I still want to hold onto my first suggestion as a Frostwolf shaman, if only because of the political connection giving us a lot of options and opening many doors, on top of the shaman aspect which would come to the character more easily. At the very least, we'll have a good foundation to move from, as opposed to other backgrounds that will carry certain baggage relating to fel and demonic stuff that's pretty much sure to get us more hate than we'd bargain for.
That said, if nothing else is for it, I'd go with the Reverse Image specifically for the shaman class.
Fair enough and I hope I've managed to be critically minded in the quest before that point.
If I were to expand my point in some cases I come to a quest hoping to find something new and unexpected with an Insert X and other times I'm more interested in doing a dive into its meat and bones (not necessarily in a usual way mind.)
I have no doubt that FractiousDay can develop the light into something that's far superior to what Blizzard has currently got, it was never an accusation towards them. It was a grumble at Blizzard for putting me off of the Light.
I will say though that I came here for orcs so I do want to something orcy that isn't as you put it "forever war plots."
God just thinking about is making me annoyed !
Of course, this is somewhat incongruous with my support of the Druid idea you initially had, but my logic was much the same with the spiritualism and close relations to the Tauren making me wonder why they weren't able to become Druids, while feeling it'd be a neat bit of inter horde and possibly inter night elf chatting etc.
Why not the light, well for all that I like it conceptually as I said I came here for orcs and orc stuff. Of course I know saying this is missing a whole bunch of opportunities, being the first light weilding orc would be a pretty big deal and give us lots of potential things to examine, diplo options and so on...I'm reminded of Torroar's quest where Gromash became a priest.
... I dunno what you got from me saying that bit about "am I critically minded, or am I just pretending (to myself)?", but... It was entirely written with the intent ofpoking fun at myself.
But thank for expanding on your reasoning, I liked seeing more of your perspective, although... now you kinda sorta have me in favor of the druid option a little bit again. So. grrrrrr.
Navigating those challenges as part of a playerbase does sound interesting, and potentially enriching.
... I dunno what you got from me saying that bit about "am I critically minded, or am I just pretending (to myself)?", but... It was entirely written with the intent ofpoking fun at myself.
Annoying but oh well. I don't ordinarily use pictures and similar, but maybe I'll look for better sources for them. They seem ok to me but yea, bit of a shame.
In general for @BeepSmile and @Doomed Wombat 's points, I'd encourage the attitude of trying things out. This is Agency Quest, you have the agency, just be aware of the consequences. I'm confident in my ability to write well, whether on the Light or otherwise, you must be confident enough to choose interesting things for me to write about.
Regarding criticality, this really came out when I was reading BoneyM's quest. Now as a general WFB quest its entirely fine, and quite enjoyable as a narrative. However, I think some parts of it fall into the same problems as lots of quests. For example the MC is accomplished in many areas without appreciable problems. This is my 'Batman Problem', there's no conflict or meaningful choices between being a wizard, an apparently pretty good swordswoman, an academic, a shareholder in a company and so on. The central point of the quest was that your advisers can sometimes betray you, yet there's never really been any of that, or not to a significant degree. The questers chose to embezzle a bit, but not a lot, and in general act just like a good loyal servant, there's no personal motivation.
In this quest I want to put obstacles without clear win conditions in your way. For example, the central point of balancing your allegiances to Horde, Orcs, Clan and Self. I don't intend to make it arbitrary, but I hope they'll be some interesting choices for you to make. I'd also note that a lot of you are trying to get out of some of these obligations by choosing options which avoid them, or at least try to. Now again this is valid, but to inform your decisions lets look at the Mag'har. Say you get to a recruitment centre to join up or something and they say to you 'what clan are you' as a sort of census, the sergeant sees your brown uncorrupted skin and says 'ah, youre a Frostwolf' and you reply 'no, we call ourselves the Maghar'. Now, in theory some orcs might remember that they left a load of children and sick orcs in Nagrand before they came to Azeroth, and therefore in theory you might be one of these. This gives you certain benefits such as not being corrupted at all and also have a trait of pride or self-possession or something that would allow you to take certain actions, however this also means that you don't have any family on Azeroth. I really really want to emphasise the importance of the clan as a social and political unit. Worst case scenario, people think you're an exiled Frostwolf and ostracise you, they refuse you hospitality, assistance and training. (one of the) Best cases would have people being still suspicious and treat you as a curiosity, but not involving you in things. Compare that with Burning Blade for example, yes you've got the fel stigma, and the Burning Blade stigma of being edgy and weirdos etc, but you'll also be automatically involved in various demon related things, your expertise will be called on.
Essentially while I don't mind people reading this and saying 'cool quest I like the orcs', I'd also enjoy people discussing this sort of issue, how the structures constrain you, how we interpret agency in this sort of interactive fiction. I'm not sure how I want to use dice rolls yet, but for example you wouldn't be able to diceroll your way past being an obviously corrupted warlock, people would instinctively distrust you and refuse to associate with you, I don't plan to say 'oh you rolled a 40 so actually they're cool withyou'
I still want to hold onto my first suggestion as a Frostwolf shaman, if only because of the political connection giving us a lot of options and opening many doors, on top of the shaman aspect which would come to the character more easily. At the very least, we'll have a good foundation to move from, as opposed to other backgrounds that will carry certain baggage relating to fel and demonic stuff that's pretty much sure to get us more hate than we'd bargain for.
Frostwolf will indeed open doors. Not automatically, but having that connection will be very useful, and you'll be 'managed' by various people until you grow up and prove yourself as a adult warrior etc. You could walk up to any senior Frostwolf officer (Nazgrel for example is Orgrimmar's military governor), and ask for work and assistance in terms of training, resources etc, and they'd give it you, because you're part of their clan. You in turn would be expected to contribute, to obey and so on. Mag'har provides a (for the moment) solely internal foundation which makes you self confident, and if you met Garrosh maybe he'd remember you or whatever as you're both from Garadar, but there's little in the way of immediate benefits.
Similarly, Burning Blade for the blademaster option would allow you to go get work and resources, just in the more specialised (anti)demon field.
Edit note: Modified Mag'har and Mok'Nathal clans to prevent 'for the clan' motivation given they aren't proper clans.
As promised, here's a note on the motivation options. I've given you the following options and I'll use some examples here to clarify these.
Your actions will be limited by your motivations, and the next substantive updates' choices of traits. For example, sometimes you simply won't have the option to refuse or accept certain proposals. If you choose 'For the Horde' and the Warchief gives you an order, or even a request, you'll then have that as a mandatory action choice. Similarly, if you've picked 'For the Clan' and someone makes a proposal that you recognise will materially disadvantage your clan you will automatically refuse that request, though if you have certain traits you'll be able to refuse it in certain ways, such as false acceptance or more diplomatically refusing it.
You choosing one motivation will not prevent you from going against it sometimes, you aren't an automaton or a ascetic, and environmental factors will have effects on you, if you chose 'pride' as a trait for example you might seek to glorify yourself at the expense of the clan, for example 'I am strong' rather than 'My clan is strong'. Similarly, unless you have some sort of deceptive or self-serving trait its unlikely you'd question orders from superiors much which might leads to unfortunate circumstances if those orders are bad. We'll go into this more in the next post but generally you'll need certain traits to disagree with the standard orcish mindset of strength being the most important, or of certain actions being inherently dishonourable. Your motivations can change if you encounter specific circumstances.
You will not have solely one motivation, you're socialised to have all these motivations in most cases, and the origin you chose will reflect these automatically. For example, let's say you're a Warsong Warrior, by default your motivations might be Clan>Horde>Orcs>Yourself, because that's the culture of the Warsong orcs. However, lets say you're a particularly self-serving individual, you might choose 'Yourself' as your primary motivation, which would put that to the top of the list. Similarly, if you chose Frostwolf + Warlock you'd probably be an exile by default, so 'Clan' would come at the bottom of your list of motivations unless you specifically chose it because you want to prove yourself or something. Bigger more organised clans will inspire more loyalty than smaller ones, while some clans are more loyal to the Horde or to Orckind than others (most of the lesser clans). Currently 'Reverse Image' is in the lead as a vote, to say something about that the Mok'Nathal aren't really a clan so most activities wouldn't affect them, but you'd be more influenced toward helping the Horde in general over the Orcs because you're only half orc in the first place.
In general these are positive motivations. They make you more inclined to do things, rather than making you take negative action. Being loyal to yourself doesn't mean you'd be a murderhobo, but it does mean you'd think more carefully about who would actually benefit from what you're doing, and whether you want to expend the effort to do something in particular.
Let's go through the motivations then and then I'll use another example of a quest in Classic WoW to illustrate.
You'll march under the symbol of the Horde. The Tauren and the Darkspear Trolls have helped the Orcs and you are stronger together than you are alone. Your diversity will bring you glory. However, greater integration also means you have a duty to help in situations that do not concern you, to resolve the ancient grudges of tribes far away, or assist in activities you find objectionable, such as the works of the Forsaken.
You'll prize cosmopolitanism more, be more accepting of other peoples, and look toward collective strength. However, you'll also be more inclined to involved yourself in things that really don't affect you. A specific example would be the various feuds among the trolls, and appeals toward your 'patriotism' for want of a better word would be received better. You would also be more conservative in politics because the Horde generally is, so you wouldn't immediately grasp the importance of innovations. You might not uphold the status quo all the time, but you'd be inclined to doing so.
Strength and Honour. These are the only virtues worth respecting. Yes your allies have helped you in the past, but so did the Ogres and the Goblins in the First and Second Wars and where are they now?. Only Orcs can be trusted, only Orcs are strong. You'll fight for the benefit of your people first, and others second, as long as they don't stand in your way... However, while Orcs are truly a mighty people, you know that they are also constrained by tradition. You will honour these traditions, whether convenient or not.
You'd try to uphold specifically orcish culture, and favour the orcs over other races. You'll favour the orcish virtues of strength above others, and be inclined to distrust allies till they've proven themselves. You may be revanchist, wanting to bring back the Old Horde.
While the Clan has diminished as the central political unit of Orcish culture over time, you were taught to follow your clan chief first, rather than your Warchief. Thrall is the leader of the Horde, and of the Orcs, but he is not the chief of your clan. While often the policies of clan and Horde align, sometimes they do not, and you may find your loyalties split...
You'll favour the advancement of your own clan above that of the orcs generally. If for example the Horde needs some fighters if it'll bring your clan glory you'd probably go, but if its something like guard duty you'd probably refuse. The constitutional arrangements of the Horde don't allow Thrall to really 'order' people, he relies extensively on persuasion. Sometimes this motivation would bring you directly into conflict with other motivations, such as if you picked one of the specific clans which have conflicting motives like Shadowmoon, or even Burning Blade.
You've observed that regardless of who's fighting, everyone seems to lose. There are great threats to Azeroth and you plan to stand against them, regardless of who you have to fight with, whether Orcs or otherwise.
This one is a bit nebulous. We as players know about the threats to Azeroth, but you'd really only know in abstract about them. With this motivation you'd generally seek out 'problems' to solve, whether demons, elementals run amok or similar. You might spend time helping druids or shaman, or trying to sort the Wailing Caverns or similar. Sometimes your goals align, like the Barrens being green again being helpful for everyone, but this also means you'd be opposed to some things you might want to do otherwise. This doesn't force you to be an environmentalist, but it'll make you be suspicious of industrialisation because it upsets the elements etc. Having said that, I'd probably say the Iron Horde had a far better chance against the Burning Legion than Thrall's Horde ever did because they industrialised, but also messed up their planet.
For the Horde? Why? Why fight for Clan or even race? The only thing important is your own survival. You'll prioritise this over other allegiances, though this doesn't prevent you from supporting other causes as necessary.
This one gives you the most freedom. It's fairly self explanatory, and it doesn't prohibit you from helping others. If orcs in general are stronger you as an orc will benefit for example, this one would make you more inclined to seek personal forms of power though rather than institutional forms.
@FractiousDay are the background events going to play out the same as in canon? If so, will it be entirely like canon or will it diverge up to a point?
@FractiousDay are the background events going to play out the same as in canon? If so, will it be entirely like canon or will it diverge up to a point?
It depends. I'm not necessarily a fan of the butterfly affect where unaffected events arbitrarily change because other events have. Therefore your actions won't usually have any effect on something far away, however there won't be the same stasis associated with the games. As one example you probably can't stop the cataclysm because you'd be having to stop deathwing or alter his plans which would be difficult, but if you don't take part in fighting and defeating him then others will. Events will progress without you basically. Did you have anything specific in mind?
It depends. I'm not necessarily a fan of the butterfly affect where unaffected events arbitrarily change because other events have. Therefore your actions won't usually have any effect on something far away, however there won't be the same stasis associated with the games. As one example you probably can't stop the cataclysm because you'd be having to stop deathwing or alter his plans which would be difficult, but if you don't take part in fighting and defeating him then others will. Events will progress without you basically. Did you have anything specific in mind?
What about a burning blade with a light slash Paladin build whose main virtue is the horde? Like the write up for burning blade is using pure skill combined with outside sources that were used for the Express purpose to really kill things really good. I dunno its be an interesting idea at least
Certainly. If you kill the guy who invented mana bombs then that's one way of preventing the bombing. If you got to a position of sufficient fame before cata you could potentially become Warchief instead, of have the rank to pull mak'gora.
Similarly if you invented the iron star early and made a steam engine then the warsong have a lot less reason to fight in ashenvale because the lumber wouldn't be so needed.
What about a burning blade with a light slash Paladin build whose main virtue is the horde? Like the write up for burning blade is using pure skill combined with outside sources that were used for the Express purpose to really kill things really good. I dunno its be an interesting idea at least
If you want to try it go for it. Burning Blade would be one of the easiest ways to get light training actually because they'd support it more.
Voting will close tomorrow at some point. I would recommend anyone who's picked an option with relatively few votes instead coalesces around one with more votes, otherwise reverse image is going to easily win and the votes with 1 or 2 votes will be wasted.
Adhoc vote count started by FractiousDay on Dec 19, 2020 at 5:50 AM, finished with 63 posts and 17 votes.
[X] Plan: The Reverse Image
-[X] Angrais
-[X] Female -[X] Mok'Nathal -[X] Shaman -[X] For Azeroth
Certainly. If you kill the guy who invented mana bombs then that's one way of preventing the bombing. If you got to a position of sufficient fame before cata you could potentially become Warchief instead, of have the rank to pull mak'gora.
Similarly if you invented the iron star early and made a steam engine then the warsong have a lot less reason to fight in ashenvale because the lumber wouldn't be so needed.
If you want to try it go for it. Burning Blade would be one of the easiest ways to get light training actually because they'd support it more.
Voting will close tomorrow at some point. I would recommend anyone who's picked an option with relatively few votes instead coalesces around one with more votes, otherwise reverse image is going to easily win and the votes with 1 or 2 votes will be wasted.
Adhoc vote count started by FractiousDay on Dec 19, 2020 at 5:50 AM, finished with 63 posts and 17 votes.
[X] Plan: The Reverse Image
-[X] Angrais
-[X] Female -[X] Mok'Nathal -[X] Shaman -[X] For Azeroth
Cool lemme throw in a plan then!
[X] Male
[X] Gorkaro
[X] Burning Blade
[X] For the Horde!
[X] Light wielder
I am willing to change on the name figured something that sounded vaguely eastern would work since burning blade for some reason has a samurai vibe to it.
One observation, I probably should have set free votes for these so that people would vote on specific things not on plans generally. Mok'Nathal has been voted for over two different plans and similarly Burning Blade has been voted for in different plans. However, lets say 6 people voted for Plan A where Clan A is chosen, but that Plans B and C both included Clan B and collectively had more votes, in that case Clan A would win despite not having the most clan votes.
I think it would be most unreasonable to change the voting rules now, but something to consider for the next updates perhaps
@RukinSteps for your purposes this is notable because unless 5 more people support your vote its largely meaningless, so to promote everyone's vote actually mattering I'll have to consider how to do it better in future.
Cool lemme throw in a plan then!
[X] Male
[X] Gorkaro
[X] Burning Blade
[X] For the Horde!
[X] Light wielder
I am willing to change on the name figured something that sounded vaguely eastern would work since burning blade for some reason has a samurai vibe to it.
In the next update you'll be able to choose a secondary class if you want to, reducing your capabilities in both areas, but also give you a wider skillset.
Indeed, and that goes for @BeepSmile@WheelOfFortune and @ddkofall as you've all voted for a light based option that currently isn't even in the top 3. Remember that all the Silver Hand paladins were just knights before they became paladins and that the Burning Blade have an institutional culture of adding new magics to their stuff.
So it's looking like it'll be Reverse Image currently but I'm leaving it open till later on Sunday for any last votes.
I will note that I find it very interesting that one of the least orcy and clanny options has been chosen given the moknathal's history and the few in Azeroth currently. I also find it interesting my warnings regarding gender have been ignored or perhaps not ignored but accepted, but I suppose we'll see. Being a female moknathal certainly cancels out the physical malus you'd get from being a female orc
Indeed, and that goes for @BeepSmile@WheelOfFortune and @ddkofall as you've all voted for a light based option that currently isn't even in the top 3. Remember that all the Silver Hand paladins were just knights before they became paladins and that the Burning Blade have an institutional culture of adding new magics to their stuff.
!
