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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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We're way too big to follow the Western European model. There will be too much land in between cities, and too many farmers living miles away from the nearest small town with a market for that to work.

We can do public transport better than the US, but we'll still need a good amount of private vehicles.
 
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HanEmpire said:
We could ban lobbying, and make privatisation of infrastructure and utilities illegal. Create no-car zones in cities, and do urban planning around interconnected high density municipal centres with the goal of allowing as many people as possible to, for the most part, walk and take transit wherever they need to go. That will cut down on car ownership a lot.

But until city beautification, entertainment, and hygiene become sophisticated enough this kind of layout is gonna create a lot of epidemics and suicides I reckon.
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But why, though.

Seriously, for god's sake, why?

You can have environmentalist policies in place without ruining personal public transportation and all the massive amount of innovation that comes with it - or even the fact that advances in motorized vehicles are bloody necessary for the army if absolutely nothing else.
 
Kiba said:
They will still need to be compact and walkable for people to be able to go to work. Automobiles will only exacerbate the problem of an overcrowding city.
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Not necessarily. People with cars can travel farther, so urban planners will adjust accordingly and build outwards to deal with overcrowding. In RL when cars became widespread urban planners went nuts with the urban sprawl thing; it's how suburbia came about. Of course that just led to even more intense overcrowding later on when cities run out of room to expand and jobs started concentrating in office blocks, but urban planners didn't know that at the time.
Cornuthaum said:
But why, though.

Seriously, for god's sake, why?

You can have environmentalist policies in place without ruining personal public transportation and all the massive amount of innovation that comes with it - or even the fact that advances in motorized vehicles are bloody necessary for the army if absolutely nothing else.
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I was just giving a hypothetical about how to keep cars from dominating everything. I'm not partial to super-intense urbanization myself, I don't like cramped apartments.
 
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Point was, beware of corruption, especially of the private sector attempting to sabotage the government sector for its own benefit. Encourage working together, rather than rivalries.

Above all, provide universal public internet connection, I am tired of Comcast >3>
 
Yeangst said:
We're way too big to follow the Western European model. There will be too much land in between cities, and too many farmers living miles away from the nearest small town with a market for that to work.

We can do public transport better than the US, but we'll still need a good amount of private vehicles.
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We probably could follow the Western European model with a sufficiently dense population sourced from other countries, and we can definitely follow it in our core areas w/o that. Buses like they rely on in less developed countries would help a lot. So too would zeppelins.
 
HanEmpire said:
I was just giving a hypothetical about how to keep cars from dominating everything. I'm not partial to super-intense urbanization myself, I don't like cramped apartments.
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Super dense urbanization need not be about cramped apartment, especially if you're building acropolises.

Umi-san said:
We probably could follow the Western European model with a sufficiently dense population sourced from other countries, and we can definitely follow it in our core areas w/o that. Buses like they rely on in less developed countries would help a lot. So too would zeppelins.
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Zeppelins as public transport?

Naw. Aerial tramways would work better.
 
HanEmpire said:
But until city beautification, entertainment, and hygiene become sophisticated enough this kind of layout is gonna create a lot of epidemics and suicides I reckon.
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I understand the epidemics if the city is badly designed, but why will fewer cars lead to suicide?

Kiba said:
Ymaryn cities are already walkable and highly compact. We just need to keep it that way.
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Kiba said:
They will still need to be compact and walkable for people to be able to go to work. Automobiles will only exacerbate the problem of an overcrowding city.
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Just curious, but why compact? I mean, wouldn't a desing similar to that of Leonardo da Vinci's ideal city's wide streets work better against epidemics? I though that that would be what ancient civilizations would aim for...


 
Kiba said:
Naw. Aerial tramways would work better.
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...? Why would we build thousands of miles of tramways to connect like 2000 people to our main railway? Much less all the way out to our as-yet-undeveloped siberian towns?

Zeppelins let us establish towns out in nowhere without regard for the terrain passed otw to them. Which means we can get a head start on development in that region and work on developing railroads from both directions. Plus, better surveying, etc.
 
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Kiba said:
Super dense urbanization need not be about cramped apartment, especially if you're building acropolises.
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Did you mean arcologies? In that case this conversation's completely gone over my head, because I thought we were talking about 19th~20th century urban planning.

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EmptyHusk said:
I understand the epidemics if the city is badly designed, but why will fewer cars lead to suicide?
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Because my scenario involves people living like sardines in a can.
 
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Umi-san said:
...? Why would we build thousands of miles of tramways to connect like 2000 people to our main railway? Much less all the way out to our as-yet-undeveloped siberian towns?

Zeppelins let us establish towns out in nowhere without regard for the terrain passed otw to them. Which means we can get a head start on development in that region and work on developing railroads from both directions. Plus, better surveying, etc.
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We're talking about urban planning and intercity and intracity mass transit, right? It would seems to me that cableway would more efficiently carry more people than a Zeppelin would be inside a city(given attendant docking issues, winds, etc), and railways would carry a lot more people than cars would.

If we don't see people in real life using Zeppelin for transport to transiberian towns, it makes you wonder why they would be appropriate technology for connecting Siberia.

HanEmpire said:
Because my scenario involves people living like sardines in a can.
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If you don't want to people to live like sardines in a can, you increase density until people stop living in sardines, because there would be enough floor space to give people necessary rooms. Obviously, this would necessitate even more urban transit and better transport infrastructure.

That being said, people being able to live in sardines is important to maintaining the quality and vitality of the urban center. Otherwise, poor people can't afford to live there.

EmptyHusk said:
Just curious, but why compact? I mean, wouldn't a desing similar to that of Leonardo da Vinci's ideal city's wide streets work better against epidemics? I though that that would be what ancient civilizations would aim for...
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In any given ancient urban center, your ability to travel is pretty much limited by how fast you can bother to walk.
 
Still looking at map, and I know someone floated the idea of allying with the UP before. Considering the Nohon are colonizing the west coast, I think we might actually be able to forge a pretty good relationship with them...
 
Citino said:
Still looking at map, and I know someone floated the idea of allying with the UP before. Considering the Nohon are colonizing the west coast, I think we might actually be able to forge a pretty good relationship with them...
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It will take a while before someone's able to cross the deserts and gun wielding natives. :V Still need steam boat for us to make meaningful impact to that faraway land.
 
VoidZero said:
It will take a while before someone's able to cross the deserts and gun wielding natives. :V Still need steam boat for us to make meaningful impact to that faraway land.
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It'd be a long term investment, but it's one that could pay off quite a bit down the line. Especially since we'd be well regarded in the UP's cultural memory as they grow more powerful.
 
HanEmpire said:
I was just giving a hypothetical about how to keep cars from dominating everything. I'm not partial to super-intense urbanization myself, I don't like cramped apartments.
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Just make more investment into public transportation. Trams, buses, railways and such.

As a bonus, good public transport will hopefully decrease amount of land in the city dedicated to goddamn parking lots.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Just make more investment into public transportation. Trams, buses, railways and such.

As a bonus, good public transport will hopefully decrease amount of land in the city dedicated to goddamn parking lots.
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Given how crammed and hewed in we are in our valley, Redshore + Sacred Forest + Valleyhome metropolitan area will probably end up as the Hong Kong of the West.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Just make more investment into public transportation. Trams, buses, railways and such.

As a bonus, good public transport will hopefully decrease amount of land in the city dedicated to goddamn parking lots.
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Depends on the culture really. I've been to S.Korea which has a very good public transport system, but still suffers overcrowded roads because cars are equated to social standing. Gotta have big fancy imported cars to be seen as a person of note, so people take questionable loans to buy cars that stay stuck in traffic all day, every day.

Given that I don't have to live there I'm all for experimenting with high-density urban layout like my scenario, just to see how society works without cars. I've seen the opposite end of the spectrum and it's not pretty.
 
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HanEmpire said:
Depends on the culture really. I've been to S.Korea which has a very good public transport system, but still suffers overcrowded roads because cars are equated to social standing. Gotta have big fancy imported cars to be seen as a person of note, so people take questionable loans to buy cars that stays stuck in traffic all day, every day.
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Congestion charges. Probably not a politically popular solution, thereby hard to implement, but it is a solution.
 
Kiba said:
We're talking about urban planning and intercity and intracity mass transit, right? It would seems to me that cableway would more efficiently carry more people than a Zeppelin would be inside a city(given attendant docking issues, winds, etc), and railways would carry a lot more people than cars would.

If we don't see people in real life using Zeppelin for transport to transiberian towns, it makes you wonder why they would be appropriate technology for connecting Siberia.
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Kindly refer back to the comment I was responding to.

Edit: Also, public (dis)regard for a technology has a significant effect.
 
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Kiba said:
Given how crammed and hewed in we are in our valley, Redshore + Sacred Forest + Valleyhome metropolitan area will probably end up as the Hong Kong of the West.
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....
gods, the pollution in these valley megapolises will be devastating

HanEmpire said:
Depends on the culture really. I've been to S.Korea which has a very good public transport system, but still suffers overcrowded roads because cars are equated to social standing. Gotta have big fancy imported cars to be seen as a person of note, so people take questionable loans to buy cars that stay stuck in traffic all day, every day.

Given that I don't have to live there I'm all for experimenting with high-density urban layout like my scenario, just to see how society works without cars. I've seen the opposite end of the spectrum and it's not pretty.
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Well yes a "show-off" aspect is still a thing, naturally; and personal car offers more freedom.
But lack of public option makes it all worse.
 
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