Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

Most of those are mad about the death though, or mad about something other than the unwinnable fight specifically. Like, to the point where I'm honestly baffled as to why you linked most of them.
Look man, I already spent more time than I should have putting that together for you. If you're not seeing what other people are saying, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I ain't going to mess with that anymore.
 
Most of those are mad about the death though, or mad about something other than the unwinnable fight specifically. Like, to the point where I'm honestly baffled as to why you linked most of them.

It seems to me the problem isn't that some fights are unwinnable.

It's that we didn't take reasonable actions to result in being locked into an unwinnable fight. To put it this way, we should not have been in this unwinnable fight, not that the fight itself should've been unwinnable.

Because we should lose against these guys, there's no reasonable or logical way for us to win solo (well Taylor+Sam) vs them... it's just that we shouldn't have been in a fight with them in the first place.

...at least, that's how I read it.
 
It's also that this was an unwinnable fight set in motion by a random encounter with an unknown group of enemies.

We literally had no way to avoid this, as the fight started off from Taylor taking a flight to clear her head, and because it was a random encounter with nothing to warn us of what it actually was, any votes were gonna be made blind.

It was sorta like accidentally triggering an endgame boss by walking through an area, and having it look exactly like a normal encounter until it turns out to be the Rabbit of Caerbannog.
 
Also TSAB is apparently filled with rascist dicks.

"Oh, you're midchlorian/related to one in some way? Sure we'll go easy on you even if you're threatening the local dimensional cluster. Oh, you're not and only threatening a small planet currently? Well fuck you, you die."

It seems to me the problem isn't that some fights are unwinnable.

It's that we didn't take reasonable actions to result in being locked into an unwinnable fight. To put it this way, we should not have been in this unwinnable fight, not that the fight itself should've been unwinnable.

Because we should lose against these guys, there's no reasonable or logical way for us to win solo (well Taylor+Sam) vs them... it's just that we shouldn't have been in a fight with them in the first place.

...at least, that's how I read it.
SW also let people vote for a plan at the end of 8.9 with no indication it was unwinnable in any whatsoever. As I noted last page, I'm still split on that, but he really might as well have just rolled for the ending outcome.

Or talked to everyone before-hand. "Hey guys, small problem with the story side of things." I've seen that done before, it works.
 
Frankly i dont mind there being unwinnable fights. What i do mind is basically that with essentially no hints at all and no information at all that this fight is any different than all the other fights we've been in. No indication at all that going with standard tactics that we've learned to use in every fight would lock us into getting killed.

And well. If the Taylor Died end would have been kept I'm rather doubtful that Taylor would want to live. At all. Other than going off to some remote world and then killing herself so that she wont be ressurected using someone that she knows.

Because what the hell else would Taylor do? Sam would be dead, her dad is for all intents and purposes dead to her, she'd have bodysnatched and effectively killed someone else like Lacey.

She'd basically have no ties left. Nothing to hold her clinging to life.
 
Frankly i dont mind there being unwinnable fights. What i do mind is basically that with essentially no hints at all and no information at all that this fight is any different than all the other fights we've been in. No indication at all that going with standard tactics that we've learned to use in every fight would lock us into getting killed.

And well. If the Taylor Died end would have been kept I'm rather doubtful that Taylor would want to live. At all. Other than going off to some remote world and then killing herself so that she wont be ressurected using someone that she knows.

Because what the hell else would Taylor do? Sam would be dead, her dad is for all intents and purposes dead to her, she'd have bodysnatched and effectively killed someone else like Lacey.

She'd basically have no ties left. Nothing to hold her clinging to life.
Revenge, Spite, and Hate?

Just the last alone can be enough honestly.
 
Okay, just got up, let's check the new...

...Update.

Okay, that just happened. And I'm surprisingly okay with this, now that Tay-Tay's not dead.

The problem isn't with the unwinnable battle, but that losing that battle would lead to sudden death through variables we would have no way of knowing. Sure, if we put our minds to it we could've figured out they were mages before the vote closed, but then again how were we supposed to know what to avoid not to look like an IAE Puppet?

What I would have done is changing 8.9 to end with Recursion Field dropping on us while a Belkan mage confronted us, followed by an untranslated demand to surrender while Perfect Storm would've started to urge us to forgo diplomacy and attack.

Then we would've gotten the option to try and talk to them anyways, successful communication or not, or follow our trusty Device's advice and go forward into an unwinnable battle.

As it stands I'm A-Okay with this @Silently Watches, even though the TSAB's reasoning and tactics could use a little work.
 
Losing the fight doesn't overly bother me, I can understand that. What bothers me is the buildup and the result. We have communicated with them, they know what we look like, this shouldn't even have been an issue. It just feels so contrived.

Second, before your original decision to kill Taylor, you pretty much killed everyone she cared about, including Sam, her surrogate mother figure and that's before we learn how this resurrection works. This is going to lead to a very emo, probably suicidal Taylor, which is just... eh.

As it is, if we survive were going to be a prisoner, they will probably take Perfect Storm away and considering how they act, they likely wont give it back.

It just feels like the entire thing was essentially a "meh" Fuck it moment where you decided to just drop rocks and end the quest.

The amount of salt this is gonna generate (and is generating) is going fill mountains. It reminds me of some of the saltiest and bitter moments of "We Stand in Awe", and the nation quest "SG40k" I participated in (still bit angry over that one and its been years)
 
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Given Taylor's comments to Samantha and vice-versa were all verbal, not telepathic, I'd think these would have been triggered anyway.
I gave that a pass on the basis that they had some space between them...we were using long-range tactics...and that Taylor and Sam weren't exactly shouting at each other.

Figures they wouldn't pick up a bit of quiet chatter at a great distance.
 
Losing the fight doesn't overly bother me, I can understand that. What bothers me is the buildup and the result. We have communicated with them, they know what we look like, this shouldn't even have been an issue. It just feels so contrived.
I've already gone into this, but the crew of the Sojourner, the ship that actually came to the Worm-Earths looking for Taylor and IAE? You've never spoken to any of them, and they have no clue what you looks like. The video conference in Arc 6 took place the day after the ship had already crossed the Entities' barrier. All the crew knows is what template mages look like, and you look like a Calamity Witch because that's exactly what you are.
Second, before your original decision to kill Taylor, you pretty much killed everyone she cared about, including Sam, her surrogate mother figure and that's before we learn how this resurrection works. This is going to lead to a very emo, probably suicidal Taylor, which is just... eh.
Not entirely. Danny is away, yes. Sam would have been dead, yes. But there is still Lacey, Tim, Miss Militia, Vista, Dragon, and Kayleigh, all of whom are named characters she's spent more than a little screen time with. Are they the same importance as Danny and Sam? No, but she would not be totally alone the way you're implying.
 
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And all of whom are not family.

Everyone you just listed might barely qualify as a friend, most of them are working partners or friends of the family. Basically rope bridges instead of actual pillars of support.
Not disagreeing with that in the slightest. Just wanted to point out that post-rebirth Taylor would not be totally alone like some have projected.

Also have to mention that if Samantha counts as family, Taylor is fully capable of creating new family members. Maybe not another stepmother-figure, but older siblings easily.

Of course, since she's not dying now, kind of a moot point in the immediate future.
 
Not disagreeing with that in the slightest. Just wanted to point out that post-rebirth Taylor would not be totally alone like some have projected.

Also have to mention that if Samantha counts as family, Taylor is fully capable of creating new family members. Maybe not another stepmother-figure, but older siblings easily.

Of course, since she's not dying now, kind of a moot point in the immediate future.
Unless they killed Samantha, which... I don't see why they wouldn't? Berserk Familiar is Berserk. And they certainly held no qualms about killing us.
 
With all the salt , i want to start with a huuug and saying I'd be much more upset if you hadn't been a good, fair, and not-grimdark author enough so far that I'm willing to wait and trust more than I would elsewhere. (Someone just mentioned the infinite-salt-mine I quit following. This looks quite a bit more like the Momo fight with its misunderstandings, but very happily NOT the parley-vote or the accept-memories vote that were the QM intentionally punishing players for their choice) .

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Reading this back at noon (man its painful reading updates on a lunch break where I can't reply :cry::cry: ) I wanted to make a lot of detailed commentary and line-quoting. As it is I think I'd mostly be repeating points a little too much.

Basically, I tend to agree with people, its not so much an issue that its an unwinnable fight or even that elements were reasonable or not, the issue is whether we should have known how to vote better.

Still unsure why "use a hybrid of Witch and Knight template" would give points towards them reassessing us as not matching slaves, but "possess a caring guardian beast" gave no points there. (Especially since Berserk only happened later... I think only after the Buster from the Belkan , at worst.) Or why we were entirely silent during the fight, even as they called out to us in an unfamiliar language, when speaking in english might've given us points.

You even said at one point "the blasts that attacked you pre-vote look just like any other blaster, including this named one" . What clue would we have had to know to try and talk them down and avoid looking like a Puppet to kill? Was there something we missed, or was it only ever going to be functionally random (do we happen to choose the plan that survives rather than death plans, with no hints or knowledge to shape it). This wasn't even strictly an ambush (where someone said we should've assumed they'd know our abilities) , it looked like we spotted them /first/ and they turned the tables on us on the fly. At least it looked that way to me.

I do think some of your replies thus far, Silently, are focused more on "This made perfect sense in-character because of X and Y", and less response to the questions of "could the players have done better" or the perhaps unasked "why was it written with X and Y". Okay, so they crossed the barrier a DAY (not a week or two, which is how votes go by) after we made video contact that potentially could have avoided this? And they sent a Belkan because they didn't expect peace was an option (whats the population ratio there? Could a random team have coincidentally lacked any and been believable?) so PS wasn't as helpful? And we didn't happen to have night-vision on for our night-flying, while translation is neither automatic nor a telepathy-leakage from the memories and personality update? All of these are perfectly reasonable circumstances in Story that could cause this unfortunate misunderstanding, but with a Game in mind why shape the circcumstances in so many ways so the only option was "happen to pick correctly" and not any of these places that would've circumvented the worst of it? (Even down to the initial choice of what IAE is like, with it being a mindless-slave kill-on-sight Lost Logia and not one of the dangerous-but-sapient types like the Numbers or the Book of Darkness and its Knights).

On a different topic, people need to STOP AND WAIT on the issue of how things would go if Taylor died. We don't know the exact specifics of what her continuing on looks like, and that shapes things far too much to comment. (Complete memory upload to a meat-puppet crafted from animal-sourced Carbon , ala Eclipse Phase, is very different from going Butcher and stealing a living human body that doesn't match ours, just for example).

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TLDR, what clues did we miss (if any) that would have had us vote for a plan that got enough points to survive? Do you see anything that could've /caused/ that type of vote and didn't, rather than the result being possible if that vote arose on its own by chance? And did all the circumstances (reasonable IC though they were) that caused this clusterwhat of friendly fire need to happen?
 
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@Silently Watches I think the issue here is how you as a QM have trained your players.

Firstly, I think you did too good a job of training players to escalate early and escalate hard: when a decision to not escalate results in losing, the next time your players are going to do the opposite. When doing that succeeds, particularly when doing so succeeds over successive encounters, you send them the message that escalating is the correct way to fight. And when, after having been trained to escalate because that's what causes them to win, you throw them a curveball where their successful strategy becomes the exact wrong thing to do...well, you get dissonance. Adding insult to injury (from the player perspective), instead of just having us lose the fight you added in character death. Thus creating even more whiplash.

Which brings me to my second point. A resurrection mechanic is indeed a very cool thing, and I agree that Taylor's reaction to having been accidentally killed by the TSAB due to a lethal case of mistaken identity would have been a very interesting story to tell. Unfortunately, you have not trained your players to expect character death as a thing to accept or embrace. Ideally you would have introduced the mechanic early, deliberately killing off the character at least once during the explicit tutorial stage so that players can grow accustomed to the idea that while dying isn't exactly ideal it isn't the end of the world either. You could have also structured the reward system (such as keeping xp if you die in a fight, meaning all consequences are narrative - since losing time impacts what elements of the story you can interact with - instead of mechanical) such that kamikaze-type plans could work as suboptimal but successful strategies during nasty Endbringer fights.
 
I'l like to pop in and say I'm loving the quest so far.

I can see the possible knowledge and beliefs of both sides that came together to cause this particular fight, I don't think it's a massive writing failure that some people seem to believe. It does feel a little tone-whiplash though, but not knowing the "death mechanic" I feel it may be assuming the "worst" case. Having to balance "high cost" death affecting the main character in such a way that makes it a bit much for a "single choice" (arguably written to encourage that choice too), against "low cost" where there stops being consequences for avoiding it in the future, feels difficult. Maybe that balance could be struck.

That aside, I'm looking forward to the consequences to the STAB team. A "police" force doesn't shoot first. A "police" force doesn't go lethal. A "police" force tries multiple times to talk it down and avoids escalation. I can see how various character backgrounds and knowledge may encourage that, but there's no way that the STAB organisation could possibly be OK with that. Going in with that mindset is a liability to them, I expect there to be *massive* consequences - this is the sort of thing that would immediately get you in front of a court marshal in "real world" military police forces, possible prosecution. But certainly retiring from active service.

I'm looking forward to a clusterfuck when the higher-ups go over the after-action reports/recording (I assume devices do this by default).
 
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Honestly, my issue with the original series of events wasn't that Taylor died and a rebirth mechanism would have happened. That's an interesting plotline all on its own.

My problem with it was that it felt less like a fight and more like a bushwhack. We got one stage of voting that apparently resulted in "You Died", without any opportunity to change tactics, alter our response for new info, or even retreat. It just felt more like "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" than "Your Bad Choices Led to Death". It probably didn't help that the whole Danny thing just happened, either.

With how Taylor's character has been thus far, I feel like the playerbase could actually accept a death, so long as it felt like a death they had a hand on the wheel of. Dying fighting an Endbringer, or another high-class threat, and then experiencing the resurrection might have gone over better. Give the death a bit more meaning, or even a sacrifice.
 
I don't think it's a massive writing failure that some people seem to believe.
No one's said that. In fact most of us agree that it's a very valid and good piece of the story. What it fails at is being part of the game. Because this is a quest and is thus equal parts story and game.
With how Taylor's character has been thus far, I feel like the playerbase could actually accept a death, so long as it felt like a death they had a hand on the wheel of. Dying fighting an Endbringer, or another high-class threat, and then experiencing the resurrection might have gone over better. Give the death a bit more meaning, or even a sacrifice.
But her death would have meaning. The sheer anti-pathy created between Earth Bet, namely Alexandria and Dragon, and the TSAB would have been insane.

The first thing the TSAB does when it shows up is kill an underage Heroine? They didn't just shoot their foot, they fucking blew their leg off.

Hell, they still fucking shoot their foot, just not as bad as it could have been.

I never said it was a good meaning.
 
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So. I have only skimmed the shitstorm. But best I can tell, the only way for Taylor to have survived was for the players to somehow know that this was the TSAB, that the TSAB assumed the only mage they've seen - despite their contact being a mage - was an IAE drone, and then to make a series of completely counterintuitive and survivability-decreasing decisions.

And the QM response was 'no, guys, you could totally have made it out of this.'

I will reserve judgement here, but this really looks like a case of a GM's plans relying on a) the players thinking exactly like him, and b) the players having information that was deliberately hidden from them.

Edit: This really a the kind of snap-twist that is fine in a STORY, but not so much in a game.

Edit2: Autocorrect, yay!
 
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I've already gone into this, but the crew of the Sojourner, the ship that actually came to the Worm-Earths looking for Taylor and IAE? You've never spoken to any of them, and they have no clue what you looks like. The video conference in Arc 6 took place the day after the ship had already crossed the Entities' barrier. All the crew knows is what template mages look like, and you look like a Calamity Witch because that's exactly what you are.
I'm sorry, but that is still contrived. We had every reason possible to think that the elite team of agents from a highly advanced civilization we've been in contact with would be have all the relevant information we had passed onto the larger organization. At the very least if there was communication problems with the retrieval team then we should have been informed of that problem.
 
I think we've probably reached the point where there's not much new being said? Constructive criticism is always a good thing, but I think we're pretty much all agreed is was a good story choice and a bad game choice. It's been retconned, so unless someone has some new insight maybe we could let it lie? Unless @Silently Watches has anything else to add?
 
I think we've probably reached the point where there's not much new being said? Constructive criticism is always a good thing, but I think we're pretty much all agreed is was a good story choice and a bad game choice. It's been retconned, so unless someone has some new insight maybe we could let it lie? Unless @Silently Watches has anything else to add?
Doubt it. Salt's gonna flow, if only because people want to get it out of themselves.

And, tbh, the real sticking point is ending up in the situation in the first place, not that we died from it. So it hasn't been retconned really. *Shrug*
 
Unfortunately, you have not trained your players to expect character death as a thing to accept or embrace. Ideally you would have introduced the mechanic early, deliberately killing off the character at least once during the explicit tutorial stage so that players can grow accustomed to the idea that while dying isn't exactly ideal it isn't the end of the world either.

This. I don't remember if Dark Sould explicitly kills you 100% of the time during the tutorial stage to present that mechanic, but most players will probably die at least once during the tutorial.

I remember Salt and Sanctuary and the unbeatable first boss, which segways into the start of the game proper. I think Demon Sould does this too (never played it).

But her death would have meaning. The sheer anti-pathy created between Earth Bet, namely Alexandria and Dragon, and the TSAB would have been insane.

The first thing the TSAB does when it shows up is kill an underage Heroine? They didn't just shoot their foot, they fucking blew their leg off.

Even with the retconed ending, they still almost kill Taylor. Wherever she wakes up, that's not gonna look good for them. With how they'be been portrayed in story, I don't have many hopes for Sam or Perfect Storm surviving if she wakes up with the TSAB (in custory or not) and that would certainly cast them in a very bad light.

If by miracle Taylor manages to escape, she'll probably have a pretty big grudge against whoever tried to kill her.

Whatever happens, they probably burned their bridges with Taylor pretty badly.
 
Even with the retconed ending, they still almost kill Taylor. Wherever she wakes up, that's not gonna look good for them. With how they'be been portrayed in story, I don't have many hopes for Sam or Perfect Storm surviving if she wakes up with the TSAB (in custory or not) and that would certainly cast them in a very bad light.

If by miracle Taylor manages to escape, she'll probably have a pretty big grudge against whoever tried to kill her.

Whatever happens, they probably burned their bridges with Taylor pretty badly.
*Not having PS and Sam being dead anyway* Yep, totally better off dying instead of surviving in that particular case. At least then we still have PS.
 
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