- Location
- Luton Airport
Amber is the Enetoi, who we should hopefully have just improved our relationship with, after the successful joint anti-piracy action.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
@Cetashwayo, a question.
Do people still remember how exactly the Battle of 50 masts happened? To the point they remember Eusebios temporarily created a multi-hulled ship? If so, is the idea of the multi-hull still around? Enough that someone attempts to build a small multi-hull ship?
Do people still remember how exactly the Battle of 50 masts happened? To the point they remember Eusebios temporarily created a multi-hulled ship? If so, is the idea of the multi-hull still around? Enough that someone attempts to build a small multi-hull ship?
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
@Cetashwayo, do you have a recommended reading list for people interested in the period?
The Amber trade route mission to the Enetoi also negotiates land for a trade colony on the Venetian lagoon, which pretty much lays of a lot of the groundwork we'd need for relocating Kymai. So there's a great potential synergy.
- Location
- Central Europe
I wonder how the spot for relocating Kymai will be chosen. It could be that each of the Demoi will bring up their favoured location and that we won't be able to say, send Obander to the Enetoii. Should it work that way, I would expect the Venetian Lagoon, and its trade links, to be the favoured spot of Demos Drakonia. Exoria would probably favour a spot to contain the Liburni, so Pula or Split. Demos Antipatria might favor closer links to the southern Adriatic Greeks, so either Split or Dubrovnik.
That said, it is probably more likely that we choose both the Xenoparakletor and the relocation spot. With the consequent drawback, that some of those combinations will have worse modifiers than others.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It was a temporary measure during a battle. There hasn't been any experimentation with multi-hulls as a permanent creation since then.
General introductions which are made for a non-specialist audience:
Soldiers and Ghosts by J.E. Lindon, an excellent summary of the mentality and social aspect of war in ancient Greece and Rome.
Mediterranean Anarchy, Interstate War, and the Rise of Rome by Arthur Eckstein, an examination of the rise of Rome from the point of view of the field of International relations.
The Greeks Overseas by John Boardman, an archaeological and cultural discussion of Greek colonies across the Mediterranean in the period before Alexander.
The Rise of the Greeks by Michael Grant, covering Greek history in the archaic history. One of the most in-depth examinations of the Greek world as a whole that's available to non-academics, rather than just the major players.
SPQR, a general history of Rome from its beginnings to the end of the Empire by Mary Beard.
Rise of Rome by Kathryn Lomas, which focuses on Italy from the bronze age to the Pyrrhic Wars and tries to place Rome in a wider Italian context.
For those with cash or prior background in the period, Alexander to Actium by Peter Green is a frighteningly long and comprehensive tome covering the entire Hellenistic period from the death of Alexander to the Battle of Actium. It is an extraordinary and magisterial work and there's really nothing like it in the classics.
I don't actually have any one book to recommend for classical Greece specifically. Unfortunately there aren't any big surveys of the period and I haven't had the money to buy more classical history books.
Finally, for a purely visual tour of Classical Greek cities, I am going to no-joke recommend Assassin's Creed Odyssey. It is lacking in historical accuracy in a lot of ways, given it's a video game, but the way that it brings the world of the period, and especially the city of Athenai to life is nothing short of breathtaking. There is simply no better visual representation of Classical Greece as it was than Odyssey. I haven't even bought the game yet since I can't justify spending 80 bucks on it, but I will watch people explore its cities on youtube if I ever need inspiration.
I have to say I think it would be wise to ask the Kymians what they want before we decide on a settlement for them. I get that a Greek Venetia is an attractive idea to us but I am not sure if the same holds true for those you want to settle there en-masse since I am not so sure if the Lagoon is that attractive for a group consisting of several thousand used to the fertile valleys of Campania. Especially with it likely being slanted towards non-military age males.
And I think the Enetoi probably will think twice about allowing such a large settlement on their border, even if they like us at the moment. It is one thing to have a trading outpost /colony consisting of a few hundred people but something else to have a city of several thousand with the military and navy that comes with it.
And I think the Enetoi probably will think twice about allowing such a large settlement on their border, even if they like us at the moment. It is one thing to have a trading outpost /colony consisting of a few hundred people but something else to have a city of several thousand with the military and navy that comes with it.
I figured some of the Kymians would go to Eretria as metics, while others would go to our colonies as new citizens, and lastly but likely only around half would start a new colony. Its unlikely for a new colony to be able to support that maany new citizens as everything still needs to be built and set up.
As they get evacuated in bits and pieces, they are also likely to splinter off to other destinations(colonies and Eretria) in bits and pieces.
As they get evacuated in bits and pieces, they are also likely to splinter off to other destinations(colonies and Eretria) in bits and pieces.
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- Location
- Hell
These detailed recommendations are great and might be a good addition to the bibliography at the start of the Quest; alternately you may want to threadmark this post.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah.
In the Liburnii (the same guys we fought in the Battle of the Fifty Masts, and recently), we're fighting a culture that strongly reminds me of a Bronze Age iteration of the Vikings. They're good fighters and good seafarers, but their ships are designed to transport raiders and threaten merchantmen, not to fight pitched battles at sea against large fleets of professional fleet-fighters.
Our ability to easily defeat swarms of Liburnii pentekonters should not be taken as evidence of our ability to defeat Corinthian triremes.
It would probably work very badly. There's a reason that in real life, that simply wasn't done in the Mediterranean world, except perhaps for a handful of very large juggernaut-flagships constructed as showpieces by kings of the Hellenistic period.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
It's pretty bad if you intend to use oars yes. Multi-hulls can be impressive on sail vessels though.
- Location
- his hidden lair
And galleys of some variation dominated the Mediterranean for what- about two millenia from our current point of time? Me thinks the catamaran and trimaran aren't going to make it big here.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Liburnian Pentekontors actually make a major comeback in the Roman period. Liburnian pentekontors were instrumental in Octavian's victory against Mark Antony at Actium.
But the reason why they make a comeback is that ships become large enough to fit artillery on them in the Hellenistic period, and then that artillery becomes small enough by the late Republic that you can even fit them on Liburni, the ships named after our Illyrian pirate friends.
The general progression is Pentekontor > Bireme > Trireme > Quinquireme/Quadrireme > Liburni .
Which is a funny progression but also represents the technological developments. Ships got more and more seaworthy and more and crewed and complicated, and then became floating fortresses with heavy rams and massive crews by the Quinquireme, and then they shrink down again as the growing portability of artillery makes smaller ships possible. Then during the Roman Empire they abandon any ship except for Liburni because it's pretty unnecessary, and much of the expertise to make bigger warships in the classical style is lost.
And then in the medieval period they have ships that are strong and stable enough that the ship itself stops becoming a precise weapon and more of a transport ship that can moonlight as a weapon. Venetian galleys are often even used to transport goods, whereas classical ships were rarely good for anything else than warfare, since they were so light and had such a heavy crew load. Medieval galleys can also power-sail, which is a combination of rowing and sailing, and gives them a crazy maneuverability boost, whereas classical warships took their sails down before combat.
And then cannons come and briefly make galleys even more awesome, but as cannons get better and you can fit more of them in, galleys run out of space to fit cannons while sailing ships keep fitting cannons, and then they begin to decline.
But the reason why they make a comeback is that ships become large enough to fit artillery on them in the Hellenistic period, and then that artillery becomes small enough by the late Republic that you can even fit them on Liburni, the ships named after our Illyrian pirate friends.
The general progression is Pentekontor > Bireme > Trireme > Quinquireme/Quadrireme > Liburni .
Which is a funny progression but also represents the technological developments. Ships got more and more seaworthy and more and crewed and complicated, and then became floating fortresses with heavy rams and massive crews by the Quinquireme, and then they shrink down again as the growing portability of artillery makes smaller ships possible. Then during the Roman Empire they abandon any ship except for Liburni because it's pretty unnecessary, and much of the expertise to make bigger warships in the classical style is lost.
And then in the medieval period they have ships that are strong and stable enough that the ship itself stops becoming a precise weapon and more of a transport ship that can moonlight as a weapon. Venetian galleys are often even used to transport goods, whereas classical ships were rarely good for anything else than warfare, since they were so light and had such a heavy crew load. Medieval galleys can also power-sail, which is a combination of rowing and sailing, and gives them a crazy maneuverability boost, whereas classical warships took their sails down before combat.
And then cannons come and briefly make galleys even more awesome, but as cannons get better and you can fit more of them in, galleys run out of space to fit cannons while sailing ships keep fitting cannons, and then they begin to decline.
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Wonder if there's any chance of Quinquiremes/Quadriremes coming up in this quest. It'd be fun seeing that kind of naval arms race and how they change up warfare.
Then again, Eretrian Triremes seem to emphasize being smaller, but faster and more maneuverable than mainstream ones, so it seems like that progression of warfare isn't something Eretria would be the first to pick up on (unless someone tries for something like having a few big ships supported by smaller, faster ones; but I'm not sure if that works in Classical Naval Warfare.)
Then again, Eretrian Triremes seem to emphasize being smaller, but faster and more maneuverable than mainstream ones, so it seems like that progression of warfare isn't something Eretria would be the first to pick up on (unless someone tries for something like having a few big ships supported by smaller, faster ones; but I'm not sure if that works in Classical Naval Warfare.)
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
When that happens obviously that'll be a problem for Eretria because Eretria's triremes will not be able to ram the hull of a quinquireme as it is too thick, but that's still check more than a hundred turns away
- Location
- Luton Airport
Fun factoid - you couldn't actually "sink" a classic trireme, they were so lightly built the wreckage floated.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
That emphasis we're going for is good for killing scores of pentekontors, not the huge beasts that quinquiremes are -- honestly, we're probably going to have serious issues recovering from a naval disaster, because our ships are built in such a way that it doubles-down on having a large group of exceptionally well-drilled rowers. If we have to throw a bunch of roughly-trained men onto spares built in this fashion, they'll do substantially worse than they would have with ordinary triremes.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. Another incentive for us to be early adopters of mechanical artillery, if we can find a way.
I mean, wouldn't that be true of pretty much any wooden hull design that doesn't include a lot of metal fastenings?
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Oh Eretria will have been sacked by Rome long before that point.When that happens obviously that'll be a problem for Eretria because Eretria's triremes will not be able to ram the hull of a quinquireme as it is too thick, but that's still check more than a hundred turns away
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Rome doesn't make the Dauni a tributary as part of their strategy of Samnite encirclement until well until the Second Samnite Wars in the 410s. So you have a little over a hundred years
- Location
- Luton Airport
It's more that triremes were built shell first, with not much in the way of heavy skeleton ribbing holding them together, so if you smash the shell of the hull apart, the bits float, whereas a heavy skeleton ship can retain structural integrity whilst shipping water inside and lose enough buoyancy to sink.
- Location
- Central Europe
@Cetashwayo Since it wasn't really touched on during the Congress update, I have been wondering how the minor citiy states on the northern coast of Sicily (Kale Akte, Lipara and Mylai) fit into the Heptarchy? Do Himera/Rhegion have some form of hegemony over (parts of) the region? Will the Greek presence there be expanded as a consequence of the common War on the Sikels?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Presumably it'll be expanded, but the small cities have no real way of contesting the Heptarchy and no votes. If the city has the same color as Rhegion its fill, like Mylai, then it's under Rhegion's control. But Lipara and Kale Akte are independent cities no one bothers precisely because they're small and out of the way.
That may change now.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
That's one more reason to double down and grow our fleet now that we can so that we can either send smaller fractions as sufficient expeditions and have backup, or send it all if there's a real threat and avoid a defeat all together.