Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

Putting that at the end of the original post, probably would have avoided a lot of grief. A "You IAE will make you a new body in 1 week" would have soothed lots of worries.
SW never said we'd have a new body made for us. And I know the discussion's been a bit fast-paced, but that wouldn't have solved the issues with the combat scenario and the TSAB motivations.
 
Wait, so Samantha being called in affected the fact that they went for Kill, even though she only went berserk (which is the reason calling her was a bad idea) after they were already using lethal force?
EDIT:
OK, I misread that. However, that frankly shouldn't have mattered. A physical appearance of the contact should have been given to the team, and any extra details searched out by debriefings.
Actually, until we made that call they didn't know what we looked like, and at that point the Enforcer squad was already on their way and had lost contact with Command.
 
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They were looking for their contact. They just had to figure out which of the fifteen worlds she was on first, which is the reason they were searching for mana usage. Only one mage means only one person using mana, so follow the one to find the other. It's taken them three weeks to completely search and rule out worlds #1-11, and they finally hit pay dirt on #12 only to run into what they thought was a brainwashed soldier of the Lost Logia they were searching for, at which point their reaction was "Well, shit, things just got ten times harder".
THIS, I think, is something that doesn't make sense.
TSAB has known there was some kind of monster driving entire cities insane with its attacks, on Earth Bet. In fact, it was what prompted Teana to hasten her convalescence. They shouldn't have been looking so hard in normal places, they should have followed the screams of "cities dying by droves in monster attacks".
Again, I have to quote Interlude 4.x:
No matter how tempting it was to play dumb about what she was talking about, he knew she would confirm whatever rumor she had heard eventually. "We received a message via the radio that was part of the Agharti a few weeks ago. A local mage on a magic-naive world managed to power it up with what sounds like an ad hoc setup. We've already started organizing a mission to pick her, and the Lost Logia, up."

"A… a few weeks?!" she spluttered. "Admiral, with all due respect, you know what happened when that thing activated last time, and that was when it only had a few days and two ships to build up its forces. Now you're saying it's been on an inhabited world for a few weeks and we haven't grabbed it yet?!"

"The initial communication did not indicate that anything untoward had happened, which should have meant that the Lost Logia was still inactive. There was no reason not to be cautious with regard to assembling a team to retrieve it," he explained as patiently as he could. Lanster's indignation was understandable, admirable even. Had he been in her shoes when he was still an active field agent, he would have been just as upset. But aggravation did not help anybody right now. "Yesterday's follow-up message regarding a telepathic monster driving people insane, on the other hand, rapidly accelerated our plans."

The reason the idea of wasting time on worlds 1-11 is wrong, I believe, is because they already know that "a telepathic monster driving people insane" was a thing on Earth Bet. They needn't have looked for the mages. They should have followed the screams instead. Here, the copy of the discussion.
Just like before, dark triangles and wires pop out of nowhere and tap into pieces of the radio. The holographic screens appear afterwards. A quick check to make sure Perfect Storm is showing them to Dragon, and you give her a nod. "This is Taylor, from Earth Bet. Is anyone there?"

"TSAB Enforcer Command, Lieutenant Azera speaking. Where did you say you're from again?"

Great, somebody who doesn't know what's going on. That's just what you need right now. "Earth Bet. I'm the only mage on my world. I talked to this Tiburon guy a few weeks ago. I'm kind of in a time crunch here, but we need to know how magic blocks out telepathy."

You're worried Azera is going to ask some stupid questions and waste more of your limited time, but she seems to roll with the punches. "What kind of telepathy do you mean? Forcible interrogations, hallucinations, inviolable directives?"

"Maybe the last one." Is the Simurgh's Scream a directive? It certainly makes people act in a way totally opposite to how they normally world, so you guess? "There's a monster on our world who drives whole cities insane whenever she attacks, and I'm one of the only people who can resist her. We think it's because of the Device I picked up, but we don't know for sure, and I don't know how to build them or how they work. I have one of our best engineers on the—"

The screens flicker mid-sentence and die. Staring at Perfect Storm, you bite out, "That was not thirty seconds."
 
See, that just makes the entire thing hold up even less well.

They were searching for their contact: - A Mage

They encounter: - A Mage

Their conclusion, based on solely that: - Must be an IAE slave, despite there being no slave army causing mass hysteria everywhere, not demonstrating any resemblance to a slave (Again, the combat tactics only happened after they attacked), and HAVING THE EXACT PHYSICAL APPEARANCE OF THEIR FUCKING CONTACT
Their contact was a mage, whose name was Taylor but whose appearance they didn't know because they ran into and through the Entities' barrier the same time as Taylor finally got the radio's video chat to work.

They encountered a mage who had a Barrier Jacket exactly like what was worn by the Calamity Witches that Teana has already fought.

Their conclusion based on that: If they run into a mage who looks like an IAE slave on a world where IAE landed, it's most likely an IAE slave.
Er, I think I should point out that SW was saying what would make us survive not what would make us win. The choices that would have made us survive would have made us loose any confrontation.
-Don't get Sam (We were outnumbered and against melee spec fighters; very very bad)
-Don't use Solar Wrath (The only thing we have as and AOE attack that does damage)
-Use melee spells (melee vs belkans = fail)

I guess we might have been able to Solar Wrath the Barrier and run (but we didn't get to vote on that it happened in the last update).

I guess the only way to survive was to be taken down non-lethally by the TSAB.

Never mind, I will try to take Faraway's advice.
I'll go ahead and address this, because you are correct. You were not going to win this fight. Taylor, with four months of experience fighting parahumans, versus five mages who are trained to fight other mages with years of experience doing so and having been briefed on all her abilities by someone who has already fought and countered them.

If someone has a way that Taylor could have actually won that fight, I'd like to hear it. Seriously, no sarcasm, because I can't see how it would happen given the circumstances going in.
We are not really that Mad about the deaths, at least I'm not. I'm asking why did you think putting us in an impossible fight in the middle of a story line that had nothing to do with this encounter, would be a good idea?
From a purely OOC perspective, it opens the door to having working with the TSAB or hunting down the "Belkans" be one of the sidequest options for Arc 9.
IC, it actually doesn't have "nothing" to do with the current arc's theme of finding strange allies. A loose connection, I'll grant you that, but not exactly none. At least, not in my mind.
 
So having taken a few hours, reread the last chapter and the ending of the previous one, then gone over the responses I'm gonna chip in my thoughts.

The fact that we had no indication that a well thought out plan based on previous experiences would completely backfire (due to info we didn't have access to) seems to be the major issue here.

In story terms I can buy this being a horrible case of friendly fire, where a bunch of assumptions made by both sides resulted in an absolute mess, though that's still a bit stretched with the fact that we weren't certain about who we were fighting and why beforehand (I'd personally assumed that we'd stretched stuff out too long, and the Adepts were getting pushy). While your justifications make sense to a certain extent the fact that we had absolutely no idea to expect them is absolutely horrible from a questing perspective.

Once we got some info at the start of the chapter I was left sitting there going 'Wait? Why are we suddenly fighting a team of what looks like highly coordinated Belkan mages? I thought this was gang members/Adepts! What did they say? Where did this fight come from? Wait a second... What do you mean Dead? What on Earth just happened!?' when I first read through (I think I even made a snap post that was pretty much 'Wat? Did we have a chance?'). This sort of response where you feel like the quest just blindsided you with something then gave you no way to recover is definitely not what you were aiming for (I hope), and is really off-putting (if I didn't like this quest so much I suspect I'd have dropped it like I have others where similar things happened).

Honestly the fact that you didn't give us any indication that we had an issue, or for that matter a chance to make any sort of recovery, save or escape after the last vote is the biggest issue here. Splitting the fight would have let us figure out that something didn't line up with our previous assumptions, and either change tactics or do something to fix things. Sure that'd slow the pace of the fight down a bit, but even giving it a snap vote (20 minute moratorium, 2hour window?) To avoid people making overly elaborate plans and force quick decisions would have been much better. It'd have taken some of the feeling of inevitably out of the fight even if we still lost, which would have greatly cut down on the feeling of a railroad.

Having the story abruptly take this turn feels a lot like we were being railroaded into a scenario just so you get to show off the cool new toy (the reincarnation mechanics) you've been wanting to play with. The fact that you were so quick to put that out there as a defence for your reasoning didn't help, and I recall at the time I read that feeling a bit annoyed with your comment. Sorta 'Wait? That's a thing, and you're saying that everything is fine cause we'll reincarnate in some manner!? What about Samantha! Or our connections!'. That it really made it seem like the story got railroaded to make everything go downhill (Dragon and the TSAB's meeting would be excessively tense and might well collapse once the info was brought up, Cauldron would likely take it badly and probably go obstructive, the Adepts and Privateers would probably be aggravated and lashing out while they tried to figure out who to blame for her disappearance, and everything would pretty much get worse...) was just the icing on top.

Really, all I can say is your writing is great, you've put the story together well, but this series of decisions could at best be seen as badly thought out and at worst malicious QM behaviour (which having read your responses is not what you were aiming for in the slightest). The changes you've made do take some of the sting out of it, but that initial reading put me as close as I've come to abandoning the thread.
 
Yeah, no, I'm out. The incredibly condescending AAR until we called you out on them, all the crap that apparently existed because Being Taylor Is Suffering and now this Railroading bullshit.

The fact of the matter is that at this point, I can't even trust you to be an impartial GM anymore. You obviously have a specific narrative in mind and the willingness to keep us tied down to your rails, which make me frankly wonder why this is even a quest rather then a just a story.
 
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Yeah, no, I'm out. The incredibly condescending AAR until we called you out on them, all the crap that apparently existed because Being Taylor Is Suffering and now this Railroading bullshit.

The fact of the matter is that at this point, I can't even trust you to be an impartial GM anymore. You obviously have a specific narrative in mind and the willingness to keep us tied down to your rails, which make me frankly wonder why this is even a quest rather then a just a story.

Okay no, that's not fair. Up until this point the quest has been proceeding well enough and this is the first instance of anything resembling railroading we've run across.

Leave if you want, but don't be a dick about it.
 
I'll go ahead and address this, because you are correct. You were not going to win this fight. Taylor, with four months of experience fighting parahumans, versus five mages who are trained to fight other mages with years of experience doing so and having been briefed on all her abilities by someone who has already fought and countered them.

If someone has a way that Taylor could have actually won that fight, I'd like to hear it. Seriously, no sarcasm, because I can't see how it would happen given the circumstances going in.

Then why not give us a fight? Even an impossible fight would be better than what ever this is... At least we can try to muchkin through it while losing...
 
The fact that we had no indication that a well thought out plan based on previous experiences would completely backfire (due to info we didn't have access to) seems to be the major issue here.
I would note that the LAST time we ran into unknown combatants and lost we got screwed because:
-We didn't go lethal
-We didn't use the bigger spells immediately when we had time
-We didn't call in Samantha

The last time we ran into unknown combatants and won:
-We immediately used the bigger spell
-We brought Samantha in

So this is a predictable outcome, considering most unknown encounter scenarios previously would have been improved by the use of Solar Wrath, Lethal spells and/or Samantha, it is unsurprising that we learned the lesson and improved our way to kamikaze.

Also noting that it doesn't match Enforcer MO for the Nanoha fans, but that's a minor variation that could be from squad level, since all known enforcer scenarios in canon Nanoha has them observe for as long as is feasible until harm would result from continuation. And the language doesn't seem to fit either, since they had no trouble communicating with a Japanese girl in canon despite it being first contact.
 
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If someone has a way that Taylor could have actually won that fight, I'd like to hear it. Seriously, no sarcasm, because I can't see how it would happen given the circumstances going in.

That is definitely what was getting us up in arms. We were ambushed with a no-win scenario, that we really couldn't do something about. We didn't like that we couldn't choose, or that our choices didn't matter. At the end of the 8.9 update you said Taylor would deviate because she wasn't in a good head space, so we thought we were pretty much locked in as a character to fighting (given there was no indication that it was anything that would be a threat to us when we got the choice that would actually make us back off IC).
 
Yeah, no, I'm out. The incredibly condescending AAR until we called you out on them, all the crap that apparently existed because Being Taylor Is Suffering and now this Railroading bullshit.

The fact of the matter is that at this point, I can't even trust you to be an impartial GM anymore. You obviously have a specific narrative in mind and the willingness to keep us tied down to your rails, which make me frankly wonder why this is even a quest rather then a just a story.
That's super unfair - this is very clearly a mistake based on "what works in a story" versus "what works in a quest" and expecting someone to get it right first try is just plain foolish. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the railroading here was deliberate and not simply a function of not taking into account how the game mechanics of a quest affect player reaction and attachment to a specific character.
 
I don't see any real problem with this. This wasn't a game over, this was a speed bump. Quests need speed bumps to make choices feel as if they have value. As long as the game continues, and the charecter isn't crippled for life, we can still have fun. Point is Taylor could have never beaten those mages, they were specifically trained and prepared for her skillset. Taylor lost not because of bad planning but because the other side knew her. That happens in life, some battles are not winnable. Doesn't mean we won't take a pound of flesh in the war (evil scheming in process)
 
I don't mind the fight being a 'get dragged in unconscious' vs. A 'get killed' scenario. What I mind is that it feels like we were basically set up to take the latter option.

Unwinnable fight? Okay.

Getting the worst possible option because we made choices that would be the best possible choices in almost any other similar scenario? (That is to say an ambush from enemies who fired first that were anything other than a trained team of mages who had simply made a mistake of our identity.) Not so much of the Okay.
 
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I'll go ahead and address this, because you are correct. You were not going to win this fight. Taylor, with four months of experience fighting parahumans, versus five mages who are trained to fight other mages with years of experience doing so and having been briefed on all her abilities by someone who has already fought and countered them.

If someone has a way that Taylor could have actually won that fight, I'd like to hear it. Seriously, no sarcasm, because I can't see how it would happen given the circumstances going in.
Oh good lord. Have you never been in a tabletop role-playing session before? Played a video game? At what point did we ever give the impression we liked being put in an impossible scenario? You've just justified every accusation of railroading made thus far. Look. I know Wildbow's thing is throwing a character into a situation where they have no advantages + many disadvantages and see if they figure out a way.
But that does not work when you've got folks sitting across the table from you. Agency is sacrosanct, inviolable. Even as an author, that should make sense. You take away player agency, you take away their investment. You are telling them that their time and effort is worthless to you.

Frankly, I'm not even upset anymore. I feel sorry for you. You've been having this leading up for several months, at best since the end of October, and this massive combination of issues is suddenly revealed. Going forward is going to only hurt more feelings, re-writing things is going to be
That's super unfair - this is very clearly a mistake based on "what works in a story" versus "what works in a quest" and expecting someone to get it right first try is just plain foolish. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the railroading here was deliberate and not simply a function of not taking into account how the game mechanics of a quest affect player reaction and attachment to a specific character.
1. This isn't really 'first'. This is a quest that's been running since April of last year, to say nothing of SW's own quest participation. It's been long enough that to try and pass SW off as a fumbling newbie is frankly insulting her ability as a writer.
2. Silently Watches said they choose to make the fight unwinnable. Ergo, deliberate.
3. That player agency is a factor does not mean the above is suddenly a non-factor. They are merely both present.
 
I don't see any real problem with this. This wasn't a game over, this was a speed bump. Quests need speed bumps to make choices feel as if they have value. As long as the game continues, and the charecter isn't crippled for life, we can still have fun. Point is Taylor could have never beaten those mages, they were specifically trained and prepared for her skillset. Taylor lost not because of bad planning but because the other side knew her. That happens in life, some battles are not winnable. Doesn't mean we won't take a pound of flesh in the war (evil scheming in process)
I think the issue is that this wasn't so much a speed bump as us being driven off a cliff right as things were at what we thought was a low point in the story.

As I said before it seemed like an 'Everything gets Worse' scenario, since without Taylor being there quite a few long term things we've been working on will either collapse or backlash against people, greatly increasing the difficulty in achieving anything substantial.
 
Okay now I feel I need to reiterate the request to chill posted earlier.

And yes, I realize I haven't exactly been abiding by that request myself, but this discussion feels like it's starring to go in circles.

We've established what our current problems are, now let the nice QM respond before we keep going?
 
"... And order to stand down was ignored, which is not a surprise as none of the others did, either, though at least she did not immediately tell us how we would be converted into forces for Galea."
...this implies that the IAE drones spewed propaganda, at least occasionally.

So...all Taylor had to do...all you had to make Taylor do, invoking authorial fiat to avert this disaster...

...was have her trash talk tell them to back off in English.

If any of them understood English, and thus understood that there was nothing about converting them, Galea, or any standard propaganda in there, they'd know she wasn't a drone.

If none of them translated it, they'd still hear a language that wasn't Galean, Ancient Belkan, or Modern TSAB, and realize there was a communication issue with their demands for surrender, and start to reconsider the situation.

I've got to agree with the naysayers, at least a little. This really feels like you tried to force a bad end when we acted in character.
 
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We've established what our third batch problems are
FTFY.
If any of them understood English, and thus understood that there was nothing about converting them, Galea, or any standard propaganda in there, they'd know she wasn't a drone.
If none of them translated it, they'd still hear a language that wasn't Galean, Ancient Belkan, or Modern TSAB, and realize there was a communication issue with their demands for surrender, and start to reconsider the situation.
Given Taylor's comments to Samantha and vice-versa were all verbal, not telepathic, I'd think these would have been triggered anyway.
 
1. This isn't really 'first'. This is a quest that's been running since April of last year, to say nothing of SW's own quest participation. It's been long enough that to try and pass SW off as a fumbling newbie is frankly insulting her ability as a writer.
2. Silently Watches said they choose to make the fight unwinnable. Ergo, deliberate.
3. That player agency is a factor does not mean the above is suddenly a non-factor. They are merely both present.
1. And this is, to my knowledge, the first time this particular issue has come up.
2. People aren't mad about the fight being unwinnable - or at least most people aren't and shouldn't be. They're annoyed that losing the fight meant a Bad End due to the exact vote, without any warning. It wasn't that we were thoroughly outclassed, it was that we were significantly "punished" for it due to the fact that this is a game not just a story.
3. I consider them non-factors because I disagree with them both, and I'm not sure what this this point added.

@Faraway-R My bad, you were apparently right about the direction the thread was heading in earlier.

EDIT: A word.
 
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Actually alot of rpg video games have no win battles no matter how strong you as soon as you doing well they do a cut scene showing you getting your ass handed to you inorder to progress the story.

Also since there is a rebirth system its no worse than tabletop rpg games like eclipse phase or paranoia where you will mostly die a few times
 
Actually alot of rpg video games have no win battles no matter how strong you as soon as you doing well they do a cut scene showing you getting your ass handed to you inorder to progress the story.

Also since there is a rebirth system its no worse than tabletop rpg games like eclipse phase or paranoia where you will mostly die a few times
Yeah, but you don't do both at once.
 
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