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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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phil03 said:
Honestly, and with all due respect, starting a war alongside the evacuations seem like a terrible idea. The only reason rescuing Kimay is feasible is because, after the Congress of Gela and the Battle of Pharos, Eretria is reasonably free of any pressing concerns and the greeks of Italy and Sicily are at peace for the time being. Starting a war would disrupt all that and potentially overtax our ressources between fighting it, since I strongly doubt Rhegion and the others are gonna fight at our instigation if we don't join, organising the rescue and paying for the great work, as well as making a mess of the very region we need to be in good order to make the evacuation work/limit any incidents that might occur in the process.

If we are gonna go and try to redraw the map of Italia to better fit our interests we are better to wait for the evacuation to be dealt with and then see if the geopolitical skies are still clear. Even then I remain less then convinced it would be the right move as having an hostile Dauni kingdom on our northern flank seem like a greater concern then poor relationship with Lokri and, assuming no other threat and/or pressing concerns emerge in the meantime, we should probably do something about the former before the latter.
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I'm thinking this would be 10 or 20 years down the line, not right away.
 
Droman said:
I'm thinking this would be 10 or 20 years down the line, not right away.
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In that case maybe, depending on how things play out with Rhegion. It was specifically noted a few updates ago that Krotone was spoiling for a fight. Should Rhegion be interested in weakening Lokri, we should definitely direct Krotone that way. In fact, aiming Krotone's expansion westward, would be the best way to preserve our alliance with Thurii. Of course such a campaign would require us to expend both diplomatic capital, in the form of 1-2 actions, and manpower, although I suspect that a team up of Krotone and Rhegion could deal with Lokri on their own.
 
The quester tried to reduce the divide by removing slaves and instead ficussed it elsewhere. I hope that the metrics will never feel that bad that they revolt against the city. With the majority of the free man already metrics and only going to increase they could do it in time...
With the lower class firmly populated by metrics and a constant trend that it gets harder to make ends meet we are bound to run face first into problems that the citizen IC do not want to solve to the metrics statification...
 
The Adriatic colonialism provides something of a safety valve for that, however.

@Cetashwayo I can't recall, did we extend the limitations of slavery to the whole League, or can the other cities have slaves?
 
I imagine our own colonies copy our laws, but the ones founded separately and brought into the Epulian league later don't.
 
Nyvis said:
I imagine our own colonies copy our laws, but the ones founded separately and brought into the Epulian league later don't.
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They probably derive them to some degree at least though.
It will surely be interesting to look at.
Portec said:
The quester tried to reduce the divide by removing slaves and instead ficussed it elsewhere. I hope that the metrics will never feel that bad that they revolt against the city. With the majority of the free man already metrics and only going to increase they could do it in time...
With the lower class firmly populated by metrics and a constant trend that it gets harder to make ends meet we are bound to run face first into problems that the citizen IC do not want to solve to the metrics statification...
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Colonies will help, and metic-heavy approach probably made our finances more interesting, in that they are tenant farmers who pay stuff to us. Otherwise it'd be, uhh, landlords using slaves and paying taxes to us? Which is not materially different, but probably is still different.
 
There are obvious material differences between being a slave and a metic or even a slave and a serf. Being a slave is an inherently and totally dehumanizing situation and exists at the far end of the spectrum of bonded labour.

Even if an individual slave is better off than a free laborer, until they are free their position is generally an expression of the magnificence of their owner.
 
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So how does both parents needing to be citizens for their children to be, relate to honor of granting citizenship to a metic for heroic deeds?

As this pretty fundamentally removes one of the massive advantages of the reward that I believe most players thought the recipient was going to get, as while they are a citizen for however many years they have left to live, their children and future descendents don't receive anything except in the pretty much impossible scenario of that metic having married a citizen.
 
Our Metics, being free, make up a decent chunk of our levy and rowers, and it'd be notably more awkward trying to found new cities with our excess slave population.
 
Neptune said:
So how does both parents needing to be citizens for their children to be, relate to honor of granting citizenship to a metic for heroic deeds?

As this pretty fundamentally removes one of the massive advantages of the reward that I believe most players thought the recipient was going to get, as while they are a citizen for however many years they have left to live, their children and future descendents don't receive anything except in the pretty much impossible scenario of that metic having married a citizen.
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Hmm? Once a Metic is a citizen they are a citizen period. Their children will be citizens. When a metic is granted citizenship so will their wife and children. It is by household.
 
My main concern with pushing for an Italiote war would be that Taras will start thinking that our peace overtures were not genuine and we just wanted time to establish a hegemony (which tbf is kinda accurate). If not for that I would be all for waging a couple of wars where we make it clear that the Italiote secondaries are either woth us or agianst us.
 
ctulhuslp said:
They probably derive them to some degree at least though.
It will surely be interesting to look at.
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Oh yeah, exploring how they gradually transform the initial law package will be fascinating. Imagine someone writing a "comparative account of the laws of the Epulian cities".

ctulhuslp said:
Colonies will help, and metic-heavy approach probably made our finances more interesting, in that they are tenant farmers who pay stuff to us. Otherwise it'd be, uhh, landlords using slaves and paying taxes to us? Which is not materially different, but probably is still different.
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Much easier to tax poor people than rich ones, ironically.

Walker Of Chaos said:
My main concern with pushing for an Italiote war would be that Taras will start thinking that our peace overtures were not genuine and we just wanted time to establish a hegemony (which tbf is kinda accurate). If not for that I would be all for waging a couple of wars where we make it clear that the Italiote secondaries are either woth us or agianst us.
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Agreed here. We should not confirm the Italiotes' fears. Let's not forget Taras wasn't the only one worried. Everyone else banded together to tell us to can it.

I think we should try keeping the Italiotes feuding while we strengthen our own area of influence, rather than waste efforts fighting equals.
 
Imagine what it must be like to be one of those Metics granted citizenry, to know that your children will be Citizens, to be allowed to speak in the Assembly, and since those who become citizens are so few, your name will be notably amongst your friends and colleagues as well as at least a bit respected by other citizens.

Must be quite a trip really, especially with how much emphasis is put on the Sacred Nature of Citizenship and the sudden loss of a huge chunk of your taxes.
 
Eretrian citizen taxation is heavy on the rich. The rich pay almost all taxation and the poor pay very little, as in Athenai. The main relief is that the taxation is consistent rather than the more ad hoc liturgies of Athenai which bankrupted entire noble families in the Peloponnesian War, and generally lower thanks to the metic tax allowing citizen taxes to be lower.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Eretrian Taxation is heavy on the rich. The rich pay almost all taxation and the poor pay very little, as in Athenai. The main relief is that the taxation is consistent rather than the more ad hoc liturgies of Athenai which bankrupted entire noble families in the Peloponnesian War, and generally lower thanks to the metic tax allowing citizen taxes to be lower.
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Wait, how does that squares with Metics paying a lot of tax, if most of them are tenant farmers?

Is the tax burden on Metics more on the rich urban ones?
 
Nyvis said:
Wait, how does that squares with Metics paying a lot of tax, if most of them are tenant farmers?

Is the tax burden on Metics more on the rich urban ones?
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I was talking about citizens. Eretria has both a wealth based class system ( rich vs poor citizens) and a status based one (citizens vs metics). There are poor citizens and relatively prosperous metics who manage to get beyond their disadvantages.
 
Walker Of Chaos said:
My main concern with pushing for an Italiote war would be that Taras will start thinking that our peace overtures were not genuine and we just wanted time to establish a hegemony (which tbf is kinda accurate). If not for that I would be all for waging a couple of wars where we make it clear that the Italiote secondaries are either woth us or agianst us.
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An Italiote War would be to the benefit of Taras, if targeting cities they dislike or border. Etretian Talk no Jutsu only works when we have spoils to share.
 
Versharl said:
Is this some weeb thing that I don't get?
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How dare you. But yes. There's a fictional character who cuts impassioned speeches about things and usually converts his enemies to neutrals or friends on the basis of his passion and their dormant realization of how such massive assholes they've been. It's been jokingly described as 'talk no jutsu' (meaning The Talking Technique) for it's constant use.
 
Alias said:
Naruto, the main character of the Naruto manga, often make enemies into friends via talking to them. Though sometimes it requires giving them a beat down first.
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Talk no jutsu is explicitly all about talking while punching their face in. We could say that it's exactly what we did to our barbaroi vassals, but not really to most of the Italiotes or Sicilians.
 
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