Hey, @Cetashwayo, will we get a trade route with Pharos or Issa, or is that likely to be something which will take a few years for the volume of commerce to ramp up?
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
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- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
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- Across the Horizon
You won't automatically get a trade route with a colony, no.
I mean the only cases where I see a war with Lokri as something really strategically and politically useful is if we either want to subjugate all of the western greeks and use the war to gain a stronger foothold there and divide the local powers (if we are lucky that is) or if we want to help one of the local powers there to assume hegemony in the region to ensure a strong power block exists and is allied to us. Something like strengthen the alliance with Thurii and help it to establish an "italian" league by force might be an viable alternative to trying to do establish an allied league there like that via diplomacy. Of course either way carries the risk that other powers will become involved too early and I personally would rather prefer on the Adriatic and even large powers like Carthage or Persia (I mean I wouldn't say no if the later would gives us some money with the idea behind of limiting Athenians westward expansion though I am unsure if that would a valid threat worth countering in Persias eyes or if they view anything west of Anatiolia as worthless wasteland inhabited by barbarians)
How does everyone feel about taking 8 Triremes from our Reserve to bring us up to a total active of 30 or taking 13 from the Reserves and bringing our total to 35 which would match the ship strength of Syrakousai? In either case, I would advocate that we replenish the Reserve during the next four years and even expand it from its current 15 to 20 Reserve Triremes.
We will need the extra ships aid with the Kymai situation and as a general strengthening of our Navy with our increased colonial obligations. More is always better but I don't know how much this would stretch our finances and its already a large drain on our available fighting men with us needing an extra 1200 Rowers if we go for an Active Force of 30 Triremes or an extra 1950 Rowers if we go for a force of 35.
We will need the extra ships aid with the Kymai situation and as a general strengthening of our Navy with our increased colonial obligations. More is always better but I don't know how much this would stretch our finances and its already a large drain on our available fighting men with us needing an extra 1200 Rowers if we go for an Active Force of 30 Triremes or an extra 1950 Rowers if we go for a force of 35.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It's not really a big drain on your fighting men given it's subtracting from your massive force of psilloi you can't maintain in the field for anything near to a full campaign. You could recruit 6,000 rowers without significantly impacting your fighting strength.
Then as long as our finances hold, I would definitely advocate going for the full 35 or whatever our strategoi think is advisable. Would us taking Triremes from the Reserve with a gradual replenishment and expansion of the REserve be in line with the thinking of the times or would they prefer to always keep a significant reserve?
There's always the balancing act between a large army/navy and income which we would use to further our goals and/or build Great Works.
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More so, our naval tradition is a big part of who we are and as a trading power trying to colonize and control the Adriatic we need a fleet to do so. Plus we have first hand experience last thread what happens when our fleet is not big enough.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I've edited the front page. Several important choices from the game so far have been added to the front page (like the Metic Laws, the colonial laws, the Epulian League, and the festival calendar). I've also edited the military mechanics to reflect the changes I talked about in the State of the Mediterranean update.
Finally, I've added monopoly trade routes as a special trade route in the game. Monopolies are rare but extremely lucrative trade routes that give you the full value of that type of trade route; 25 talents for a luxury trade route and 15 talents for a staple trade route. This is meant to represent that states kept far tighter control over these monopoly routes and leased them out to contractors rather than simply collecting harbor and agora fees from the normal course of trade.
Finally, I've added monopoly trade routes as a special trade route in the game. Monopolies are rare but extremely lucrative trade routes that give you the full value of that type of trade route; 25 talents for a luxury trade route and 15 talents for a staple trade route. This is meant to represent that states kept far tighter control over these monopoly routes and leased them out to contractors rather than simply collecting harbor and agora fees from the normal course of trade.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Speaking of trade...
Looking this over, don't we only have 8 Maritime Trade Routes, not 9? The six staples and the two Luxuries, with the other two Staples being Land Trade Routes (unless Land Trade Routes count for half a Maritime one.)
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Woops, that's just a mistake in the listing. It has no effect on the actual income as on the spreadsheet it's just calculated as 9 staple routes. I'll fix it next turn, probably by adding another staple route to the Athenian grain trade.
Thanks!
Isn't it 9 with South Italy getting both Anchovies & Wine?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
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- Across the Horizon
It's only a single route. The part in parentheses is just the main trade goods Eretria is exporting.
Given our expanding Adriatic footprint, a larger fleet seems very prudent right now. Increasingly our wealth is going to come from trade, and trade needs a strong fleet to protect it. Skill tends to matter more than numbers in trireme battles, as Athens has demonstrated numerous times. But twenty two ships is just too few to do all the jobs we would need in a major naval war, I think, or have robustness against losses even from accidents.
- Location
- Philippines
"Rule Eretria! Eretria rules the waves!
Hellenes shall never never never be slaves!"
Iskandar Xanatos paused, hands trembling in shock. A fey mood has overtaken him. "I have been struck by Civic Foolishness, haven't I?"
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Well, a bit of an idle if interesting thought. From what Cetashwayo has said, there apparently weren't that many aristoi on the boats from Eretria. And then the leading one, Ambrosios, was sidelined after the afexi and died without direct heirs. The aristoi were thus leaderless and shocked and had suffered a lot of blows in the revolutionary development of Eretrian democracy until Drako stepped up and saved their place in the city.
And from what I recall Drako wasn't originally aristoi, or if he was he was a marginal member of the class. He'd fought in the phalanx as a junior officer in the retreat, still a young man at the time. But his example came to dominate the aristoi of Eretria (and people aspiring to be aristoi, like Kallias) through his political success. Aside from his flexibility in embracing commerce and leading the rest of the aristoi in that direction, though, his personal character and political style solidified the ideal of a cross-class commitment to further the best interests of the city, as well as providing an example of magnamity in victory, and pious but not overweening rectitude.
So how much of that is because Drako recreated the entire aristoi class in the idealized image of what the hoplite class thought the aristoi should be?
And from what I recall Drako wasn't originally aristoi, or if he was he was a marginal member of the class. He'd fought in the phalanx as a junior officer in the retreat, still a young man at the time. But his example came to dominate the aristoi of Eretria (and people aspiring to be aristoi, like Kallias) through his political success. Aside from his flexibility in embracing commerce and leading the rest of the aristoi in that direction, though, his personal character and political style solidified the ideal of a cross-class commitment to further the best interests of the city, as well as providing an example of magnamity in victory, and pious but not overweening rectitude.
So how much of that is because Drako recreated the entire aristoi class in the idealized image of what the hoplite class thought the aristoi should be?
- Location
- USA
Not to mention that even if skill is more important then numbers, numbers allows us to cover more then one area. That is athens big advantage, both being top end skill wise as well as having the fleet to hit at multiple targets at the same time while still keeping some for city defense. A bigger fleet would have let us hit the pirates while still dueling Taras at sea for example.
Twenty two ships honestly makes things rather tight in terms of both doing trade protection or attacking enemy commerce and retaining enough of a fleet-in-being to threaten another power, or engage in naval battles. It can probably do one of those jobs, but not both at once, and it's quite fragile to losses.
Also, whilst it's true that skill definitely can definitely beat large numerical odds, I suspect that all else being equal, or when the difference in skill is only small, numbers still help. Athens winning such amazing victories against long odds is meant to demonstrate that they're really good. From the last update it appears that Athens also really rates our ship design, and is carefully studying it, which is both concerning and reason for confidence. But not overconfidence.
If forced, I would sail against a Korinthian fleet with thirty of our ships against fifty or sixty of theirs, and do so with a reasonable hope of victory.
I'm not sure we could do so with only twelve.
- Location
- Philippines
Bah! That's defeatist talk!
Perhaps another Eusebios can come and repeat the legendary 50 Masts?
Eh, I would argue that it is less our ship design and more the training of our people, both rowers and officers, that gives us an advantage. But I also think that we shouldn't overestimate this and going for 1v2 battles against proven naval powers like Korinth seems stupid if we can avoid it. All it takes is one mistake, one bad roll and our fleet and rowers are history. I mean just look at Athens and how its fleets were far from unbeatable and lost to Sparta depsite trouncing them a few years before. And then there is the fact that our ships should logically largely be designed and experienced in warfare against the threats of the Adriatic and those are not necessarily comparable to Greek or Phoencian enemies. Sure we beat Taras but that was a single event against an enemy who got unlucky and didn't focus to much on its navy.
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Looks like we are gonna have go for a 40 ship fleet to ensure we can lock down the Adriatic as our sphere of interest against other powers. 40 triremes will require ...
... 6,000 rowers, which will be deducted from our growing pool of 12,851 Psilloi (as of OL353). The lost manpower isn't much of an issue, however the additional rower wages are.
... 136 Talents of peacetime upkeep (currently 74.8). This will be a huge drain on our annual budgets. I would suggest we combine this expansion in naval power with a strong push for increased trade revenues (currently 88.8). Since both our expanded fleet, and the additional trade routes to fund it, will require more space, the expansion of Byssos Harbor would take increased priority. In my opinion, we should always ensure that our trade income at least covers our peacetime rower wages. Otherwise, our fleet would be a net-loss to our economy, not even taking into account the costs of anti-pirate actions.
Furthermore, a quick look in the spreadsheet indicates that 1.5k population is the rough number around which a colony will provide a trireme. Assuming that this is a relative constant ratio (Ankon has Murex so it might not), we would require ~15k "colonial" population to add a further 10 triremes. Currently (after winning choices, but before population growth), we have ~ 1.2k in both Ankon & Pharos and 600 in Issa. While the new "Colonial Laws of Linos" will surely help boosting these low initial number, relocating the people of Kymai will be our best bet to quickly achieve a League naval-levy of 10 ships. Should we succeed in convincing ~7.500 of their people to relocate to a new Adriatic polis under our protection, then this new settlement alone (after a certain "establishment-period") would be able to contribute half of the League navy I'm looking for.
This would bring our total naval strength to 50 triremes, which is in my opinion the upper limit of what we can realistically achieve in the medium term. While this is still far from the massive fleets of Korinthos (90) or Athens (250), these powers also have many other areas of interest to defend. Even when at "peace" with Athens, I doubt Korinth could spare to send significantly more than 60 ships to Adriatic and 5 to 6 are at least acceptable odds to me.
... 6,000 rowers, which will be deducted from our growing pool of 12,851 Psilloi (as of OL353). The lost manpower isn't much of an issue, however the additional rower wages are.
... 136 Talents of peacetime upkeep (currently 74.8). This will be a huge drain on our annual budgets. I would suggest we combine this expansion in naval power with a strong push for increased trade revenues (currently 88.8). Since both our expanded fleet, and the additional trade routes to fund it, will require more space, the expansion of Byssos Harbor would take increased priority. In my opinion, we should always ensure that our trade income at least covers our peacetime rower wages. Otherwise, our fleet would be a net-loss to our economy, not even taking into account the costs of anti-pirate actions.
Furthermore, a quick look in the spreadsheet indicates that 1.5k population is the rough number around which a colony will provide a trireme. Assuming that this is a relative constant ratio (Ankon has Murex so it might not), we would require ~15k "colonial" population to add a further 10 triremes. Currently (after winning choices, but before population growth), we have ~ 1.2k in both Ankon & Pharos and 600 in Issa. While the new "Colonial Laws of Linos" will surely help boosting these low initial number, relocating the people of Kymai will be our best bet to quickly achieve a League naval-levy of 10 ships. Should we succeed in convincing ~7.500 of their people to relocate to a new Adriatic polis under our protection, then this new settlement alone (after a certain "establishment-period") would be able to contribute half of the League navy I'm looking for.
This would bring our total naval strength to 50 triremes, which is in my opinion the upper limit of what we can realistically achieve in the medium term. While this is still far from the massive fleets of Korinthos (90) or Athens (250), these powers also have many other areas of interest to defend. Even when at "peace" with Athens, I doubt Korinth could spare to send significantly more than 60 ships to Adriatic and 5 to 6 are at least acceptable odds to me.
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Innovation in ship design is reflective of our wider naval culture and the priority we place upon it. We can't compare training like-for-like with other cities because that kind of mindset doesn't exist in this time period. We have to use the indicators available to us.
Of course, in a perfect world we'd like to have equal or near-equal numbers against any opponent we go up against. We might also want a winged Pegasus, but we don't always get what we want. Certainly this is not an argument for a smaller fleet, which was what I was trying to say, so I think we're of a like mind here.
The record of Athens does not indicate that numbers aren't an advantage, just that against a significant skill gap they are not usually the decisive advantage. This is word of GM, as well as historically accurate, so we don't need to try and re-derive our own conclusions here from first principles.
Of course naval battles are always a gamble, and so no one is likely to win forever. Again, my point was that we want a bigger fleet even assuming we possess a skill advantage against most enemies, so we're in agreement here.
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I remember they're was mention of an amber trade route we might set up, perhaps we can find way to revisit the possibility. That and getting the Messappii to pay tribute would be a good place to start fiscal-wise.
On a broader level I do feel its worth mentionning that Athens is very much doing Zeus work for us at the moment. Not only has their sheer power and presence in Naupactus been maintaining on Corinth the geopolitical and military pressure without which our commercial and colonial expansion wouldn't have been possible but their newfound control of the entry of the Gulf of Corinth is probably strangling their commerce as well.
The longer Athens keep them bottled there the more damage their trade network sustain, the more the medditerranean economy is getting use to work without them/with a far lesser participation for Korinthos, the more their decline get accelerated and the more chances Eretria has to continue replacing Corinth in many trade networks.
All that to say that, from an Eretrian POV, it would be best if the first phase of the Peloponesian War could drag a bit longer...
On a broader level I do feel its worth mentionning that Athens is very much doing Zeus work for us at the moment. Not only has their sheer power and presence in Naupactus been maintaining on Corinth the geopolitical and military pressure without which our commercial and colonial expansion wouldn't have been possible but their newfound control of the entry of the Gulf of Corinth is probably strangling their commerce as well.
The longer Athens keep them bottled there the more damage their trade network sustain, the more the medditerranean economy is getting use to work without them/with a far lesser participation for Korinthos, the more their decline get accelerated and the more chances Eretria has to continue replacing Corinth in many trade networks.
All that to say that, from an Eretrian POV, it would be best if the first phase of the Peloponesian War could drag a bit longer...