1 PW - Actually, further bank and business shenanigans should be good (+1 Temp IC)
[X] [King] 1 PW - Styrmyr Front (increased military morale boost, increased risk)
 
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