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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

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ChaoticSky said:
On the subject of space travel vs dimensional travel; it's a some what novel note that this sorta thing is one possible solution to the Fermi Paradox. Megacivilizations should be very noticeable, but we can't see any, anywhere. But if they can step sideways to expand them there is no reason to move offworld or build things like Dyson spheres.
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It's not actually a solution to the Fermi Paradox, at best it delays things. Unless the dimensions are infinite, in which case you run into Infinite Improbability Issues, any dimensional empire will run out of space eventually and have to start expanding out spatially as well as dimensionally.

It's hard to estimate how population growth will happen in the future since a lot of things are in flux. So instead I shall draw upon long term historical data which puts long range population growth at 0.04% per year.

That is not much however over the long term even such a small rate of growth adds up. Lets say on average any given world in the Dimensional Sea can sustain a population of a billion people. You could argue this is a lowball since I've seen estimates that put the peak population for Earth at 10 trillion (overheating becomes a probably above this) but we don't see the ecumenopolises or arcologies needed for such population in MGLN and there are going to be plenty of planets which sustaining large numbers of people wouldn't be worth it so I figure a billion is a reasonable figure. Besides as you'll see shortly the population per planet doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

If we start with a homeworld population of a billion before beginning to spread out through dimensional space then after just a a hundred thousand years they are at 234 trillion trillion (2.34*10^26) people and cover 233 million billion (2.33*10^17) worlds. A hundred thousand years is nothing on the scale of the universe. The dinosaurs ruled the Earth for around 135 million years before the KT extinction event. Meanwhile just a million years at 0.04% population growth takes the population up to the point where scientific notation is the only way to talk about such large populations. Specifically we're talking 4.82*10^182 people spread over 4.82*10^173 worlds. Given that the upper estimates for the number of atoms in the observable universe are in the 10^82 range we've well and truly crossed into the realm of ludicrously large numbers.


So unless there is an infinite amount of new dimensions (see Infinite Improbabilities Issues) or species exterminating cataclysms are frequent enough to ensure no species can grow sufficient large enough it doesn't take that long for even the various dimensions to run out of space. At which point expansion into space is inevitable.
 
landcollector said:
So, unreasonable demands it is, then. Pity.
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That's my view on this whole deal as well. The TSAB is great, but ultimately I doubt Taylor would be entirely for abandoning Earth Bet to ruin when there exists the possibility of doing something about it. Pushing Bet towards developments that would let it join the TSAB is the best option.

beege said:
If you want utopia handed to you on a silver platter disappointment is inevitable.
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How is working towards something over a century or three "wanting utopia handed to you"?
 
landcollector said:
That possibility is so small as to be inconsequential. We can't affect the global changes Shaseyu (and you?) want, we're only one person and badly lack the myriad of skill sets needed to even begin such an attempt.
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We have the eye and attention of Alexandria and Dragon, who do have the power and skill sets to change the world. And again, we have been doing Magic for less than a year at this point, this plan is mainly looking into the future. We are not trapped in comic book stasis, we can start to try and build towards things in the future.
 
serra2 said:
We have the eye and attention of Alexandria and Dragon, who do have the power and skill sets to change the world. And again, we have been doing Magic for less than a year at this point, this plan is mainly looking into the future. We are not trapped in comic book stasis, we can start to try and build towards things in the future.
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Alexandria has much less of a pull than normal, since Cauldron is more or less dead in the water with Doctor Mother and Contessa dead.

On the other hand, there's much less "greater good" to fulfill with Scion gone as well, so she's probably going to be more willing to try and make the world better instead of just surviving.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
Alexandria has much less of a pull than normal, since Cauldron is more or less dead in the water with Doctor Mother and Contessa dead.

On the other hand, there's much less "greater good" to fulfill with Scion gone as well, so she's probably going to be more willing to try and make the world better instead of just surviving.
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This is almost certainly epilogue stuff anyway, we're unlikely to significantly reform the world in the scope of the quest.
 
serra2 said:
That's my view on this whole deal as well. The TSAB is great, but ultimately I doubt Taylor would be entirely for abandoning Earth Bet to ruin when there exists the possibility of doing something about it. Pushing Bet towards developments that would let it join the TSAB is the best option.


How is working towards something over a century or three "wanting utopia handed to you"?
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If I understand Shaseyu's complaint correctly, he's pissed at the TSAB for not providing said utopia.
 
beege said:
If I understand Shaseyu's complaint correctly, he's pissed at the TSAB for not providing said utopia.
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He's pissed at the TSAB for not even trying to help. Right now the only thing they're doing is helping to fight the Endbringers. Which is great, yeah, but we know that they want us alone to join them, and we want them to bring our home along for the journey. Reforming it is a monumental task, however, and we need help. So either they help us reform our civilization over countless decades, or they don't, but they're not taking us from our home before it happens.
 
Archeo Lumiere said:
He's pissed at the TSAB for not even trying to help. Right now the only thing they're doing is helping to fight the Endbringers. Which is great, yeah, but we know that they want us alone to join them, and we want them to bring our home along for the journey. Reforming it is a monumental task, however, and we need help. So either they help us reform our civilization over countless decades, or they don't, but they're not taking us from our home before it happens.
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You're being just as unreasonable as Shaseyu, then.
 
I'd be fine with the TSAB just giving humanitarian aid, but I don't think they'd object too strongly to letting everyone on Earth Bet know that they exist and that Earth Bet could join if it unified (or not, that's cool too). I believe that the TSAB would be willing to have a decent level of diplomatic and trade relations with individual governments on non-unified worlds, provided said governments aren't doing particularly objectionable things.

Being an active part of a much larger system would be good for the stability of Earth Bet.
 
landcollector said:
So, unreasonable demands it is, then. Pity.
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...Am I missing something? o_O
You asked "What do you want from the TSAB?"
I answered "Only things they already promised to us."
How it is unreasonable?

beege said:
If I understand Shaseyu's complaint correctly, he's pissed at the TSAB for not providing said utopia.
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Nope.
I have my issues with the TSAB (both canon's and this quest's), but it's not one of them. Utopias should be built, not 'provided' by other people. If the TSAB was willing to help that would be good, but its non-interference is good enough for me.
 
landcollector said:
So, unreasonable demands it is, then. Pity.
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Dont know if youre being facetious, but theyre hardly unreasonable. All thats needed is for Taylor to continue the last few chapters trend of building the troops and thing'sll proceed nicely from there. The biggest chance for hiccup is our current business with the fallen and low population of prestanding troops.
 
Archeo Lumiere said:
He's pissed at the TSAB for not even trying to help. Right now the only thing they're doing is helping to fight the Endbringers. Which is great, yeah, but we know that they want us alone to join them, and we want them to bring our home along for the journey. Reforming it is a monumental task, however, and we need help. So either they help us reform our civilization over countless decades, or they don't, but they're not taking us from our home before it happens.
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That requires aid that the TSAB legally, philosophically, and ethically cannot provide. In a multigovernmental world like Earth Bet, any direct assistance could and, let's be honest, almost certainly would be used by the countries receiving that aid against those that aren't. That would lead to a world war that the TSAB would be responsible for causing, and they won't and shouldn't be party to that. Giving aid to all countries equally is impossible because even the TSAB doesn't have that level of resource surplus.
13th Fleet said:
I'd be fine with the TSAB just giving humanitarian aid, but I don't think they'd object too strongly to letting everyone on Earth Bet know that they exist and that Earth Bet could join if it unified (or not, that's cool too). I believe that the TSAB would be willing to have a decent level of diplomatic and trade relations with individual governments on non-unified worlds, provided said governments aren't doing particularly objectionable things.

Being an active part of a much larger system would be good for the stability of Earth Bet.
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As mentioned, this won't happen. The TSAB does not negotiate or trade with partial-world governments, full stop. They also will not permit private trade for the same reason.
 
Silently Watches said:
That requires aid that the TSAB legally, philosophically, and ethically cannot provide. In a multigovernmental world like Earth Bet, any direct assistance could and, let's be honest, almost certainly would be used by the countries receiving that aid against those that aren't. That would lead to a world war that the TSAB would be responsible for causing, and they won't and shouldn't be party to that. Giving aid to all countries equally is impossible because even the TSAB doesn't have that level of resource surplus.

As mentioned, this won't happen. The TSAB does not negotiate or trade with partial-world governments, full stop. They also will not permit private trade for the same reason.
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Reading this just makes you think that worlds that develop nukes will never join the TSAB. Countries can't use war to forcibly unite under one government with the threat of MAD.
 
Silently Watches said:
That requires aid that the TSAB legally, philosophically, and ethically cannot provide. In a multigovernmental world like Earth Bet, any direct assistance could and, let's be honest, almost certainly would be used by the countries receiving that aid against those that aren't. That would lead to a world war that the TSAB would be responsible for causing, and they won't and shouldn't be party to that. Giving aid to all countries equally is impossible because even the TSAB doesn't have that level of resource surplus.
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So they can't help us reform our society, we're fine with that, they just can't poach us from our planet before we finish the job.
 
landcollector said:
Then please point out where they ever promised they'd uplift the entirety of Earth-Bet's fractured polities. Because I don't recall them ever saying such.
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:jackiechan:
Lemme repeat myself:
They don't want to uplift Earth-Bet. That's fine, as long as they help with Endbringers and not interfere in our attempts to do it ourselves. And they already promised us exactly that.

landcollector said:
"I'd rather die of old age before leaving for better opportunities".
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Firstly, I fully agree with this message.
Secondly... Are we sure Taylor can die of old age? :drevil:
Or, more precisely, that IAE will not revive her, just like he do if Taylor will be killed?
 
Shaseyu said:
as long as they help with Endbringers and not interfere in our attempts to do it ourselves. And they already promised us exactly that.
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And has been said already, Empire building is faaaar beyond the bounds of the quest and likely its post epilogue story as well. So, I believe you are setting yourself up for great disappointment.

Shaseyu said:
Firstly, I fully agree with this message.
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That is quite sad to hear.
 
Personally, I would deal with the Endbringers and leave for the TSAB.

For one thing, I don't have a plot powered change-a-tron on my side.

For another, I might be somewhat smart (no guarantees), but I'm bad at political thinking, I have some kinda executive disorder, pretty much no ambition beyond free time and decent life to spend creating and, most importantly, no idea how to even start changing the world for the better. Hell, what can you even do with this? Trying to unify an entire world by having magic guns on your side is a bad, bad, bad idea.

And becoming someone's subordinate is about the worst thing you can do in hopes of unifying and changing the world, because nations are ultimately selfish.

So yeah. I'm not Taylor, but still. Even despite my personal issues, I think that the task of uplifting an Earth is at the very least improbable, if not outright impossible.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
Personally, I would deal with the Endbringers and leave for the TSAB.

For one thing, I don't have a plot powered change-a-tron on my side.

For another, I might be somewhat smart (no guarantees), but I'm bad at political thinking, I have some kinda executive disorder, pretty much no ambition beyond free time and decent life to spend creating and, most importantly, no idea how to even start changing the world for the better. Hell, what can you even do with this? Trying to unify an entire world by having magic guns on your side is a bad, bad, bad idea.

And becoming someone's subordinate is about the worst thing you can do in hopes of unifying and changing the world, because nations are ultimately selfish.

So yeah. I'm not Taylor, but still. Even despite my personal issues, I think that the task of uplifting an Earth is at the very least improbable, if not outright impossible.
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So, there is this thing called employment, which is a process which allows individuals and businesses to acquire the human capital and skills required to carry out necessary functions......

In all seriousness, "We don't know how to do X" is really low on the totem pole of reasons not to plan to do something, because most likely, in the age of internet and superheroes, we can find someone who does know.

Yeah, this plan is beyond the scope of the quest, but it still serves as a character goal to work towards, as something to inform our actions.
 
serra2 said:
So, there is this thing called employment, which is a process which allows individuals and businesses to acquire the human capital and skills required to carry out necessary functions......

In all seriousness, "We don't know how to do X" is really low on the totem pole of reasons not to plan to do something, because most likely, in the age of internet and superheroes, we can find someone who does know.

Yeah, this plan is beyond the scope of the quest, but it still serves as a character goal to work towards, as something to inform our actions.
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The only person that comes to my mind is Accord, because, well... I just don't see how you can unify a world that remained split apart into squabbling nations while there are friggin' *endbringers* roaming about and destroying society.

Hell, even then. You find someone who does know? Give them resources and magic, make a bunch of mages and leave because there's nothing you personally can do anyway. A bigger gun won't help in the process of unifying the world, and that's pretty much all Taylor is.

The most Taylor can do, at least in my opinion, is make a crapton of tinker-mages. They're the only ones who can ultimately make a dent in the world as a whole rather than just their neighborhood.
 
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DestinyPlayer said:
Hell, even then. You find someone who does know? Give them resources and magic, make a bunch of mages and leave because there's nothing you personally can do anyway. A bigger gun won't help in the process of unifying the world, and that's pretty much all Taylor is.
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People really seem to discount the utility of soft power, both in terms of diplomacy and making friends, and in establishing ourselves as a symbol pointing towards a brighter future. The biggest gun in the universe is far less important than the person who wields it.

EDIT: Anyway, enough about this future stuff. So the Privateers are done, the TSAB is gearing up to help out with all of the wrong conclusions, and the Open-Source Fairytale rejects are getting more aggressive. How long to the next Endbringer fight, and what should we focus on trying to do until then?
 
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serra2 said:
People really seem to discount the utility of soft power, both in terms of diplomacy and making friends, and in establishing ourselves as a symbol pointing towards a brighter future. The biggest gun in the universe is far less important than the person who wields it.
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Knowing Taylor, I disbelieve that she has the capacity to become said symbol. She's ultimately not a social person. Hell, with our hands, she basically spent this entire quest flubbing most social interactions.
 
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