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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Umi-san said:
Build more navy? Or be, say, more proud of our much-praised diplomacy?
Y'all are concerned about pacific rather than mediterranean trade anyways.
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see this is the main issue. you seem to think that once we take those ports from Nohon we're golden. but we're not, dear god in heaven are we not. Nohon is smaller then us but while we are bad at naval they are focused on it, and they don't have pressing concenrs somewhere else. We seize port cities and weer going to spend the next hundred years dealing with a massive headach of Nohon fucking with us in the pacfic in every way they can. They are not a small enofgh power that we can casually bully them in their area of focous near the seat of their power.


Sivantic said:
Considering it is new navy, not really much of a difference :V

A sudden change in ratio does not change a darn thing, we would still have a part of our navy patrolling Ymaryn waters.
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Satsuma Red said:
Boats cannot walk on land, once we've secured Kyberia from Nihon in the future they will be highly unlikely to be able to take the land back, especially as we settle the area and develop it. An alliance with the Hung and if necessary sharing naval technology with them will allow us in the future to counter the Nihon, especially as it is likely the Hung will want not!Korea.
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as for this line of thinking, I'm curious what you think the limiting factor for a navy is? a fleet of 10 ships has the same or cheaper upkeep as 2 fleets of 5 ships. having a second ocean to be contested in will in fact reduce our navel presence in the other ocean unless we go super into navel supremacy. If we think we can straight up conquer Nohon then sure, go for it. but don't think we can just punch out some port cities and rule the waves with no issues. Nohon is going to be a power player in the pacific as long as they exist as a power almost by definition. so if you want to take those ports either be ready for a hostile power fucking with us in the pacfic and looking to take them back if we are ever distracted or weak, or be ready to end Nohon as a power.
 
random_npc said:
as for this line of thinking, I'm curious what you think the limiting factor for a navy is? a fleet of 10 ships has the same or cheaper upkeep as 2 fleets of 5 ships. having a second ocean to be contested in will in fact reduce our navel presence in the other ocean unless we go super into navel supremacy. If we think we can straight up conquer Nohon then sure, go for it. but don't think we can just punch out some port cities and rule the waves with no issues. Nohon is going to be a power player in the pacific as long as they exist as a power almost by definition. so if you want to take those ports either be ready for a hostile power fucking with us in the pacfic and looking to take them back if we are ever distracted or weak, or be ready to end Nohon as a power.
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Except that is not at all what we are saying. We are not saying to split up our existing navy but build up a new one for that territory.
 
[X][Crisis] 2 PW - Declare war on the Tortun Republic (+1 Prestige, declare war on Tortun Republic, Ochruhr aligned segments of Tortun likely to declare war on you or otherwise demand reparations for insult)
[X][Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
 
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Academia Nut said:
The Guilds semi-accidentally, semi-intentionally have been strangling a number of mechanization processes in the crib. While water powered trip hammers and the like are used they tend to be mechanically pretty simple and replace apprentice work rather than journeyman work, a lot of the more complicated inventions have gone no where because the early prototypes produce a product that falls far short of guild standards, leading to rejection. Any would be inventor thus has to be able to produce a power loom centuries in advance of what is currently available without being able to iterate off pre-existing designs. Without the guilds as backers, it is outright dangerous to step on their toes as they can and will kill if necessary to protect their monopolies, and currently have state backing in enforcement. Potentially a noble could go far from guild influence and set up a factory on their land and be able to get away from it, but that would involve getting complicated machines that might not work properly shipped out to the middle of nowhere, which has little appeal, especially in comparison to getting a commission to settle east for your second and third sons.
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d e s t r o y t h e g u i l d s
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Oh, I'm aware it works for the Japanese.

That wasn't my question, though.
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Ah I misunderstood, well; their compact and mountainous main land would starve if someone's able to blockade the main ports. Since industry is cheaper to develop in land with dense citizen population, unless they decided to migrate to not!Korea.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
Yeah, that's the hubris I was talking about.

It assumes that we can pull of a war on the edge of our supply lines, and then a transcontinental railroad, when we haven't even gotten a tiny ember of industrial revolution going.
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Siberia is ludicrously, absurdly rich in natural resources, not just in terms of wood but also in coal, iron, coal and have I mentioned coal?

The Kuzbas is one of the largest coal fields in the world, and we will need so much coal.

It is also the area that will come into contention with Nohon very soon.


The same goes for the siberian petroleum fields. You know, oil? Oil that we wouldn't have to invade Khemetri for?

Same area as the coal.

Kyberia is going to fuel the economic transformation of the Dual Monarchy.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Siberia is ludicrously, absurdly rich in natural resources, not just in terms of wood but also in coal, iron, coal and have I mentioned coal?

The Kuzbas is one of the largest coal fields in the world, and we will need so much coal.

It is also the area that will come into contention with Nohon very soon.


The same goes for the siberian petroleum fields. You know, oil? Oil that we wouldn't have to invade Khemetri for?

Same area as the coal.

Kyberia is going to fuel the economic transformation of the Dual Monarchy.
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We are yet to even start exploiting the Donbass and the like, so, you know.
Better have one exploited mine cluster than two unexploited ones, at least for practical purposes.
 
ctulhuslp said:
We are yet to even start exploiting the Donbass and the like, so, you know.
Better have one exploited mine cluster than two unexploited ones, at least for practical purposes.
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Better one mostly-developed cluster and one lightly-developed cluster than only one cluster.

We're aiming for the stars here.

Literally, if AN wants to take this to Stellaris. :V
 
random_npc said:
We seize port cities and weer going to spend the next hundred years dealing with a massive headach of Nohon fucking with us in the pacfic in every way they can. They are not a small enofgh power that we can casually bully them in their area of focous near the seat of their power.
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We seize port cities - i.e. the siberian coast - and Nohon no longer has a shitton of wood and resources they can build their navy with.
The only way to get a good navy is to invest in it. Which is an opportunity cost but, well, one that I just consider worthwhile. At least in the short term the eastern expansion gets us more PW.
Having more flexibility and reach is desirable - pacific ports and a strong navy aids in this.

ctulhuslp said:
Better have one exploited mine cluster than two unexploited ones, at least for practical purposes.
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I couldn't agree more, in the short term. In the long term? Better to have more stuff that can be exploited.
And also, direct border contact with the Hong is pretty important. Once we have that I'll probably re-evaluate my priorities, frankly.

At the moment we're successfully leveraging our diplomacy to delay any threats of invasion. So I feel that having a strong short-term resource base seems of less certain importance.
 
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Sivantic said:
Are we locked into a research option once we start it?

Are the research cards weighted?
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You can change them, will make sure to add in that option for the next update, but it costs political will and assigning them is free when they complete. This will usually only be significant in the event that some discovery or breakthrough offers you a new option that you need to take right away or it will slip away and you will have to wait and hope for it to return, or if you have some pressing strategic need for a certain project to get researched ASAP.

Research cards are weighted to a degree. Some advances are rare and have a low weight, while others will end up keep popping up because they are gating things and thus will have a climbing weight. However, these aren't mechanical weights but 'Yeah, this should show up as an option' weights.

Dirtnap said:
We still have to get through not!Vicky and not!heartsofiron
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While we will see how things are, there is a decent chance that after EY 1950 or even sooner I may lightning round things once again to avoid the thread filling up with radium salts over present day politics and ideology.
 
Umi-san said:
We seize port cities - i.e. the siberian coast - and Nohon no longer has a shitton of wood and resources they can build their navy with.
The only way to get a good navy is to invest in improving ours.
Having more flexibility and reach is desirable - pacific ports and a strong navy aids in this.
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if you think seizing the ports would end Nohon as a power due to lack of resources go for it. just keep in mind if they exist as a power then we're going to have a major resource and action sink to deal with for a very long time.
 
Umi-san said:
We seize port cities - i.e. the siberian coast - and Nohon no longer has a shitton of wood and resources they can build their navy with.
The only way to get a good navy is to invest in it.
Having more flexibility and reach is desirable - pacific ports and a strong navy aids in this.
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This, yet again, assumes we win.
Now entertain the thought that Nohon can, oh the wonder, leverage shorter logistical distance to defend their land; or border raid our attempts to build a railroad station too close.

In such a case, where opponent is actually competent, we are gonna lose a ton of PW and manpower on uncertain outcome.
 
[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 0 PW - Remain neutral and watch (-1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp SoL
 
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