Zeitgeist Blue
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[X] Accept an Alliance commission to take Alterac, guaranteeing cooperation from local Alliance forces, and support from Dathrohan's Crusade.
Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
- Start date
- Fantasy
Of course there's downsides but the advantages are really good with the connections Grok made.
Legally and geographically, Alterac belongs to the Alliance after taking down the previous king which caused lots of problems of succession. Deathwing masquerading as Prestor tried to get in on the succession while using magic to beguile the other leaders of the alliance with empty promises because as mortal leaders now that the big menace the horde is gone most wanted to increase their own power and Alterac was prime real estate. Prestor was supposed to be the compromise until his gambit with the Demon Soul got him to bugger off.
So in comes Grok. Recently from his victory over Naxrammas and secretly accepted by the light while accepted as a friend of the Alliance in a letter. He takes it and let's say he completes those requests. He now has more political capital to call in favors towards his own management and the treatment of the horde left behind.
Legally and geographically, Alterac belongs to the Alliance after taking down the previous king which caused lots of problems of succession. Deathwing masquerading as Prestor tried to get in on the succession while using magic to beguile the other leaders of the alliance with empty promises because as mortal leaders now that the big menace the horde is gone most wanted to increase their own power and Alterac was prime real estate. Prestor was supposed to be the compromise until his gambit with the Demon Soul got him to bugger off.
So in comes Grok. Recently from his victory over Naxrammas and secretly accepted by the light while accepted as a friend of the Alliance in a letter. He takes it and let's say he completes those requests. He now has more political capital to call in favors towards his own management and the treatment of the horde left behind.
The Alliance letter of safe conduct probably doesn't apply as much to contested areas.
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[X] Accept an Alliance commission to take Alterac, guaranteeing cooperation from local Alliance forces, and support from Dathrohan's Crusade.
Hmmmm.... I guess Grok can still follow his orders while still serving the horde.......
[X] Accept an Alliance commission to take Alterac, guaranteeing cooperation from local Alliance forces, and support from Dathrohan's Crusade.
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
I'm actually going to do something uncharacteristic for me and look at this from an OOC perspective.
What is Balnazzar trying to achieve?
1) In the medium perspective, this looks like preparation for an assault on Norhtrend, for revenge against the Lich King. Understandable, after first Arthas, and then Sylvanas pretty much destroyed the Dreadlord-controlled Undead forces with pathetic means to do so. Barean Westwind have come back "surrounded by ravens", so, likely, Balnazzar, Varimathras AND Mal'Ganis are all cooperating to invade and destroy the Lich King. The Scourge is, pretty much, a fantasy WMD, and the Nathrezim know about that better than others. Okay.
2) In the long perspective, this should build up to the Burning Legion, shouldn't it? Varimathras had Sargeras on speed dial, had he not? Not sure how are they trying to achieve this. Corrupting humanity from within? Will we see Dathrohan and Barean trying to promote the Raven Priests? Not sure, not sure, considering their core area of control are Light-worshippers, who have just won a huge victory over the Scourge. Establishing a NEW Demon Gate in Alterac to summon Kil'Jaeden? I really don't have immediate answers.
3) Now comes the short perspective. He's pretty much framing us to remove the Horde upon the EK entirely. Raiding Whitewolves? Really? Anyway, the Alliance haven't removed them by themselves. Are we sure Dathrohan is not just bluffing? I can't imagine what state of mind Grok would need to be in to try to remove the Frostwolves, who've done their best to seclude themselves from all the conflicts, and STILL got invaded by frakking dwarves. This is just wrong.
4) Since when are Stormpikes guarding the only path to Alterac? We might as well take the long way around and come through the Uplands, or from Hilsbrad, even. Definitely trying to influence us and make us think we have no choice.
5) Could it be just a suicide mission? We don't have that many troops to take on the whole of Syndicate, AND the ogres, AND the trolls, AND the Frostwolves of all people? I don't see why he'd want to remove Grok, but this is too big of a task. We barely handled the Stromgarde adventure.
6) I didn't entirely understand what Balnazzar wants about the Syndicate, aside from the fact that his favourite option would be to have Aliden Perenolde killed and replaced with a Dreadlord, or maybe some other demon. Syndicate were already in contact with the Shadow Council (Argus Wake), so they'd be a prime group to handle a Demon Gate's opening, I guess.
7) Hmm, imagine if we did win it all. Would we have too many people to actually rule as a "constable"? Which means the ruler of Alterac would be either fake-Aliden, or Lady Prestor. The latter actually seems to be a better idea now, since a Black Dragonflight base in Alterac will at least destabalize whatever plots Balnazzar has around it.
What is Balnazzar trying to achieve?
1) In the medium perspective, this looks like preparation for an assault on Norhtrend, for revenge against the Lich King. Understandable, after first Arthas, and then Sylvanas pretty much destroyed the Dreadlord-controlled Undead forces with pathetic means to do so. Barean Westwind have come back "surrounded by ravens", so, likely, Balnazzar, Varimathras AND Mal'Ganis are all cooperating to invade and destroy the Lich King. The Scourge is, pretty much, a fantasy WMD, and the Nathrezim know about that better than others. Okay.
2) In the long perspective, this should build up to the Burning Legion, shouldn't it? Varimathras had Sargeras on speed dial, had he not? Not sure how are they trying to achieve this. Corrupting humanity from within? Will we see Dathrohan and Barean trying to promote the Raven Priests? Not sure, not sure, considering their core area of control are Light-worshippers, who have just won a huge victory over the Scourge. Establishing a NEW Demon Gate in Alterac to summon Kil'Jaeden? I really don't have immediate answers.
3) Now comes the short perspective. He's pretty much framing us to remove the Horde upon the EK entirely. Raiding Whitewolves? Really? Anyway, the Alliance haven't removed them by themselves. Are we sure Dathrohan is not just bluffing? I can't imagine what state of mind Grok would need to be in to try to remove the Frostwolves, who've done their best to seclude themselves from all the conflicts, and STILL got invaded by frakking dwarves. This is just wrong.
4) Since when are Stormpikes guarding the only path to Alterac? We might as well take the long way around and come through the Uplands, or from Hilsbrad, even. Definitely trying to influence us and make us think we have no choice.
5) Could it be just a suicide mission? We don't have that many troops to take on the whole of Syndicate, AND the ogres, AND the trolls, AND the Frostwolves of all people? I don't see why he'd want to remove Grok, but this is too big of a task. We barely handled the Stromgarde adventure.
6) I didn't entirely understand what Balnazzar wants about the Syndicate, aside from the fact that his favourite option would be to have Aliden Perenolde killed and replaced with a Dreadlord, or maybe some other demon. Syndicate were already in contact with the Shadow Council (Argus Wake), so they'd be a prime group to handle a Demon Gate's opening, I guess.
7) Hmm, imagine if we did win it all. Would we have too many people to actually rule as a "constable"? Which means the ruler of Alterac would be either fake-Aliden, or Lady Prestor. The latter actually seems to be a better idea now, since a Black Dragonflight base in Alterac will at least destabalize whatever plots Balnazzar has around it.
I believe that's the case. Danrothan outlined he wants disruptions to his plans for Alterac dealt with but is open to alterations like the Syndicate being brought back into the fold.
He wants them dealt with.
Syndicate wipe out or absorb.
Frostwolves pacify. Can mean plenty but he trusts Grok to mediate a solution towards his future plans. Doesn't mean kill em all. It means negotiate with them.
Winteraxe trolls. More standard fare it seems.
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Something something mediaval lack of consistent spelling, but amended. I get Lordaeron wrong sometimes too
But, crucially, apparently the Red's never bothered telling anyone about that, so the humans don't know Prestor was a dragon
It does, but your 'retinue' doesn't count as 600 guys in an army. Any military commander who just waved such a force through their picket would be executed for dereliction of duty. It's a pass specifically for you, not for random armies you happen to be leading.
Kir, I won't commend too much on these, but I will give some general points.
The standard Legion playbook is to find a proxy, build them up, corrupt them, and the get Legion reinforcements through a demon gate built by the proxy. They did this 3 times on azeroth so far with the Highborn, Orcs, and then the Scourge. It may be that they're trying it again, it may not.
Not necessarily. However, Grok's prescence, like the use of mercenaries genreally, is proving extremely convenient. If Grok does anything bad for example Dathrohan can effortlessly disclaim it and blame it on generic orc savageness. Comparably, if Grok performs well, Dathrohan can exort his followers to make stronger efforts or unify because effective Orcs are embaressing them. It would be convenient for Dathrohan for the Alliance to have greater territorial unity, and it's a sensible military objective to remove problematic communities like leftover orcish tribes.
I'll focus this specific response on the alliance's perspective. While Grok would indeed refuse to just attack the Frostwolves if Dathrohan asked, and he wouldn't be obliged to obey etc, the Frostwolves are still on Alliance land. This is represented poorly in game because Blizzard are pretty terrible at politics, but fundamentally this is, and has been for centuries, alliance land.
(since they took it off the trolls anyway, but no one cares about the trolls)
The Orcs came to Azeroth as bloodthirsty genocidal murderers. Just because some of them felt sad about it, it doesn't mean they can just claim bits of land, despite it potentially being Terra Nullis (ie, unoccupted etc). It's especially objectionable, because the Frostwolves were fine sheltering Horde fugitives like Thrall or Doomhammer.
Now, whether the Alliance was entirely 'right' in pursuing the Frostwolves, from their positon it's entirely defensible. The Stormpikes have legal authority from the owners and occupiers of the land, and are opposed by a squatting tribe. If the Frostwolves actually wanted to live in peace, maybe they should have actually started trading or something. They've only been there about 10 years, and perhaps a reason the land wasn't occupied is because the genocidal aliens (y'know, the orcs) had just killed everyone there and depopulated it.
There's nuances to this. As they would be in any aspect of such complex political and historic situations, but the Frostwolves are hardly blameless. They happily participated in the Horde and the destruction of Stormwind and then left sometimes around the start of the Second War.
Imagine sometime in the 60s it was discovered that in some remote region of central asia there was a random SS division hiding out, apparently living in peace, and then they were discovered by an Allied force of some sort. They wouldn't just be left there because theyre peaceful and chill now, they still threaten the territorial integrity of that country, they're still responsible for their crimes 20 years ago etc.
While sure he's definitely trying to spin a particular path, Alterac canonically has 2 passes through it. This isn't really represented in game for various reasons, which is why I had to draw my own map. As such, you've got the 'main' pass, then youve got a lesser one, worse maintained etc, going up the coast of Lake Lordemere. As such the Dwarves aren't guarding the only pass, but there's a problem when I write stuff like this because Alterac Valley the battleground doesn't reall yhave a cannonical location, so I've just put it at that particular strategic pass.
It's not all immediate. The objectives now are to seize the main supply routes (ie the roads), and to maybe do some raids and stuff outwards. You don't have to wipe the whole country clear. Specifically:
Dathrohan (who may or may not be a dreadlord wink wink) wants a puppet king who he can keep very close, basically in a gilded cage, to preserve a degree of legitimacy to the other kings. He doesn't need to puppet him with an actual dreadlord because the Syndicate aren't that useful.
Let's say, for example that the Syndicate have a collective force of 2000, that's not tha tmuch compared with 600 orcs. The Syndicate are bandits, not an organised force. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but it's an entirely acheivable objective, so not Dathrohan trying to get Grok killed (not does Grok believe it to be that problematic).
Wouldn't just be you etc, there would be various officials and garrisons which you'd have authority over, but would be sort of on loan from Dathrohan.
Meh I mean I suppose, but it's not really the format of the vote right? Also, this is hardly a radical proposal, Grok has been acting as a mercenary ever since he first met Dathrohan and accepted his help.
Pretty much. As with the Hinterlands mini arc, you have broad objectives, both personal and potentially through the commission. Dathrohan wants Alterac pacified and productive, he doesn't necessarily want you to go around murdering everyone.
Keep questions coming if you have them etc.
Also, I've made a slight amend to the chapter, adding:
You were still reluctant. "I could not accept such a broad office, not without first consulting my father as clan chief." you managed.
The Grand Crusade nodded, "Very well." he began, "I will say this then: Act as a Captain of the Alliance in Alterac, and you may take whatever forces you wish, for the Stormpike will not deny your rank. Act in defence of Alliance forces if you hear calls for aid, but otherwise concentrate on the Syndicate. Root them out, deliver Perenolde to me. I lay no duty to you to carry war against the trolls or your own kind. Perhaps we might discuss that later, but for now, your only proactive action need be against the Syndicate."
This is to better establish that this would be a limited commission, subject to further discussion later. It would only oblige you to deal with the Syndicate, rather than having to fight anyone else.
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well at least balnazar doesn't seem to be planing to go the risen route which is good cause another undead faction was annoying granted I don't think once everyone found out he was a dreadlord
Yeah I read that book on it.
Fair enough.
SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
[X] Refuse the commission. You dislike embroiling yourself further in Alliance politics, no matter how convenient it is for Dathrohan. This will make getting through Alterac more difficult for a number of reasons.
Fuck 'em. As far as I'm concerned, being used as a political hatchet man in order for the Alliance to justify exterminating anything opposing their efforts in the region is both dishonourable and degrading. Beyond that, their offer of holding the position of 'Constable' is little more than a poisoned fruit, because even if Grok was was in recognised control in the long term, which I doubt would last or extent to the forces required to retain control, it still effectively pens in any Orcish or Horde forces in the Eastern Kingdoms into the economically poor region of Alterac and surrounded on all sides by future Alliance forces. If you don't think that the end future goal is to just use Alterac as a big pit to fork any Orcs in the EK into, then your a fool, not to mention that Thrall would be forced to respond if it appears that yet another Horde offshoot is forming in the EK, especially one that would involve his own clan.
Furthermore, fuck the Alliance, Alterac for the Alteraci people. Get the Frostewolves either on board or out, then go deal with more important stuff like the Lich King.
Fuck 'em. As far as I'm concerned, being used as a political hatchet man in order for the Alliance to justify exterminating anything opposing their efforts in the region is both dishonourable and degrading. Beyond that, their offer of holding the position of 'Constable' is little more than a poisoned fruit, because even if Grok was was in recognised control in the long term, which I doubt would last or extent to the forces required to retain control, it still effectively pens in any Orcish or Horde forces in the Eastern Kingdoms into the economically poor region of Alterac and surrounded on all sides by future Alliance forces. If you don't think that the end future goal is to just use Alterac as a big pit to fork any Orcs in the EK into, then your a fool, not to mention that Thrall would be forced to respond if it appears that yet another Horde offshoot is forming in the EK, especially one that would involve his own clan.
Furthermore, fuck the Alliance, Alterac for the Alteraci people. Get the Frostewolves either on board or out, then go deal with more important stuff like the Lich King.
Actually the important stuff is that undead blademaster who ganked our mentor. Lich King is really far off.
Can't readily say fuck the alliance when Grok has been getting rather close to some of them. The Alteraci are fighting a losing battle and Grok has already drawn first blood on them. Frostwolves meanwhile got to meet them first to see the current situation.
[X] Refuse the commission. You dislike embroiling yourself further in Alliance politics, no matter how convenient it is for Dathrohan. This will make getting through Alterac more difficult for a number of reasons.
I don't think that getting involved in Alliance Politics like this is a smart idea in the long run. Also being the Constable of the region would come with a lot of problems that would be as stated above a poisoned cup, it may look nice but it's too much of a hassle.
I don't think that getting involved in Alliance Politics like this is a smart idea in the long run. Also being the Constable of the region would come with a lot of problems that would be as stated above a poisoned cup, it may look nice but it's too much of a hassle.
Grok likes individual members of the Alliance not the Alliance as a whole.
Recruit and hatchet aren't the only options here. The frostwolves might be mobile enough we can simply get them passage to horde held areas.
The syndicate is a problem, no reason not to step on their necks a bit.
The trolls and to a lesser extent the ogres are the bigger issues.
The syndicate is a problem, no reason not to step on their necks a bit.
The trolls and to a lesser extent the ogres are the bigger issues.
Said individuals can be very high up in the alliance when Grok is already working for the Scarlets as a defacto mercenary.
Grok is also no longer of the horde thanks to being exiled.
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
"Alliance land"? Excuse me?
Aside from the fact that the Alliance formed not so long ago, the last time Alterac existed as an independent polity it aligned itself with the Horde.
Their banner bore the Horde crest alongside Perenolde's heraldry!
Granted, Aliden may be somehow trying to get back into Alliance (if you take his tabard into account), but Alterac has been occupied by Lordaeron and (maybe) Stromgarde after the war (to the point the Alteraci worked even with Ner'zhul's Horde in revenge!)
Unless you're speaking from Alliance supremacy perspective, no, I don't think the Alliance have any more right to Alterac than the Frostwolves. At best they are both invading armies. From a legitimist viewpoint, the nobility of Alterac is still alive in the Syndicate, along with the heir apparent, the Alliance literally refused to recognize him in order to place a puppet ruler, and, later, to annex Strahnbard to Lordaeron and whatever to Stormgarde (East Hilsbrad river sans Durnhold, maybe?).
The Stormpikes operate only on the "sovereign imperialistic imperative" by King Magni. They are pretty intently portrayed as the invading party everywhere, except for the Whitewolf RPG supplement, which assumed "orcs = bad".
Is that the new lore? From Chronicle? Based on the movie? Because I don't remember anything about Frostwolves taking part in the First War, or in any war against humans before the internment camps' rebellion.
[X] Refuse the commission. You dislike embroiling yourself further in Alliance politics, no matter how convenient it is for Dathrohan. This will make getting through Alterac more difficult for a number of reasons.
I know jack all about alliance-horde politics but it seems to me a bad idea to associate too much with the alliance especially when the task is to act as muscle against one's own people. I'd say it be best if we went in as an independent who can perhaps bring on board orcs and trolls who wish for a leader who isn't too tied to people who wish to engage in for lack of a better term in ethnic cleansing.
I know jack all about alliance-horde politics but it seems to me a bad idea to associate too much with the alliance especially when the task is to act as muscle against one's own people. I'd say it be best if we went in as an independent who can perhaps bring on board orcs and trolls who wish for a leader who isn't too tied to people who wish to engage in for lack of a better term in ethnic cleansing.
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[X] Refuse the commission. You dislike embroiling yourself further in Alliance politics, no matter how convenient it is for Dathrohan. This will make getting through Alterac more difficult for a number of reasons.
- Location
- barking
[X] Refuse the commission. You dislike embroiling yourself further in Alliance politics, no matter how convenient it is for Dathrohan. This will make getting through Alterac more difficult for a number of reasons.
changed my mind I want to talk to the trolls and while it might be possible if we take the offer helping against the scourge was one thing but helping them regain another kingdom that choose to join the horde is another also the people of atlerac might not like the idea of rejoining the alliance (we will still get rid of the syndiate because yeah no way to leave those guys in charge)
changed my mind I want to talk to the trolls and while it might be possible if we take the offer helping against the scourge was one thing but helping them regain another kingdom that choose to join the horde is another also the people of atlerac might not like the idea of rejoining the alliance (we will still get rid of the syndiate because yeah no way to leave those guys in charge)