Mammoth Apostate vs the World 1: "Lost in the Mist"

[Nixeu]

I'm all for starting a Navy, and reopening the Rig IF it can be held. I'm fairly certain build list has some kind of boats...

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Navies are useful. You want I should look up local naval bases? I don't think we'll luck out as hard as we did in TRvtW, where the GM was unaware of a major Naval yard on our doorstep, but you never know.

Actually...aside from Norfolk, I would think there'd be bases further south and west, on the Gulf of Mexico. Maybe in the Keys? And there could be museum ships around. The designs might be old, but older-style ships that go for armor and firepower over speed are actually pretty much what you want for Anti-Kaiju ships anyway. With modern materials and weapons, and older designs as a base, we could probably make some pretty effective ships for fighting Kaiju. The fact that we'd also get modernized battleships, hopefully, would just be a bonus.

Edit: No museum ships in the state, but there's more than a few up and down the coast. A couple in Texas, including an old battleship (Texas, of course), and Lexington, an old aircraft carrier. North Carolina has it's state-named battleship, too,

Edit 2: Alabama also has a Battleship at Mobile, again, named for the state.

 

[Smithsguild]

Navies are useful. You want I should look up local naval bases? I don't think we'll luck out as hard as we did in TRvtW, where the GM was unaware of a major Naval yard on our doorstep, but you never know.

Actually...aside from Norfolk, I would think there'd be bases further south and west, on the Gulf of Mexico. Maybe in the Keys? And there could be museum ships around. The designs might be old, but older-style ships that go for armor and firepower over speed are actually pretty much what you want for Anti-Kaiju ships anyway. With modern materials and weapons, and older designs as a base, we could probably make some pretty effective ships for fighting Kaiju. The fact that we'd also get modernized battleships, hopefully, would just be a bonus.

Edit: No museum ships in the state, but there's more than a few up and down the coast. A couple in Texas, including an old battleship (Texas, of course), and Lexington, an old aircraft carrier. North Carolina has it's state-named battleship, too,

Edit 2: Alabama also has a Battleship at Mobile, again, named for the state.

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You know Nixeu, I had never thought to look at museum ships. Know what attraction -Charleston- is home of ???

Patriots Point hosting the USS Yorktown CV-10 (WW2 era aircraft carrier), USS Laffey DD-724 (WW2 Destroyer) , & the USS Clamagore (WW2 submarine).

 

[BadKatt85]

Hmmmm, I wonder how pissed 'Deacon' would be we send a few Seal team equivalents in to either scuttle them, or liberate the Destroyer?

 

[Smithsguild]

No plans forwarded? Or are you all waiting for Badkatt to do the heavy lifting AGAIN...

 

[Fyrstorm]

Sorry! I've been busy with other stuff, and thus haven't really had time to review stuff or plan anything out.

 

[Smithsguild]

Sorry! I've been busy with other stuff, and thus haven't really had time to review stuff or plan anything out.

Click to shrink...

No problem was meant as PLAYFUL teasing...

 

[Smithsguild]

Did it ever occur to anyone; no one really KNOWS the state of the rig?

True you rigged it to scuttle, and your Combat Engineers are competent, but did you ever get confirmation (see signs of explosions, send a scout back out to confirm destruction, etc.) or are we merely 'assuming' successful destruction of an enemy (or potentially your own) asset?

(Having rigged the explosions to go off as a surprise for returning Cult followers as a booby trap, what if no one set foot on the rig? )



Edit: After all you stole his supertanker & his refinery ship, 2 not very easily replaced things that limit an oil rigs usefulness to near zero...

 

[Smithsguild]

Jude Socklau was having one of his worst days ever... (And anyone who knew Jude, knew that was saying something.)

"See the world in service to our Great Lord Cthulhu they said, serve the Esoteric Order of Dagon they said, the spoils of war were a sweet temptation". The only consolation was when he proved himself a faithful, useful servant, he was given a 'Fish-Wife'.

​

The last had literally saved his life... Rather than sleep and share his quarters on the rig she preferred to live in the waters near the rig, and lay with him on the diving deck under the stars. When those men from Savannah had shot him and he fell to the water, his Deep One wife had shared her breath below the water and when the sharks came from the blood in the water, they refused to dare her wrath once she shrieked at them.

Jude swore he was blessed when he survived to meet with the resupply boat that is until being the 'sole survivor' his presence was -requested- by the Deacon himself.

The meeting site was not exactly one to instill a sense of calm, the Deacon was touring the House of Pain and Penance a place for those that failed the Deacon or his lieutenants. A combination of medieval horror show and re-indoctrination center for those slow to toe the line and behave as good citizens should. It was the last place you wanted to admit an unpleasant truth, and more often than not it WOULD be the last place if your penance wasn't deemed sincere.

His wife's hearing below the water was amazing, she had warned Jude the rig was booby trapped and limiting more casualties HAD to be worth something, that the rig wasn't totaled should be enough to assure his life. HE HOPED...

 

[Cmd. Frost]

SON OF A BITCH, HOW DID WE MISS THAT! Right, screw it. It's 2 Am but I'm making a plan.

[]Plan: Coastline

[]: Clean 224 Rs

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale Laser weapons in conjunction with HEL.
[]Free K-Sciences Research: Research more efficient Kaiju harvesting methods.
[]Free Mist Life Sciences Research:
(I'm drawing a blank on this one, give ideas if you have them)
[]Hephaestus: Apply pre-purchased range upgrades to Mammoth
[]Free High Energy Lab: Research J-scale Laser weapons with help from J-tech.
[]Free Bureau Paranormal Research & Defense (Magic): Magic, what is it and can we use it to kill things?.

Six General actions (1 per Population) (+1/environmental bonus) :
[]Build The Iron Bitch. ??? Rs
[]Build 3 AK Patrol Torpedo Boats 600 Rs
[]Send the AKP's and Engineers to search the rig, restart oil drilling if it's safe to do so.
[]Upgrade manufacturing once 2000 Rs
[]Send people to fix the Titanium mine. ??? Rs
[]Upgrade the civilian shelters ??? Rs

I'll put the X's in once I get a Mist research action and costs.

 

[Smithsguild]

Bear with me @Cmd. Frost , I tried to quote appropriate sections in response formatting might suck, (you have been warned)

SON OF A BITCH, HOW DID WE MISS THAT! Right, screw it. It's 2 Am but I'm making a plan.

[]Plan: Coastline

[]: Clean 224 Rs

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale Laser weapons in conjunction with HEL.
[]Free High Energy Lab: Research J-scale Laser weapons with help from J-tech.

Click to shrink...

You mean like 'improving the tech' you know how to make because you have the plans for the 'Mastodon' Super Heavy?

Spoiler: link to superheavy page

Super Heavy Units

link in spoiler stupid Halloween theme is making all my text pumpkin orange.

[]Free K-Sciences Research: Research more efficient Kaiju harvesting methods.

Click to shrink...

Ambassador Kim also offers a city upgrade Manufacturing Augment - Kaiju Salvage Facility 1,000 R
Provides +10% additional Resources from a slain Kaiju, independent of Morale. Each further constructed facility adds +10% to the bonus Resource gain, to a maximum of + 100% (10 facilities). May purchase 1x per 2 population stat.

Click to shrink...

[]Free Mist Life Sciences Research:
(I'm drawing a blank on this one, give ideas if you have them)

[]Hephaestus: Apply pre-purchased range upgrades to Mammoth

Click to shrink...

They were used up last turn to these effects (listed below) you need at least 2 more successes to raise either stat... how many more do you need to purchase to get that? Depends on your rolls...

Dexterity 1 (3/5 successes). Used up 5 prepaid rolls
Ranged 1 (3/5 successes). Used up 5 prepaid rolls

Looks like stat upgrades may have to wait until next downtime...

Click to shrink...

[]Free Bureau Paranormal Research & Defense (Magic): Magic, what is it and can we use it to kill things?.

Six General actions (1 per Population) (+1/environmental bonus) :
[]Build The Iron Bitch. ??? Rs
[]Build 3 AK Patrol Torpedo Boats 600 Rs
[]Send the AKP's and Engineers to search the rig, restart oil drilling if it's safe to do so.
[]Upgrade manufacturing once 2000 Rs
[]Send people to fix the Titanium mine. ??? Rs
[]Upgrade the civilian shelters ??? Rs

I'll put the X's in once I get a Mist research action and costs.

Click to shrink...

"Iron Bitch"
800mm Artillery Emplacement [Defensive Mod]
3500 Resources
- Can not be deployed outside of a city. Does not benefit from city fortifications, it's just too big.
- Can not be moved once deployed
- 800mm "Iron Bitch" Howitzer: 1d10 Impact damage. +8 damage. Range 20, Hits on 7s. Will Not Cauterize Wounds,
Can fire indirectly, increasing its range to 120 units. Indirect fire is at -2 to hit.
The gun can only be fired every second turn

Jaeger Weapon"Iron Bitch Lite" Chest Module 2500 Resources
Jaeger redesign trades bonus damage for increased accuracy (hits on a 5+). May not move and fire the 'Iron Bitch' same turn.
1D10 Impact +4 Damage, range -/-/20,
Can fire indirectly, increasing its range to 80 units. Indirect fire is at -2 to hit.
The gun can only be fired every other turn. Will Not Cauterize Wounds.

Click to shrink...

The mine is not a matter of upgrading their EPA approved procedures, but more convincing them to scale back their production they are simply outpacing the systems ability to clean the waste, of course that means fewer shifts and less going into their profit sharing (IE this will require some diplomacy) No cost in Resources, just slightly less profits generated for Savannah and explaining to the hard working miners how they can't do their jobs as much, its bad for the wildlife...

As for upgrading the shelters :

Dispersed NBC Civilian shelters - positive pressure airlock doors seal the shelters & mitigate civilian casualty die roles. 1 AP vs all Casualty die rolls, 1 shelter purchase permitted per 2 points of population. 10 population = 5 shelters = 5 ap vs Casualty die rolls
cost: 300 r / per (Stacks with Defense City Stat AV)

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(OOC) I -think- I addressed everything...

 

[BadKatt85]

I don't mind HELPING with plans

SON OF A BITCH, HOW DID WE MISS THAT! Right, screw it. It's 2 Am but I'm making a plan.

[]Plan: Coastline

[]: Clean 224 Rs

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale Laser weapons in conjunction with HEL.
(Badkatt85 Edit) See why I disagree at HEL listing, finish MLRS, it's versatility is limited only by our missile/rocket arsenal.

[]Free K-Sciences Research: (BadKatt85 edit)
Continue research into how to safely work around Kaiju, maybe try chemical restraint? Possibly a multi-pronged sedation, general anesthetic combined anti-psychotics to block hive mind from nudging the 'patient' back to wakefulness. (Example: Ether & haloperidol)

Not limiting k science creativity, just explaining train of thought.

[]Free Mist Life Sciences Research:
(I'm drawing a blank on this one, give ideas if you have them)
(BadKatt85 edit) Distill the organ tentacle from the conjoined Kaiju in a non-destructive manner to harvest the science resistant luminous flecks, hopefully in larger concentrations and continue to try to understand them.


[]Hephaestus: Apply pre-purchased range upgrades to Mammoth
(BadKatt85 edit) @Smithsguild , since these are gone and we need more to make the needed successes is purchase of upgrades a separate action from the installation? If so can 1 action purchase multiple different stat upgrades? Rng/dex .

[]Free High Energy Lab: Research J-scale Laser weapons with help from J-tech.
(Badkatt85 edit) Here I totally disagree with you, I feel Doc Brown unlocking jet flight trumps any other work. But that's why we have a council, majority vote rules.

[]Free Bureau Paranormal Research & Defense (Magic): Magic, what is it and can we use it to kill things?.
(Badkatt85 Edit) how about something a bit more focused? Investigate the lead the enthusiastic geek supplied, the 'Voorish Sign' Or empowering sigils from the Chaat Aquadingen looking for more info from the Tome or from our newly acquired research library. (I.e. All independent mentions in our paranormal literature.

Six General actions (1 per Population) (+1/environmental bonus) :
[]Build The Iron Bitch. ??? Rs
(Badkatt85 edit) Bitch is expensive, but with 12 km stand off rng she outranges our next longest range by 8 km.(80 units)

[]Build 3 AK Patrol Torpedo Boats 600 Rs
[]Send the AKP's and Engineers to search the rig, restart oil drilling if it's safe to do so.
(BadKatt85 edit) Smith will want exact numbers, specifying who we are stationing out here, we'll also need to visit Liberty and get our Rig hounds back to operate the thing or at least train replacements.

I suggest borrow engineers to clear, and assign 1 AKP's, 4 auto sentries, 2 T-95 artillery, 1 avenger, 1 cobra, and 1 shiny new torpedo boat as rig is outside our radio range, (instead of manufacturing it might be better if we could extend comms to call for the cavalry.) Maybe even buy some of the Captor (torpedo mines) we use on the defensive perimeter. If we could purchase a standalone Hedgehog for the Rig to repel deep ones it would be helpful.


[]Upgrade manufacturing once 2000 Rs
(Badkatt85 Edit) Comms would be better $ spent to defend Rig.

[]Send people to fix the Titanium mine. ??? Rs
[]Upgrade the civilian shelters ??? Rs

I'll put the X's in once I get a Mist research action and costs.

Click to shrink...

@Cmd. Frost I edited in some suggestions for discussion and my arguments for changes. Not attempting to hijack your plan, just responding.

 

[Smithsguild]

@BadKatt85 said: (stupid quote broke for me)

(BadKatt85 edit) @Smithsguild , since these are gone and we need more to make the needed successes is purchase of upgrades a separate action from the installation? If so can 1 action purchase multiple different stat upgrades? Rng/dex .

construction/purchase is 1 action (regardless of how many or for which stats)

Installation is also 1 action

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BadKatt85 said: If we could purchase a standalone Hedgehog for the Rig to repel deep ones it would be helpful.

125 r / each.

 

[Smithsguild]

Comms 3 would get you to where you 'could' be in Comms contact with the rig, sensors would be blind but radios would function.

Edit: I meant Savannah's sensors would be blind that far away, vehicles have equivalent of sensors/comms 0. Functional out to 15 miles, crap details... but even w/o assistance a threat inbound -should- give adequate warning to deploy defenses on vehicles sensors alone.

Edit-edit: Discounting a tech savvy enemy using e-warfare

 

[Smithsguild]

Cmd.Frost said: "SON OF A BITCH, HOW DID WE MISS THAT!"

Usually when bullet riddled bodies hit water from 2 stories up, and then fails to surface it's unlikely that your first thought is "That s.o.b. is swapping spit with a half-fish..." followed by sharks in blood filled waters studiously ignoring one patch of ocean. YMMV

 

[HolyDragoon]

SOP for the future: Find something that can dispense a fucking whole lot of explosives, purge everything in a 1km radius.

 

[Smithsguild]

SOP for the future: Find something that can dispense a fucking whole lot of explosives, purge everything in a 1km radius.

Click to shrink...

I already gave you guys the MLRS for that, YOU need to research a 2-stage impact fuse for oceanic use. 1st impact (waters surface) arms the sub-munitions, 2nd impact (as the mini grenades sink and make contact with ANYTHING) detonates them. Rough on the local fishing shoals but should be scary effective human scale diver deterrent.

 

[Smithsguild]

Just a reminder of the effectiveness of the M270 when properly applied:

The previously unidentified anthropomorphic 'swimmers' now begin to trundle out along the northern most beach head of Tybee Island , they bring new meaning to the phrase "amphibious assault" as nearly two hundred muster up into platoon sized units before beginning their advance, when it appears the last stragglers have made landfall, a distant whump is heard and repeated at 3 second intervals 11 more times as the M270 shows why it's considered the Alpha 'in' alpha strikes.

Suddenly a 2 kilometer long stretch of beach a half a kilometer wide is peppered in small submunitions, some rare Deep Ones are dazed by a cluster bomb to the skull but it takes a moment before the timed delay synchronize and explode in unison throwing sparks of molten aluminum casing and glowing white phosphorus skyward only to rain a second later burning through flesh or bone with equal ease.

The area is saturated by the unwholesome aroma of blackened fish.

No signs of surviving Deep Ones remain...

Click to shrink...

 

[Nixeu]

Update on museum ships: closest one of any use is likely the aircraft carrier at Mount Pleseant in SC. Even that's a bit iffy, since older carriers aren't necessarily the same as modern ones, due to the lack of nuclear power. Still, they're certainly valuable for combat purposes, even so.

You know Nixeu, I had never thought to look at museum ships. Know what attraction -Charleston- is home of ???

Patriots Point hosting the USS Yorktown CV-10 (WW2 era aircraft carrier), USS Laffey DD-724 (WW2 Destroyer) , & the USS Clamagore (WW2 submarine).

Click to shrink...

There's also North Carolina, Texas, and Alabama. It's kinda surprising how many of the few remaining battleships are in the Gulf area/south. But not looking at museum ships is pretty understandable. The ships themselves are not going to bee made battle-ready feasibly. What they're more useful for is a base design for a gun focused ship. Most modern naval ships don't use artillery or guns for all that much, except maybe AA/point-defense, AFAIK. The focus has shifted to missiles and torpedos.

Against Kaiju, though, we're probably going to be using guns. Missiles don't do that much, without being nuclear. That's where things like energy weapons and railguns come into the picture. And those work quite nicely with older ship designs, albeit with the need to squeeze in a modern source of power.

SOP for the future: Find something that can dispense a fucking whole lot of explosives, purge everything in a 1km radius.

Click to shrink...

I really don't think that's a practical solution. It's likely to affect the environment. Really, this was an outlier. Probably a either a really bad roll for us, or a really good roll for him.

 

[Cmd. Frost]

[]Plan: Coastline v.2

[]: Clean 224 Rs

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale hand held firearms.
[]Free K-Sciences Research: Research better methods of capturing and containing Kaiju.
[]Free Mist Life Sciences Research: Distill the organ tentacle from the conjoined Kaiju in a non-destructive manner to harvest the science resistant luminous flecks, hopefully in larger concentrations and continue to try to understand them. (Thank you BadKatt)
[]Hephaestus: Upgrade Mammoth's ranged stat.
[]Free High Energy Lab: Research particulate resistant jet engines.
[]Free Bureau Paranormal Research & Defense (Magic): Investigate empowering sigils from the Chaat Aquadingen. (Again, thank you Katt)

Six General actions (1 per Population) (+1/environmental bonus) :
[]Search for more outposts
[]Build 5 AK Patrol Torpedo Boats 1000 Rs
[]Send the Engineers to restart the Oil Rig, get the original crew to come back on or train some replacements.
[]Upgrade comms once 1500 Rs
[]Scan for wandering Kaiju
[]Upgrade the civilian shelters 900 Rs

3000 Rs.

Usually when bullet riddled bodies hit water from 2 stories up, and then fails to surface it's unlikely that your first thought is "That s.o.b. is swapping spit with a half-fish..." followed by sharks in blood filled waters studiously ignoring one patch of ocean. YMMV

Click to shrink...

I meant searching the rig, how did we miss having our forces do a full search of the rig to make sure there weren't any cultists hiding out in storage rooms that could've disarmed the bombs. Or to make sure that the bombs we placed would be able to completely destroy the rig.

 

[Smithsguild]

I meant searching the rig, how did we miss having our forces do a full search of the rig to make sure there weren't any cultists hiding out in storage rooms that could've disarmed the bombs. Or to make sure that the bombs we placed would be able to completely destroy the rig.

Click to shrink...

@Cmd. Frost You didn't miss a soul ONBOARD the rig, one of the bodies that was shot and plummeted seemingly to his death in the waters below had a Deep One wife.

That was the purpose of this omake:

Spoiler: survivor omake

Jude Socklau was having one of his worst days ever... (And anyone who knew Jude, knew that was saying something.)

"See the world in service to our Great Lord Cthulhu they said, serve the Esoteric Order of Dagon they said, the spoils of war were a sweet temptation". The only consolation was when he proved himself a faithful, useful servant, he was given a 'Fish-Wife'.

​

The last had literally saved his life... Rather than sleep and share his quarters on the rig she preferred to live in the waters near the rig, and lay with him on the diving deck under the stars. When those men from Savannah had shot him and he fell to the water, his Deep One wife had shared her breath below the water and when the sharks came from the blood in the water, they refused to dare her wrath once she shrieked at them.

Jude swore he was blessed when he survived to meet with the resupply boat that is until being the 'sole survivor' his presence was -requested- by the Deacon himself.

The meeting site was not exactly one to instill a sense of calm, the Deacon was touring the House of Pain and Penance a place for those that failed the Deacon or his lieutenants. A combination of medieval horror show and re-indoctrination center for those slow to toe the line and behave as good citizens should. It was the last place you wanted to admit an unpleasant truth, and more often than not it WOULD be the last place if your penance wasn't deemed sincere.

His wife's hearing below the water was amazing, she had warned Jude the rig was booby trapped and limiting more casualties HAD to be worth something, that the rig wasn't totaled should be enough to assure his life. HE HOPED...

Click to shrink...

To let you know despite reasonable precaution on your part that a witness survived (below water and out of sight), and as the Combat Engineers were working to booby trap the rig that deep one could hear their conversations while safely below water. When you were safely gone she relayed that to Jude who was able to relay the danger to the resupply ship. No one on that ship wanted to go and try and disarm bombs without training so they took the survivor back to share the info with the Deacon.

The bombs you placed were (and supposedly still are) capable of destroying the rig no one from the cultists boarded the Rig to trigger them due to Jude's warnings.

Edit: I apologize if my storytelling was deficient in making the point clear, Lord knows I try to convey things clearly. Again my apologies.

 

[Smithsguild]

I think part of the disconnect we are suffering is, you might have missed where the Demo was to occur as part of a booby trap killing more cultists.

Now if they had just set plain old radio relay detonators or a timer, the rig would be littering the bottom of the ocean, but if no one triggers the booby trap it sits quietly rusting away awaiting an oblivious soul to come along...

 

[Smithsguild]

[X]Plan: Coastline v.2

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale hand held firearms.
[]Hephaestus: Upgrade Mammoth's ranged stat.


[]Send the Engineers to restart the Oil Rig, get the original crew to come back on or train some replacements.


3000 Rs.

Click to shrink...

Some small points before this plan is workable.

Total cost is 3,224 Rs you forgot to roll in cleanup cost, listed it but it is not added into the total.

[]Free J-Tech: Research J-scale hand held firearms.
It's nice if I have the broad strokes of what your generally looking for.
No particulars? Basic firearm is generally Impact and either a carbine or rifle and a reasonable internal storage of ammo.

But there are a multitude of damage types (Blunt, Edged, Impact, Burst, Fire or Acid, or specialties like Sonic, Ice, Electrical)
including combinations such as: impact/fire (impact is primary type for my charts / fire so the wounds get benefit of cauterization) Fire/impact on the other hand would check to see if we caught the target on fire... First listed = primary effect.

Range classes: Scatter, Carbine, Rifle, Sniper with appropriate range benefits & penalties

Then comes ammunition and loading, single shot, cylinder, clips, drums, belt fed.

[]Hephaestus: Upgrade Mammoth's ranged stat.

Must purchase/construct more upgrade stat rolls, you have 3 of 5 successes you need to get to range 1.

Research Improvements into Jaeger's Stats
Pick one of your stats. Buy up to 20 d10 rolls at 20 r/ each and a total of one action. Rolls of 10+Mark or higher give you advancement points towards improving that stat. Stats cost 5 points to go from 0 to 1, 10 points to go from 1 to 2, etc. You roll 1d10 + research bonus to see if you hit target number.

[]Send the Engineers to restart the Oil Rig, get the original crew to come back on or train some replacements.

After clearing the Booby traps

Are we going with permanently reassigning troops to the Rig as per Badkatt's suggestion? I will allow permanent reassignments as a free action as I've done in the past. Just need that portion listed in the plan to get a consensus approval.

 

[BadKatt85]

@Cmd. Frost We are almost in agreement, K-Science needs adjusted.

We have a captive atm successfully contained, my goal is to be able to safely study it.

That's why I went into detail about chemical restraint. Hard to wire him up if he eats the interns. Working in close proximity is how we will find out how his abilities operate.

Better capture methods ARE on my to do list for next test subject.

Edit : You want to use J tech to build a shiny new gun? Build a scatter electrical, stuns would be awesome for filling research with cat-0 & SSC subjects.

Edit : we could probably drop the general action for more outposts atm, Homeland checks each downtime for free.

Use that and buy 10 range rolls / 10 dex rolls for Mammoth.

 

[Smithsguild]

Homeland already found your outpost this turn -> Liberty.

General scavenged goods +150 R/turn

 

[Cmd. Frost]

Actually, before I change the plan Whitecap Triton just needs pilots now, right?

Because if we can get Triton online this turn then making Mammoth a generalist fighter seems like a waste.