Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
Ah, it's a good thing I have a gif for this.
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It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure
- Thread starter Slyvena
- Start date
- Original Mature Fantasy Action
So, even when there is no goal, there is still a goal. Got it.
More seriously, let's say Lilly's trying to target three wolves trailing her. Sample Space reveals that, in the next 0.4 seconds, a wolf that she didn't see would jump her and take her out. To deal with the jumping wolf, she must turn away and abandon her three original targets.
Does the sample-Lilly consensus really allow the wolf to jump her, just for pursuit of the goal? Or, do the sample-Lillies overrule Lilly's original goal in favor of doing whatever they think best?
If they do the latter regardless, why is a goal important to begin with?
More seriously, let's say Lilly's trying to target three wolves trailing her. Sample Space reveals that, in the next 0.4 seconds, a wolf that she didn't see would jump her and take her out. To deal with the jumping wolf, she must turn away and abandon her three original targets.
Does the sample-Lilly consensus really allow the wolf to jump her, just for pursuit of the goal? Or, do the sample-Lillies overrule Lilly's original goal in favor of doing whatever they think best?
If they do the latter regardless, why is a goal important to begin with?
- Location
- Somewhere.
The power is also an agent, you --
I think I must disengage from this conversation, before it goes places I would regret.
...not the clowns...
...Actually, they'd probably start charging the Maw just like everything else has, so. Sure. Send in the clowns.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Since at this point it's mostly just one person insisting that it works one way while everyone else insists it doesn't, that's probably for the best, now that I think about it.
To clarify, my working hypothesis is that the range of thoughts passing through the rangers' minds, uh.
Discounting that one kid with the extreme shyness, the thoughts were probably ranging from "poor girl, huh, she wants us to be thinking about how out of her depth she is..." to "welp, looks like we found ourselves a camp follower!"
Due to cultural baggage, cultural misogyny, tendency to view women as possessions, et cetera, it seems likely that the collective understanding of the ranger squad would be informed by an assumption that a lone woman seeking out contact with a bunch of men is at least tacitly consenting to have sex with (one or more of) them as part of an informal "I need a protector" quid pro quo arrangement. "We just found ourselves a camp follower," in other words.
For some of the rangers, that's just the way the world is, it doesn't mean they personally are eager or even interested but it's part of their worldview that this is normal. Those rangers probably weren't standing up- but they weren't about to interrupt their squadmates over the issue either, because while to us the whole scene is repugnant, to them it's merely... I dunno, maybe distasteful but not worth confronting the other men over.
[Snip list of rationalizations men use for not interrupting rapes committed by other men], in other words.
Then you have the rangers who were interested and who were more directly interpreting the (in their minds) offer of "I'll be your camp follower if you'll keep me warm and fed" as something they intended to 'take.'
Those were the ones who stood up, with Andrew being, by implication, in the lead of that. Some of them were probably the ones who leered.
What the split of rapey versus rape-culturey rangers was, we'll =never know, and Slyvena had very little reason to give us an exact breakdown
Due to cultural baggage, cultural misogyny, tendency to view women as possessions, et cetera, it seems likely that the collective understanding of the ranger squad would be informed by an assumption that a lone woman seeking out contact with a bunch of men is at least tacitly consenting to have sex with (one or more of) them as part of an informal "I need a protector" quid pro quo arrangement. "We just found ourselves a camp follower," in other words.
For some of the rangers, that's just the way the world is, it doesn't mean they personally are eager or even interested but it's part of their worldview that this is normal. Those rangers probably weren't standing up- but they weren't about to interrupt their squadmates over the issue either, because while to us the whole scene is repugnant, to them it's merely... I dunno, maybe distasteful but not worth confronting the other men over.
[Snip list of rationalizations men use for not interrupting rapes committed by other men], in other words.
Then you have the rangers who were interested and who were more directly interpreting the (in their minds) offer of "I'll be your camp follower if you'll keep me warm and fed" as something they intended to 'take.'
Those were the ones who stood up, with Andrew being, by implication, in the lead of that. Some of them were probably the ones who leered.
What the split of rapey versus rape-culturey rangers was, we'll =never know, and Slyvena had very little reason to give us an exact breakdown
I think that's an artifact of the writing. Note that if Marigold was mind-controlling people into attacking her, then that would also be something she was familiar with, not unfamilair with.
That's fair.
I've already discussed, in detail, the reasons why I disagree with your interpretation of the situation. To the tune of hundreds if not thousands of words. I continued to do so later on in this very same post.
But if you really want, I will summarize again:
1) You are interpreting "one of the set {Lilly, Waters} will be dead in the distant future" to mean "one of the two will be dead in the near future." Slyvena has already directly said point blank: "Distant future means somewhere between a month to a few years. It could be within the month, it could be that he'd volunteer for a hunter-killer team tracking you down further along the timeline, it could be many things." But you are speaking, very consistently, as if there is nothing we can do except dig in for a stand in Harmuph with the loyalty of the militia as our main line of defense, despite any concerns about the survivability of this course of action or the risk of it leading to the entire area being labeled as rebels and crushed by royal forces.
2) You are attributing a certainty of success to unknown presumed factors (such as Waters' purely hypothetical anti-Lilly propaganda campaign) that may or may not even exist or occur. For instance, if Lilly and her immediate family flee Harmuph, Waters may not even care what the town of Harmuph thinks of Lilly after the fact. He obviously does not have a high regard for the average peasant who doesn't have some kind of supernatural power for him.
Those are the two core areas where I think you are making mistaken extrapolations and assumptions about Waters and the threat he presents.
Alternatively, it may simply be that Lilly is inevitably going to become prominent enough that even if she escapes his reach now, she'll come to his attention in the future, and resentment and a sense of narcissistic injury will impel him to come after us then.
Sorry for the bad joke; it does have practical implications, though, as shown in the example above. Should Lilly avoid making specific goals in order to allow for unforeseen optimizations, or does it not matter? It's not just an ivory tower question.
There are always unlikely outcomes, at minimum, that can completely invalidate an analysis; it is very well possible for Lilly to roll 30 natural 100's, gains 5 other ethos for free, effortlessly counter everything that Waters tries and set him back for years. Obviously, this would make all my estimates irrelevant... but it's not a likely outcome.
And, naturally, the analysis itself can be incorrect--which is why criticism to find its holes (rather than vague allusions to such) is important.
A fair point... but Harumph is Lilly's hometown. It's only sensible to take precautions (and ruin her reputation, as seems to be Waters' common resort), and to prevent her from finding a support base after he leaves.
Waters may be arrogant, but counting on one's enemies to be stupid is a losing strategy... especially when the smart action seems to coincide with what he wants to do. If he can't find Lilly or her family, her reputation is an obvious target.
I take my own issue here: I have pointed out why the examples Slyvena raised aren't actually demonstrative (namely, that you can pick examples from anywhere along the probability distribution, however unlikely), yet my points have been completely ignored. I have explained how the likely reasons for the prophecy give us reason to believe in an earlier rather than later confrontation (namely, that the most likely methods behind persistent prophecy-fulfillment are available immediately and there is no reason for Waters to refrain), yet my points have been completely ignored.
In fact, these are the same points I've just responded to--with my response ignored.
I welcome an effort to find holes in my reasoning--I wish to know of them as well! This amounts, however, to an allusion that said reasoning is problematic... without actually specifying what the problem is, much less showing that there is any problem at all.
I take this back, because it is at least briefly quote+responded.
So, if I'm reading correctly, you suggest that Waters' prophecy-worthy persistence is not due to any capability, but rather sheer determination against Lilly; he'll just keep coming after us, even if we put him in prison (which itself seems implausible).
This, however, doesn't work for the original reasons that brought up this rationale to begin with: what if Lilly crosses the Silent Sea? What if Lilly keeps a low profile and runs forever? Even in these cases, Waters inevitably catches up with us in the not-so-distant future. (Or, to be sure, we die first... which implies that we inevitably die unless we become trackable.)
Or... more simply, that we were always trackable to begin with; as I'd suggested all along.
I'll give that the scenario is at least possible, but the specific world requirements, and strict limits on Waters' capabilities make it far less likely.
This seems to be a repeated complaint, so... If I sound certain, please chalk it up to shorthand (rather than inflating the wordcount with "probably", "likely", "almost certainly" everywhere; though I think I do use plenty of those).
There are always unlikely outcomes, at minimum, that can completely invalidate an analysis; it is very well possible for Lilly to roll 30 natural 100's, gains 5 other ethos for free, effortlessly counter everything that Waters tries and set him back for years. Obviously, this would make all my estimates irrelevant... but it's not a likely outcome.
And, naturally, the analysis itself can be incorrect--which is why criticism to find its holes (rather than vague allusions to such) is important.
A fair point... but Harumph is Lilly's hometown. It's only sensible to take precautions (and ruin her reputation, as seems to be Waters' common resort), and to prevent her from finding a support base after he leaves.
Waters may be arrogant, but counting on one's enemies to be stupid is a losing strategy... especially when the smart action seems to coincide with what he wants to do. If he can't find Lilly or her family, her reputation is an obvious target.
In fact, these are the same points I've just responded to--with my response ignored.
I welcome an effort to find holes in my reasoning--I wish to know of them as well! This amounts, however, to an allusion that said reasoning is problematic... without actually specifying what the problem is, much less showing that there is any problem at all.
I take this back, because it is at least briefly quote+responded.
So, if I'm reading correctly, you suggest that Waters' prophecy-worthy persistence is not due to any capability, but rather sheer determination against Lilly; he'll just keep coming after us, even if we put him in prison (which itself seems implausible).
This, however, doesn't work for the original reasons that brought up this rationale to begin with: what if Lilly crosses the Silent Sea? What if Lilly keeps a low profile and runs forever? Even in these cases, Waters inevitably catches up with us in the not-so-distant future. (Or, to be sure, we die first... which implies that we inevitably die unless we become trackable.)
Or... more simply, that we were always trackable to begin with; as I'd suggested all along.
I'll give that the scenario is at least possible, but the specific world requirements, and strict limits on Waters' capabilities make it far less likely.
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I'm strongly convinced it's not just one thing here that leads to Lord Waters or Lily inevitably killing each other. I'm pretty sure its multiple things
1. If we escape alive, Lord Waters won't forget. He will use resources to look for us and hunt us down. His pride demands it.
2. If we escape and look dead (which i dont think is currently something we can do), we will come back and hunt him down. To help Kaymie.
3. We have an obvious confrontation happening soon, one in which we don't want to go with him and he really wants us. Easy place for either of us to kill each other.
4. If we win at the confrontation but leave him alive as a mercy, see option one.
5. If he wins and forces us to work for him, eventually we definitely are gonna kill him.
Like it just seems implausible from an equilibrium standpoint that both of us live long term. Something might be able to disrupt this, but not as is.
1. If we escape alive, Lord Waters won't forget. He will use resources to look for us and hunt us down. His pride demands it.
2. If we escape and look dead (which i dont think is currently something we can do), we will come back and hunt him down. To help Kaymie.
3. We have an obvious confrontation happening soon, one in which we don't want to go with him and he really wants us. Easy place for either of us to kill each other.
4. If we win at the confrontation but leave him alive as a mercy, see option one.
5. If he wins and forces us to work for him, eventually we definitely are gonna kill him.
Like it just seems implausible from an equilibrium standpoint that both of us live long term. Something might be able to disrupt this, but not as is.
My apologies to @Simon_Jester, as I missed the bottommost quote on first posting, invalidating my rant.
@GlassMask: any scenario where we have the final say won't work (because it implies a possible future where we choose to leave him alive).
Slyvena said that we can't alter this fate without a moonshot ethos...
...So, Waters must have the final say: no matter if we throw him in prison, or the asylum, or gain overwhelming power (but not the moonshot ethos), he'll still come after us and succeed within the not-so-distant future. How (despite our hypothetical overwhelming power)? It'smagic ethos, I don't gotta explain shit...?
(You acknowledge this by looping back to point (1), but I'm not sure you've realized how comprehensive the circumstances are under which we must loop back to point (1). Many of those circumstances are, frankly, unbelievable.)
Far more likely for the prophecy's fulfillment, Waters doesn't give us the chance to gain said phenomenal power to begin with, which again implies the short timeline before the likely mortal battle.
@GlassMask: any scenario where we have the final say won't work (because it implies a possible future where we choose to leave him alive).
Slyvena said that we can't alter this fate without a moonshot ethos...
...So, Waters must have the final say: no matter if we throw him in prison, or the asylum, or gain overwhelming power (but not the moonshot ethos), he'll still come after us and succeed within the not-so-distant future. How (despite our hypothetical overwhelming power)? It's
(You acknowledge this by looping back to point (1), but I'm not sure you've realized how comprehensive the circumstances are under which we must loop back to point (1). Many of those circumstances are, frankly, unbelievable.)
Far more likely for the prophecy's fulfillment, Waters doesn't give us the chance to gain said phenomenal power to begin with, which again implies the short timeline before the likely mortal battle.
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Edifier
Trusted within thoughts.
- Location
- Court of Moon Wizards
I've been thinking about Concordance. We lack most parts that allow us to see it. Lack parts that allow us to manipulate it.
Cleaver is a mostly autonomous Ethos. It can intuit a lot, It disrupts, it pulls on others, and be activated in bursts.
Its main use is in filling Tension with gravitas and snapping things in place. Mostly reeling stuff in like a fisher. Tho sometimes also imbuing gravitas into objects.
The other part is collecting data through Fractures. Or manipulating existing Fractures to look at the other side. The bubble-wrap of fate.
The bubble space with lines is beyond the Fractures, we have no awareness of it.
We only perceive Tension within ourselves, and the gravitas that spuns it up. Like reeling in bubbly fish.
I think the bubbles represent important events and the choices people make. Some are made by Lilly. If The Ladder notices overlap with Lilly's bubbles it contacts Rings to get clearer snapshots.
The Ladder mostly peeks through the fractures and actively ladles the bubbles.
Rungs of Wisdom use Tension to... snag more details about relevant bits to Lilly's course.
Imprinting a copy of a bubble into Lilly's soul for the Ladder to decode and pass to Lilly as words.
When Lilly is in a battle of life and death the overlaps become very obvious. That is why the advice becomes very active.
In Sample Space's power through the Fracture it focuses on feeling out the bubbles of Lilly's current action and conclusion, a super narrow space.
There it finds a result, no matter how unlikely as in how small the bubble is, where Lilly succeeds. A lot of Tention is channeled to copy that bubble and make Lilly reenact it within that short moment.
Ply there Line, Critical Pivot, Junction Sense.
I think those powers involve sensing the Tension within herself, and those she sends out through the air and Fractures.
Tension lines we can not perceive.
I suspect there is tension in objects, and Lilly can connect to it and pull on it with Ply the Line, to give it importance. Give the object gravitas and a little bit of fate.
Critical Pivot I believe involves intuitively pulling on others' tension lines, and having them line up with Lilly's flow.
If someone does something with them there will be ripples of gravitas sent from the people using it.
We can only sense the tension within us. But it's everywhere.
Junction Sense is feeling when her own lines of Tension are affected. It allows Lilly to sense a disturbance in the force, react, and disrupt other peoples Tension lines.
Possibly even our own gravitas pulls on other people and their lines.
Fractures are fairly unaltered. There have been comments on how we don't look like a Concordance user from them not floating around us.
I'm thinking of the person who found our sleeping body. She was able to get a read on our body-state in detail. Unconscious, bugs eating clothes.
I would think an skill with awareness, either Fractures or Tention from Lilly's history. Following fully realized bubbles within the Concordance space. And from there where bubbles become varied, the present, there is an stable one. She sees Lilly as she lay asleep beneath the tree.
Or her powers do it efficiently instead.
Or she has an Essence Ethos, since Essence can use a family link to find people.
Really, someone with an awareness Concordance ethos could shine light on this.
Cleaver is a mostly autonomous Ethos. It can intuit a lot, It disrupts, it pulls on others, and be activated in bursts.
Its main use is in filling Tension with gravitas and snapping things in place. Mostly reeling stuff in like a fisher. Tho sometimes also imbuing gravitas into objects.
The other part is collecting data through Fractures. Or manipulating existing Fractures to look at the other side. The bubble-wrap of fate.
The bubble space with lines is beyond the Fractures, we have no awareness of it.
We only perceive Tension within ourselves, and the gravitas that spuns it up. Like reeling in bubbly fish.
I think the bubbles represent important events and the choices people make. Some are made by Lilly. If The Ladder notices overlap with Lilly's bubbles it contacts Rings to get clearer snapshots.
The Ladder mostly peeks through the fractures and actively ladles the bubbles.
Rungs of Wisdom use Tension to... snag more details about relevant bits to Lilly's course.
Imprinting a copy of a bubble into Lilly's soul for the Ladder to decode and pass to Lilly as words.
When Lilly is in a battle of life and death the overlaps become very obvious. That is why the advice becomes very active.
In Sample Space's power through the Fracture it focuses on feeling out the bubbles of Lilly's current action and conclusion, a super narrow space.
There it finds a result, no matter how unlikely as in how small the bubble is, where Lilly succeeds. A lot of Tention is channeled to copy that bubble and make Lilly reenact it within that short moment.
Ply there Line, Critical Pivot, Junction Sense.
I think those powers involve sensing the Tension within herself, and those she sends out through the air and Fractures.
Tension lines we can not perceive.
I suspect there is tension in objects, and Lilly can connect to it and pull on it with Ply the Line, to give it importance. Give the object gravitas and a little bit of fate.
Critical Pivot I believe involves intuitively pulling on others' tension lines, and having them line up with Lilly's flow.
If someone does something with them there will be ripples of gravitas sent from the people using it.
We can only sense the tension within us. But it's everywhere.
Junction Sense is feeling when her own lines of Tension are affected. It allows Lilly to sense a disturbance in the force, react, and disrupt other peoples Tension lines.
Possibly even our own gravitas pulls on other people and their lines.
Fractures are fairly unaltered. There have been comments on how we don't look like a Concordance user from them not floating around us.
I'm thinking of the person who found our sleeping body. She was able to get a read on our body-state in detail. Unconscious, bugs eating clothes.
I would think an skill with awareness, either Fractures or Tention from Lilly's history. Following fully realized bubbles within the Concordance space. And from there where bubbles become varied, the present, there is an stable one. She sees Lilly as she lay asleep beneath the tree.
Or her powers do it efficiently instead.
Or she has an Essence Ethos, since Essence can use a family link to find people.
Really, someone with an awareness Concordance ethos could shine light on this.
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I think you are extrapolating massively based off of tiny evidence (to the point of ignoring the author when the author says "Hey dont necessarily assume long term is only this month, it could be later on"), assuming only one possibility will work when we genuinely do not know all that much. We don't know our resources, his resources, the politics, etc etc etc.
Wanting to essentially rebel based off of tiny evidence is foolish. The kingdom has extremely high leveled people and an army who they would send to hunt down rebels. Getting too much heat is extremely dangerous. Any plan should try and minimize looking a rebellion because we are not strong enough to win. Lilly looking like she had a mere inverted ethos is enough the Fake-Lily does not believe in her chances of success. A rebellion would attract way more heat.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, we should take Marigold as a benchmark here for the level of power needed to have a fair shot adventuring on our own. Level 15+ with a very mature Apotheotic Ethos.
We're way closer to that then we should be given our aggregate level, but I don't think we've got any Tier 30+ powers at our disposal yet.
The good news at least! She looks to be a fully fed and watered Valerie in terms of overall combat ability, which means Valerie probably isn't that terrifyingly strong (Though [Will Winnower]'s Area of Effect is pretty terrifying).
God, we've got two Apothetoics inbound, Lilly's got an Ascendent on top of everything else, and then you've got Waters with the most firepower even if he's also got what's probably the most conventional force.
Good thinking though about Bedrock potentially being a potent attack against Valerie! If she's literally functioning right now by mind controlling herself, resetting her to her own best state is... Well, probably not going to make things worse at least!
We're way closer to that then we should be given our aggregate level, but I don't think we've got any Tier 30+ powers at our disposal yet.
The good news at least! She looks to be a fully fed and watered Valerie in terms of overall combat ability, which means Valerie probably isn't that terrifyingly strong (Though [Will Winnower]'s Area of Effect is pretty terrifying).
God, we've got two Apothetoics inbound, Lilly's got an Ascendent on top of everything else, and then you've got Waters with the most firepower even if he's also got what's probably the most conventional force.
Good thinking though about Bedrock potentially being a potent attack against Valerie! If she's literally functioning right now by mind controlling herself, resetting her to her own best state is... Well, probably not going to make things worse at least!
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The possible timeline being wide was already more-or-less a given; Lilly could always luck into surviving 50x confrontations so that the final battle wouldn't be for a few years. It says nothing, however, about the distribution of said timelines; 80% of mortal battles could be within the 2nd month (as a random example).
The likely methods for the prophecy's fulfillment still lean towards an earlier, rather than later finish; I haven't seen any arguments invalidating this point.
You say we don't know enough? That's fair--we should find out more! My original protest was against the preemptive ruling out of guard recruitment because Waters "could definitely escalate faster than we can" (paraphrasing). Keeping our options open is reasonable gameplay1--but also, keep in mind that the evidence does point towards a confrontation before we have a chance to really raise our personal level.
Optimizer!Lilly didn't have the information we do about Martin and his hooks; she could very well decide differently given what was now revealed--and this is even plausible, given reliable loyalties. If we're a good force multiplier, Optimizer!Lilly would be a great one. (And still have the recourse of GTFOing.)
1Up to a point; past that point, Martin would start to doubt our commitment
The likely methods for the prophecy's fulfillment still lean towards an earlier, rather than later finish; I haven't seen any arguments invalidating this point.
You say we don't know enough? That's fair--we should find out more! My original protest was against the preemptive ruling out of guard recruitment because Waters "could definitely escalate faster than we can" (paraphrasing). Keeping our options open is reasonable gameplay1--but also, keep in mind that the evidence does point towards a confrontation before we have a chance to really raise our personal level.
Optimizer!Lilly didn't have the information we do about Martin and his hooks; she could very well decide differently given what was now revealed--and this is even plausible, given reliable loyalties. If we're a good force multiplier, Optimizer!Lilly would be a great one. (And still have the recourse of GTFOing.)
1Up to a point; past that point, Martin would start to doubt our commitment
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Half Moon
In the end, there is no end.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Alright. Valerie is mind-controlling herself. And this is not a new development. How interesting. Very, very, interesting.
Aren't we glad we got our counter mind control ethos?
I'm excited to meet Marigold, but I don't think Lilly will like her. Too bad. I do.
Aren't we glad we got our counter mind control ethos?
I'm excited to meet Marigold, but I don't think Lilly will like her. Too bad. I do.
After the experience she just had she might empathize just a little bit. But yeah, probably not. Understandable or not it seems like she's well and truly off the deep end before we even get into her relationship with the flower and her plans for Lilly.
@Slyvena I almost don't want to ask but given the general if not exact date someone gets their Ethos is knowable, is this sort of thing common in an attempt to encourage Ethea like Service to Man?
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Half Moon
In the end, there is no end.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Alright, new theory. Apotheotic Ethos are personal interventions by the powers that be. [We all Drown Together] was a bargain directly offered by the Flower, while the Maw doesn't know how to talk to people, so it just shoved Foṟ̴͍̇m Fr̵̠̂̓ạ̷̾cture (̶̩̲͒͂ near us.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I think it's more "Apotheotic Ethae exist to pull someone out of the Melange layer to become a new Transcendent on their own terms" or something. While Ascendent usually means that you're guiding someone to influence matters up there?
Or alternately, it's a 'Transcendent Faction' thing and they do the same thing. Apotheotic makes you a God, Ascendent is the Unaligned Spirit version, and there might be a third phrase for Demonic patrons?
And the Maw, being the OCP that's fucking everything up, can pick whatever version it wants.
Or Fourth? I didn't really get the sense that Angels were really of a kind with things like the Flower.
It's kinda vague what a God even is, or if any actually exist. Yalstreet was apparently the first angel (and perhaps the first ever?) to merit the description. On the other hand, Lilly will supposedly become the first demigod, and she doesn't seem remotely on the same level as even an Angel (who presumably can power multiple ethos). Maybe standards have slipped since the First Era?
(Humans believe in previous gods and now Aurora, but don't seem to have any real knowledge on this front.)
As a stretch, the Plan could be an endeavor to breed humans into (previously nonexistent?) gods, the apotheotic ethos being used for the purpose. Not enough info, unfortunately, aside from the name... but I have doubts, unless gods aren't really important (Flower doesn't seem the type to create something more important than herself).
(Humans believe in previous gods and now Aurora, but don't seem to have any real knowledge on this front.)
As a stretch, the Plan could be an endeavor to breed humans into (previously nonexistent?) gods, the apotheotic ethos being used for the purpose. Not enough info, unfortunately, aside from the name... but I have doubts, unless gods aren't really important (Flower doesn't seem the type to create something more important than herself).
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well I'm happy that not everyone is considering telling him the start of the revolution o now lets try to guess about secret questions.
Secret challenges could maybe be finding flaws or highlighting interesting tidbits in Lord waters personal guards. I was hoping that we could use bedrock and subversion to get at least some of them to turn on him if he looked like he was starting to lose. For example If we could kill Seamus Kaymie might gather up the courage needed to strike at them from behind and I was wondering if {Subversion} was in play long enough to make any permanent change to Charel.
The other thing I was considering was if when we return meant that they would bring a possible counter for cleaver of fortune
For finding out who the traitor was there were nine named characters who entered into the forest so assuming that the spy was one of the trusted elites rather then a townsfolk who heard gossup or one of the greater guard who didn't hear about everything we did there are only a few choices. Martin and Lilly are two people that we know didn't talk about it so there would be seven options well six because I'm going to assume that it's not Plasil Wam because he was suspecting foul play because of how they didn't hear about the dungeon earlier.
{{Plasil Wam}}: "We're still a half hours distance away and it has this much reach. How was it able to build so long unnoticed?" Given the noble is in charge of the area he's probably assuming that the village was set up to die and grabbing Lilly before they cleared the dungeon was Lord waters trying to get things back on course.
I'd want to say that saving Chen's life would have lead to him not snitching on us but we don't know that for sure so any of the others could be the spy.
Moll Yannicks – Bulwark/Charger (Pithe)
Tovak Shires – Reliable Offense (Pithe)
Rear Five:
Legle Tal'k – Metamagician / Ward Breaker (Mana/Oath)
Stephen Hantree – Close Quarter Area Supremacy (Mana)
Yola Malis – Condition Management (Oath)
Marius Chen – Concentrated Blaster (Mana)
Secret challenges could maybe be finding flaws or highlighting interesting tidbits in Lord waters personal guards. I was hoping that we could use bedrock and subversion to get at least some of them to turn on him if he looked like he was starting to lose. For example If we could kill Seamus Kaymie might gather up the courage needed to strike at them from behind and I was wondering if {Subversion} was in play long enough to make any permanent change to Charel.
The other thing I was considering was if when we return meant that they would bring a possible counter for cleaver of fortune
For finding out who the traitor was there were nine named characters who entered into the forest so assuming that the spy was one of the trusted elites rather then a townsfolk who heard gossup or one of the greater guard who didn't hear about everything we did there are only a few choices. Martin and Lilly are two people that we know didn't talk about it so there would be seven options well six because I'm going to assume that it's not Plasil Wam because he was suspecting foul play because of how they didn't hear about the dungeon earlier.
{{Plasil Wam}}: "We're still a half hours distance away and it has this much reach. How was it able to build so long unnoticed?" Given the noble is in charge of the area he's probably assuming that the village was set up to die and grabbing Lilly before they cleared the dungeon was Lord waters trying to get things back on course.
I'd want to say that saving Chen's life would have lead to him not snitching on us but we don't know that for sure so any of the others could be the spy.
Moll Yannicks – Bulwark/Charger (Pithe)
Tovak Shires – Reliable Offense (Pithe)
Rear Five:
Legle Tal'k – Metamagician / Ward Breaker (Mana/Oath)
Stephen Hantree – Close Quarter Area Supremacy (Mana)
Yola Malis – Condition Management (Oath)
Marius Chen – Concentrated Blaster (Mana)
- Location
- Somewhere.
wat? Why do you have this assumption at all?
...If I suspect anybody, I suspect somebody with the line to an outside entity that could pass messages readily at hand. Who was the guy with the gray lady, anyway?
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
Myah's Diary (If She Knew How To Write)
8th Day, 3rd Moon
Dear Diary,
The hunger is getting worse each day. I'd been trying to stick to feeding off the beggars in the streets at night without killing them, but I'm running out of beggars that haven't regained their Essence yet. This means that I'll either have to try finding additional people to siphon off of (increasing the chance of being discovered) or…finish off the beggars I know about, which I really don't want to think about. In addition, the wolf attack has made everyone skittish and jumping at shadows, which will make them a bit more wary if they feel a sudden chill or a girl out where she shouldn't be. I'm running out of options, but I don't know if I can run off without the Diviner finding me and the Watch dragging me back until the Noosemen come to claim me. I had wondered about faking my death like Lilly did, but either it was truly an accident as she claims or she doesn't wish to share that talent with others.
But why would Lilly hide? The Girl Who Lived, the Hero of Harmuph, raise a glass to her health! Most of the guards I had talked to said that she had helped them see in the dark and coordinate like a true army, but some say that she followed Captain Martin and some elites into the Wolves' Den to stem the tide of monsters. All Yola would saw was that "she was competent enough at her role for a greenhorn, didn't turn and run when in actual danger," which is practically a glowing commendation from her. But I haven't seen Lilly in town since; apparently she's "recuperating". And now I hear that the local Lord has taken an interest. Good old Lilly, whisked away to a life of glory and privilege, shaking off the dust of this nowhere town behind her. …Lucky her.
Aurora, I don't know if you're listening, especially to someone like me, but I'm begging you. Please let me find a way to stop this hunger without killing anyone. Please let me find a way out of this wretched town. Please keep me from my fate from being only known as the Vampire Girl of Harmuph.
1st Day, 4th Moon
Dear Diary,
I don't know whether give an offering to Aurora at the next town or curse whatever fey spirit overheard my thoughts. Strangely enough, my prayers have all been answered.
First, I am now able to have my fill when I need to without any guilt. It turns out that Lilly has nigh-endless amounts of Essence to spare. I nearly wept when I felt the hunger fully abate for the first time in months.
Second, I have managed to find a way to escape Harmuph without anyone looking for me. That's because I've left town with the Silas' after they told me that they were on the run from Lord Waters, who had apparently tried to kidnap Lilly in broad daylight and had tried to burn their house down. My father said that he would cover for my absence and say that I died in the fire while sleeping over…and that if I valued my life, I wouldn't show him to be a liar for the rest of his days.
Third, I no longer consider myself to be like a vampire, for I have met an actual one now, and I wouldn't say that I am like her at all.
Dear Diary,
The hunger is getting worse each day. I'd been trying to stick to feeding off the beggars in the streets at night without killing them, but I'm running out of beggars that haven't regained their Essence yet. This means that I'll either have to try finding additional people to siphon off of (increasing the chance of being discovered) or…finish off the beggars I know about, which I really don't want to think about. In addition, the wolf attack has made everyone skittish and jumping at shadows, which will make them a bit more wary if they feel a sudden chill or a girl out where she shouldn't be. I'm running out of options, but I don't know if I can run off without the Diviner finding me and the Watch dragging me back until the Noosemen come to claim me. I had wondered about faking my death like Lilly did, but either it was truly an accident as she claims or she doesn't wish to share that talent with others.
But why would Lilly hide? The Girl Who Lived, the Hero of Harmuph, raise a glass to her health! Most of the guards I had talked to said that she had helped them see in the dark and coordinate like a true army, but some say that she followed Captain Martin and some elites into the Wolves' Den to stem the tide of monsters. All Yola would saw was that "she was competent enough at her role for a greenhorn, didn't turn and run when in actual danger," which is practically a glowing commendation from her. But I haven't seen Lilly in town since; apparently she's "recuperating". And now I hear that the local Lord has taken an interest. Good old Lilly, whisked away to a life of glory and privilege, shaking off the dust of this nowhere town behind her. …Lucky her.
Aurora, I don't know if you're listening, especially to someone like me, but I'm begging you. Please let me find a way to stop this hunger without killing anyone. Please let me find a way out of this wretched town. Please keep me from my fate from being only known as the Vampire Girl of Harmuph.
1st Day, 4th Moon
Dear Diary,
I don't know whether give an offering to Aurora at the next town or curse whatever fey spirit overheard my thoughts. Strangely enough, my prayers have all been answered.
First, I am now able to have my fill when I need to without any guilt. It turns out that Lilly has nigh-endless amounts of Essence to spare. I nearly wept when I felt the hunger fully abate for the first time in months.
Second, I have managed to find a way to escape Harmuph without anyone looking for me. That's because I've left town with the Silas' after they told me that they were on the run from Lord Waters, who had apparently tried to kidnap Lilly in broad daylight and had tried to burn their house down. My father said that he would cover for my absence and say that I died in the fire while sleeping over…and that if I valued my life, I wouldn't show him to be a liar for the rest of his days.
Third, I no longer consider myself to be like a vampire, for I have met an actual one now, and I wouldn't say that I am like her at all.
Given the dungeon grows by killing people what exactly do you expect a member of the watch to be thinking when they hear about a hidden dungeon growing and consuming everyone in the area when they know that their patrols should have caught it except that someone was hiding it which was confirmed as possible in the update. If someone is wondering if the dungeon that almost killed them was grown for the purpose well there are only a limited number of people who would gain something from having everyone eaten and my thoughts went to lord waters because dungeons are used to grow stronger and if the militia was overwhelmed he would be the one likely to be called in and would gain levels and glory from defeating the dungeon.
The only assumptions made was that a the spy was in the inner watch which I mentioned and b Lord Waters had the ability to find and hide the dungeon before anyone else. I already know that he would consider a dungeon where he could power level his ethos more important and valuable then a village of peasants that he would happily kill over almost nothing.
- Location
- Who Knows Where
Fan Ethos: Foundational Edition
Placeholder Don't read
Placeholder, just because formatting gets messed up otherwise and I can't figure out how to use invisitext aaaaa
Placeholder, just because formatting gets messed up otherwise and I can't figure out how to use invisitext aaaaa
[Inculcation Kiln | 9268-V, First of Many] (Foundational): (Pithe)
Placement should be patterned to favor disadvantaged regions of ideally lower population. Moderate limits on construction sentience, limited scaling with suppression attempt effectiveness. Probationary approval granted to rotation of on-plane agents for trial moderation. Allocated resource generation to increase with mental framework development. While unlikely to replace Blanket Weaponiser, "groundwork for powerbase development" deemed satisfactory for relative cost to Weavers. Sufficient entertainment value, if nothing else. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY:::
[Hostile Expanse | 6003-E, Stopgap Concealment] (Foundational): (Legend)
Domain boundaries to be heavily enforced. Construct availability and artefact generation explicitly restricted, suppression and population efforts to be halted with extreme prejudice. Ranging entities allowed sentience and potency to exceed above-average to exceptional Integrators. Placement sites to be recalled at conclusion of true objectives, minimizing Integrator investigation. If partial leakage occurs, entities are to determine and execute individual plans to fulfill primary directives. In the event of anomalous interference, genocide resolution is preauthorized. General temperament is defined at borderline paranoia, with limited flexibility. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY::: :::IMMINENT RECALL MANDATORY:::
[Shadow Realm | 0400-C, Protocol Enforcement] (Foundational): (Legend)
Prototype iteration of Malice Labyrinth, redesigned and repurposed to contain aberrant entities or unacceptably disruptive conflict. Customizable Sublayer to initially model itself on existing environments. Minimum resource generation authorized to prevent premature expiration. Spatial and temporal boundaries to be black-boxed by Overseer's personal measures. In the event of adaptation, empowered Entity generation approved at discretion of on-plane agent. Under regular supervision, entities are to remain indefinitely contained until variable conditions are met. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY:::
Note: Manoth. Behave, or we will take your toys away.
Placement should be patterned to favor disadvantaged regions of ideally lower population. Moderate limits on construction sentience, limited scaling with suppression attempt effectiveness. Probationary approval granted to rotation of on-plane agents for trial moderation. Allocated resource generation to increase with mental framework development. While unlikely to replace Blanket Weaponiser, "groundwork for powerbase development" deemed satisfactory for relative cost to Weavers. Sufficient entertainment value, if nothing else. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY:::
[Hostile Expanse | 6003-E, Stopgap Concealment] (Foundational): (Legend)
Domain boundaries to be heavily enforced. Construct availability and artefact generation explicitly restricted, suppression and population efforts to be halted with extreme prejudice. Ranging entities allowed sentience and potency to exceed above-average to exceptional Integrators. Placement sites to be recalled at conclusion of true objectives, minimizing Integrator investigation. If partial leakage occurs, entities are to determine and execute individual plans to fulfill primary directives. In the event of anomalous interference, genocide resolution is preauthorized. General temperament is defined at borderline paranoia, with limited flexibility. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY::: :::IMMINENT RECALL MANDATORY:::
[Shadow Realm | 0400-C, Protocol Enforcement] (Foundational): (Legend)
Prototype iteration of Malice Labyrinth, redesigned and repurposed to contain aberrant entities or unacceptably disruptive conflict. Customizable Sublayer to initially model itself on existing environments. Minimum resource generation authorized to prevent premature expiration. Spatial and temporal boundaries to be black-boxed by Overseer's personal measures. In the event of adaptation, empowered Entity generation approved at discretion of on-plane agent. Under regular supervision, entities are to remain indefinitely contained until variable conditions are met. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY:::
Note: Manoth. Behave, or we will take your toys away.
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- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Okay time to take a look at the Foundational Ethea since I said I would and I think I have more ideas what some of them mean.
First some questions I have about this. First given that Foundational Ethos is called by Evie as Foundational Integration Vectors but what is it integrated to? Cause Ethos seem to be integrated into the Soul but where is a normal foundation? Is it just physical land because it's a dungeon? That feels a bit too mundane. Maybe they're integrated into Dungeon Cores? But that implies that that the Core comes before the Dungeon which could be possible but would feel weird.
Second where do normal Foundational Ethea get their power from? Cause normal Ethea seem to get their power from the Soul of their user. Do the Weavers have to pay the costs for a dungeon instead of just slapping them down and having them be self-sustaining? If so than that would explain why they apparently only use them in particular circumstances instead of just randomly putting them down and seeing what happens. Got to get the best bang for your buck, yeah?
Speaking of Weavers do they directly run dungeons? Cause it seems like many of the descriptions of the ethea that they're directly managed with user restrictions and not automatous.
Finally there's the question of what the numbers-letters mean. I assume it means order of creation with lower numbers referring to earlier creations and the letter(s) referring to category order with A being earliest and Z being the latest. But it could easily be a filing system with no regard to date or whatever.
There's also the question about what happens if a category reaches 9999-Z the max. Is the next one 0000-AA, 0001-AA, 0000-2A, ect? Cause there's very different systems for how it would work out and I can't tell based off the data we have.
It's honestly a bit weird that this is called Rapid Iterator since the description doesn't mention the foundational being rapid nor doing many iterations. Like I guess the mentions of how you need to balance every thing implies that you are making constant changes to get the best result but still feels like it could have described how it works better rather just having to assume based off the name. Like a theme of rapidly creating different iterations of something feels like it would easily be mentioned in the description.
Iterators number with its 2A seems like it's a rather newish Foundational Ethos though that might be a very wrong assumption. But it's certainly at least one that isn't near the first assuming the number is referring to creation order.
'Efficient Tension Sustainment' so the efficient in this title/designation implies that cost is a factor for Foundationals. Also it seems like tension sustainment is such a priority to the Weavers that having an efficient way of doing it is valued or noteworthy.
'Dominant Occupants' hmm it doesn't just say humans so is there other potential 'Dominants' besides humans that a Foundational could be sent against or is it just Weavers using big words because they're assholes? Basically I'm wondering if there's other races like elves and dwarfs that the Ethos Weavers are also messing with.
'Typical imbued predators' so animals can naturally be buffed up by powers. Makes me wonder if things like the Alpha Wolves and the Space Stags are actually common in some areas just without the hivemind controlling them.
'Recommend limits on level of sentience allowed in constructions unless local entities are sufficient to resist oversaturation.' basically don't make the dungeon monsters too smart unless you're sure there's enough adventures or hunters to kill them all anyways even if you have Goblins and Kobolds wiping entire parties with traps. Implies that Foundationals can flat out make sentient creatures well constructs since dungeons can also make something else called Entities which is different than Constructs.
'Typical opening parameter should be to evenly contest integrator forces with upscaled facsimiles of existing wildlife and coordinate their movements,' basically what we saw in our battle the Alphas were upgraded facsimiles of wolves that coordinated together. Though our situation was different since the Rapid Iterator seemed to taken control of actual wolves instead of making constructs that look like them and it less coordinated their movements than directly puppet them like a hivemind since I doubt most Rapid Iterator dungeons are allowed to pull that ambush trick it tried.
'then tweak to keep stress levels within the optimal zone of development.' interesting this mentions stress and not Gravitas. Maybe Stress produces Gravitas as a byproduct or maybe there's a deeper connection to Ethea and Stress? Cause Champion does mention Identity Shattering Trials as being needed to get the 2nd Stage safely. So maybe the old 'with great stress comes great powers' adage is true here?
'Advise life-analogous constructions be rendered infertile to avoid non-productive exponential threats.' So breeding into an exponential is a possibility and not hard coded to not happen. That's not at all scary and worrying. Thankfully whoever or whatever is in charge of the local Rapid Iterator seems impatient for one reason or another since while we dealt with a lot of wolves we didn't get buried under an ocean of them. Maybe RI can only cheat breeding speed so much so you can't just breed an army of of super bears in a few weeks? Maybe it's a resource issue since I doubt the Foundational has infinite power/Essence to throw around to run an infinite army.
'Recommend limits on quantity of streamlining boons so as to not trivialize related Vector incentives" Hmm what the hell does this mean? Can Dungeons give power ups to people as rewards for clearing them and this warning means to not go too trigger happy with them because it disincentivize Ethos growth? If so then those boons must be potent shit if they can make improving your ethos look like small potatoes then again I might be using Lilly's growth as a baseline which is unfair.
Or maybe it means 'streamlining boons' to mean Gravitas and so means to not hand too much experience too fast so people have an actual chance to train their Ethos? Cause as good as it would be to have tier 10 Punch Evil if you have 1/10 Grasp you'll probably use the power completely wrong. But if this is true than that means Gravitas itself is a shortcut that can be handed out which feels wrong. Like yeah once you past the first milestone you need to have Grasp higher than power tier so you can't instantly make a noob into a demigod by injecting Gravitas but still I feel Gravitas is more than just a short cut steroid.
'Towering Edifice to Heaven' A tower to heaven. Pretty bare bones and could refer to the dungeon literally taking the form of a giant tower or maybe a reference to a Babel type myth. Given that the tower seems to arbitrarily become harder the higher you go I wonder if you actually reach the top (if that's even possible) if you would reach Heaven or maybe, to put it better, Ascend to a higher being since I imagine to be able to reach the top you would have to be super swole that even if you started as a mortal you might not end as one.
'7958-A Series' why does this one mention series but none of the others? Anyways it seems like this ethos came late in the A series but given that A is the first letter of the alphabet it's probably still pretty early overall.
'Recommend use only to rebalance conflict trending too far toward an unscheduled genocide resolution; re-establish status quo through new equalising variables.' Makes me wonder what kind of situation prompted making this Foundational since as many others have noted it seems like a weird way to stop a genocide. Anyways unscheduled genocide is a big scary phrase and I'm not sure exactly how introducing new variables via Tower would change that despite us having the ethos. Maybe artefacts are big deals so much that easy access to them can lead to an Arthur with Excalibur situation? Probably close to the truth given the mention of how artefacts can lead to synergy cascade.
'Pseudo-matter imposition constraints relaxed, though care should be taken not to generate synergy cascades and unintentionally disrupt an otherwise stabilized situation' This implies that all Foundationals use pseudo-matter imposition just that there's hard limits with Tower having more relaxed limits. I believe we figured this to be because Tower makes a lot of Artefacts but I like the idea that it's literally because it needs so much pseudo-matter to make the giant tower. Anyways I wonder how this pseudo-matter works. I've already speculated that Mindset! Lilly used Gravitas and Oaken Core to make our current artefact. So is Gravitas easily turned into pseudo-matter or related to it? Or does it have to do with Tower's Source being Deific which we suspect has to deal with powers of a different layer which could probably also be used for pseudo-matter
'Strength of initial ranging entities should be severely constrained so as to not eliminate existing inhabitants; the goal is redistribution not eradication' This and 'the stabilized situation' mention above make it clear that while the Weavers or whatever in charge of Foundationals seem to not care for causing human deaths if it results in some data and growth they at least want to make sure it isn't complete chaos when they can help it. Though judging by our conflict with Rapid Iterator it seems Maw has taken/corrupted some of the Foundationals and causing Chaos with them.
'Toleration of Domestication has not been granted for this iteration,' Wonder why Tower in particular is banned from having monster be made into pets/familiars/summons/however domestication works in this setting . Maybe the Powers that Be think that pets would make the nation too powerful in the long term? Since if they can get a breed of dragons or whatever than even after Tower leaves they'll have greatly altered the balance forever? But wouldn't Artefacts be the same? Though I guess Artefacts are inherently less able to expand that tamed monster breeding. Anyways I hope this limit doesn't carry over to future Foundational Ethea we get cause I want monster pets.
'upscale investment arbitrarily to resist any long term group suppression.' Basically you can't conquer the Tower since it can arbitrarily get harder and harder to stop people from suppressing it
'Reinterpretation Seed' What seed is being reinterpreted in this? The Seed of Life?
'566-B' Why isn't there a 0 in front of the 566? Cause it seems the system works off of having 4 digits even if that digit is 0. Honestly the numbers feel like they're kind of random in our they're set up like there's multiple different organizing systems instead of one unifying system which is annoying. But anyways assuming this means B series 566 than this is actually a pretty early Foundational even if after the A series, Which implies that Manoth and her Inverted Ethos project have been around for a while despite still being in beta test.
'Manoth Placement Approval Only ' Does this mean only Manoth can approve placing this Foundational or that Manoth needs others approval to place this? Probably the second one since it seems like Manoth would just throw this and other Inverted Ethea like candy if she could.
' (Oath) {Inverted} ' Still don't really understand what Inverted Ethea really are besides edgy and based off being hurt. I really wish we knew what Inverted meant since all it makes me think is opposite power after going through a traumatic break but how does that work for a dungeon? Interesting that of the two canon Inverted that we know the Source of that they're both Oath and in the same update though not sure if that's coincidence or not. Wonder how Oath factors into this since as I will mention below this feels more like an anti-essence thing than Oath.
'{{Oh my. What have you done Ev'aclliál? Hmm… Here, pick mine.}} ' Darker Orange but who cares it's close enough for you to understand that this is Manoth. So interesting that she speaks to us (well Evie but she's literally attached to our Soul so it totally counts) since that means that she (for some reason Manoth gives me female vibes) noticed us and Evie messing around with Foundationals. Which means other higher entities probably did as well if maybe not having Evie's Discord account to message her when they noticed. Not sure if Manoth is really on our side and giving us a good Foundational ethos, trying to experiment with her stuff even now, or both cause she seems to have very peculiar ideas about ethea and trauma. Anyways hopefully we didn't piss her off for refusing her offer.
' Case by Case implementation only. ' No Manoth you can't just drop a Demon Lord Castle here because we let you drop one in a desert the previous Era aka precedent doesn't matter you still need actual permission and not automatic approval. Or at least I assume that's what this means.
'Manoth has agreed to not disrupt the overall plan, but is permitted minor experimentation in sidelined regions. Placement preferrable in static environmental conditions not suitable for more subtle progression stimulation. Regions with low biodiversity would be a pragmatic choice.'
Read we managed to get her to not screw everything over but can't stop her messing about and disrupting minor areas so we give her regions we don't really care about and whose inevitable loss won't hurt us in the long term. Using the dungeon as bludgeon on areas that won't change even if we try and shadow run changes is the preferred use and to minimize deaths put in place where there's not a lot living in the first place.
'Artefact generation is forbidden due to risk of regionally disruptive synergies being too great; specific appeals tentatively allowed.' Artefacts could potentially be too OP and game breaking so they're not allowed unless Manoth convinces someone for specific artefacts. Really makes me wonder how OP artefacts get since all the synergy talk makes me think that the right artefact in the hands of the right person with the right ethos could singlehandedly change the world. I guess that's what the Vector Interactions part on our Chasis notes on the spreadsheet refers to. Note to self try and bullshit using Melded Carapace with Primordial Chassis since it's totally armor right
?
'Exponential Threat Creation is henceforth explicitly restricted. ' Read: Manoth found a loophole before and Seed got really out of hand so we need to make double sure she can't create a World Disaster with the dungeon in the ass end of nowhere.
'Malleable Elemental Pioneer' So Malleable to even Weavers and Pioneer. Seems like a messing around toolkit to experiment with the elements in whatever way you want to. Want to make a Super Mario lava world platformer? This is you Ethos. Want to make a Legend of Zelda Water Temple puzzle that too works with this. Basically I imagine this to be a sort of Minecraft Foundational where it has a lot of tools that you could potentially make anything if having to do a lot of work arounds and mods.
' 1000-A' Pretty early Foundational to be in the A series and at a mere one thousand.
''No Focal Concept Selected' So the purpose description name is called Focal Concept. Makes sense. Wonder why this one doesn't have one? Because it's a bunch of tools that you could make anything so there's no focal concept that it's used for unlike Rapid Iterator being an efficient threat creator?
'Density should never drop below a single instance per 20000 square kilometres in identified high-magic regions' What fuck does this mean? Like I'm just having trouble trying to understand. Is it saying you can't have a room over 20km^2 or that is 20km^2 the minimum size. Probably closer to the former than the later though I'm not sure if instance is dungeon rooms. Is instance the physical domain of the dungeon? Cause that may make more sense you don't want your dungeon being too big/too small especially since this seems like a messing around dungeon than something involving the Plan(tm).
'Sideline regions may diverge upward to one per 200000.' You can make your element amusement park 10 times bigger if it's in an area we don't give a shit about. Wonder if a region having high-magic is the difference to the Weavers between an important area and a sidelined one. Cause if it's not than what is the rule for a high-magic sidelined area? Is it 20km^2 or 200km^2?
'Recommend progression not be left in omni-state on placement, but customized to tangentially match nearby premium Integrators.' Hmm what's an omni-state? A blank canvas mode where the dungeon is all elements at once or equal amounts of each? And it's not recommended to do that and instead base it off of close by premium integrators (Rare or better Ethea?)? So if you have a water bender nearby make a water dungeon and a fire one for a flame guy? Makes me wonder what Magical elements this world has since this is all under Mana and so probably doesn't mess with Essence, Flow or Concordance stuff.
'Spellworks should likewise be situated within a reasonable and reachable scope for suppression attempts.' Please don't show Flame Meteor spells to lvl 1 Fire Mages that's just bullying and doesn't help growth. It's better to use a Water Laser spell to inspire and encourage a Water Mage. But this is all suggestions and so you could totally mess around if you want to as long as you follow the rules.
'Defensive focus is recommended as overall temperament to avoid permanent loss of biodiversity to surrounding region, though ambient leakage to hasten discovery is appropriate.' Please don't destroy the environment through what I imagine to be forest fires, flooding, tornadoes, and sudden mountain ranges. And don't show off cool spells like a lightshow to get people to come please just have the mana leak naturally draw people.
'0017, Discontinued Indefinitely' Why doesn't this have a series in it's number? Is it because it's not in use or that it was made before series were a thing implying that even 0000-A isn't the first Foundational? Anyways wow you must have to fuck up pretty bad to make a dungeon that even the amoral Weaver's don't want to use.
'Pithe' Wonder how Pithe actually works. Cause we know that at least in the First Era there was a Martial Archangel with that name but we still don't really understand what the Source is like we do Essence or the vague ideas of Concordant and Flow. It seems sort of like Magic Stamina that Warriors use to do their special stuff like Cleave or Blade Whirlwind that some Video Games do. But I'm not sure how you would even run a dungeon with the stuff like I can Essence or Mana (though I have no idea how an Oath dungeon would work too but I have 0 idea how Oath works so that's nothing new) so I still don't really understand Pithe at all. Maybe it's a sort of Qi like thing like in Xianxias?
'Has proven counter-productive to stimulation goals, suppression attempts are either totally routed or so overwhelming as to be equally fruitless' No room for struggle so it's pointless. Says a lot about the Weavers and their goals. Also wow super gimmick dungeon that only deals with curb stomps either to adventures or from adventures. Have to wonder how suppression of Dungeons work since Tower is designed to be insuppressible while other dungeon's like this one seem to have suppression as at least an acceptable outcome if it provides some data or causes some growth.
'Lack of clear goals and use of misdirection instead of direct confrontation results in loss of promising resources for little gain' So an illusion or maze of mirrors type dungeon so that you either get hopelessly loss or just march straight to the exit/Core. Lack of clear goals also implies to me that the dungeon doesn't know what kind person it's aiming for which means it wastes time and money (resources could also mean people with Ethos but I'm not sure).
'Meagre benefits of enhancing mental frameworks could be better inspired by Flow Harvest Vectors' What's a Flow Harvest Vector and how does it enhance mental frameworks? I can sort of see how an illusion dungeon could inspire out of the box thinking especially if the illusions are as malicious as the name implies but yeah that would just be meagre improvements since either the person quickly dies or curb stomps. Is Flow Harvest Vector a Flow dungeon that's literally mind bending? But I don't think we've ever heard mention of Foundationals being called Harvest Vectors and none of our current examples are Flow. Hmm if Ethea are Integration Vectors aka something given to people than what would be a harvest vector? Flow seems to have a Mind aspect to it so something to do with minds and thinking? Philosophy? Cause I would think religion is a more general thing and seems related to Deific.
'Recommend repurposing as an area-denial placement option, but significant redesign will first be necessary. ' Not sure how something that is apparently easily curb stomped could be used for area-denial but maybe that would be part of the redesign. Anyways interesting to know that area-denial is a thing that Weaver's value enough as an option to have Foundationals for.
'Compensation approved for inconvenienced Weavers.' Weavers seem to have a lot of politics going on between this and Manoth's Foundational. I guess even among Gods and Spirits politics and pay remains a thing.
'Infernal Realm Anchor' Anchor. A name that means a lot more now given we learned at least part of the Ethea in our Soul are called Anchors. Does this dungeon partially drag the surrounding area down to the Infernal Realm/Hell?
' 0414-C' Pretty early in the C series and C is pretty early on series wise. At least that puts a sort of timeline on when the Demon treaty since this Foundational must had been made after the Treaty was a thing and going by Iterator and Library of Achievement's series there's been a heck of a lot of Foundationals made after this one.
'Demi-plane Overlay' Seems about what I expected based off the Anchor bit just using Overlay instead of dragging the world closer to Hell. Demi-plane is interesting since that makes it sounds like Hell is less important that the Realm we inhabit.
'Mana' Man Mana has a lot of fun Foundationals. I really hope we get to play with magic soon.
'Discovery chance should be tightly controlled, Layer Magic holds unacceptable chances of Integrators breaching Melange boundaries, endangering both their kin and the plan.' Make sure you don't accidently let in a portal mage since Layer Magic is scary stuff. It can even pull in Integrators (which might or might not be different than Weavers) into the Melange which fucks all kind of stuff. So obviously what we should do is get Layer Magic as soon as possible.
'Lesser Infernals also often exceed secondary treaty conditions' Lesser demons (imps?) like to push the boundaries despite the Treaty being a thing so don't trust the little shits to not cause problems.
' Should only be used to introduce specific innovations at required critical points for ongoing stimulation as the Melange Tapestry continues to mature.' Not something to be used willy nilly. Use it for a specific goal and then depower it. Melange Tapestry is continuing to mature and given that this is probably pretty early in the Foundational time line I wonder what's different now compared to back then. Also wonder what stimulations a demon dungeon provokes that the Weavers desire?
'Arbitrary limiters and complications should be implemented in all associated Spellworks and black-boxed beyond indivine capacity. ' indivine this is the first time it appears but I only really noticed it in Mindstate! Lilly talk. Indivine seems to refer to mortals like us who live in the Melange. So basically this rule means to make magic way more complicated than it needs to be so mortals can't use it to do Layer Magic. But is that for our mortal benefit or for the Weaver's benefit?
'In the event of inappropriate progress, a genocide resolution may be necessary as a forestalling remedy.' If the mortals get uppity and somehow get around that blackboxing than killing them all is a likely solution which sends all kind of warning bells. Maybe I should rethink the 'get Lilly Layer Magic plan' but on the other hand they're probably too busy with the Maw to stop us so we can totally fuck with everything, totally fine.
'Blanket Weaponiser ' Making everything a weapon the Dungeon. Sounds scary .
'7441-C' Late C Series. made after Infernal Realm Anchor but still pretty early overall. Maybe an example of an early generalist being eventually outdone by multiple specialists?
'Generic Inspiring Obstacle' Wow such a generic name but I guess it says all it needs to.
'(No Set Source)' Interesting that this is so generic that it can work with any source. Makes me wonder how it would work if we had it.
'Offcuts and deprioritised weavings can be freely incorporated into this general purpose placement.' Wow so you can literally add random shit into this and it will still work. I wonder if it was a mistake to not take this since it sounds like the perfect Foundational for someone like Lilly who has so many different stuff and will grow her Foundational too. I wonder what an offcut is cause I can assume what a deprioritized weaving is but an offcut? Is it a beta Foundational that was giving up on before it was finished and Blanket can reuse the code?
'Temperament set to match hostility of surroundings, overall effect will be to increase number and potency of imbued over time to stall permanent populating of the local area and allow more premium iterations to be expressed.' Not sure what it means to set as hostile as surroundings? Like if surroundings are a peaceful forest the dungeon should also be peaceful? While if it's deadly desert the dungeon will be extra hostile? Anyways the goal of this dungeon seems to be leveling up more people while also culling the population enough to not become unmanageable. Imbued I think might be the term for those who have reached Milestones since Champion Uplift is about making sure someone can get to the Second Uplift which sounds like the Patron requirement for the Second Milestone. Is the premium iterations meant to be premium integrations aka what I think are Rare Ethos? Or is it that the Weavers think/know that culling a population into a smaller but more elite and powerful group means the next generation is also more powerful?
'Produces novel designs surprisingly often.' Really thinking that this would had been a better base to use as our first Foundational. Oh well guess we'll just have to deal with Tower.
'Place between moderate to large powerbases to encourage healthy conflict.' I guess this is what it meant by how hostile the surroundings are. It's meant to get two nations fight each other over the dungeon with the dungeon itself being more hostile compared to how intense the nation conflict is. Also means that there's probably no peaceful nations since the Weavers above like to stir the pot to create 'healthy' conflict.
'Resource generation limits moderately loosened, construct availability further restricted.' Provides a lot of good stuff but has less constructs. So is this a dungeon that doesn't have many actual enemies cause I thought Constructs were the dungeon enemies? Does that mean that the dungeon focuses on getting humans (or other races I guess) to kill each other in it? But how does that work with being a Blanket Weaponiser?
'Championed Uplift' For turning champions into heroes. Something probably very useful to the powers above.
' 0000-A' This might just be the first Foundational Ethos ever unless as Malice Labyrinth implies that there was some Foundationals made before the series system was put into place. Whatever the case the number and series means that Champion is obviously an important foundational to the Weavers.
'2nd Integration Stage Initializer' So this is used to get people to the 2nd Integration stage which might be the 2nd Milestone thing that's on our sheet. Which I guess the 2nd Milestone is such a big deal that the Weavers designed an entire dungeon for it
'Legend' Really wonder what Legend as a source is about. Here and in the next foundational it seems to be involved in messing with Ethea. Also that Dream has Legend as a secondary Source giving us Super Low Outer Awareness and Super High innate Source of the thing. Is Legend part of the reason for why Lilly can mess with her Ethea so much to pull tricks like forcing Cleaver to evolve? Cause I doubt just anyone can do that though that might be more Boundless Ethos or Bloomling than Legend.
'Tailored placement; should be attuned only to one identified Premium Integrator at a time.' Premium Integrator like the kind Marcus is set to get. I assume Premium Integrator refers to Rare or better Ethea since I doubt the Weavers would call Lesser or Common Ethea Premium. Seems like the Weaver's only really care about Premium Ethos for getting to the 2nd Milestone in which case fair I wouldn't want to spend time and power on making a Champion Service to Man (no offense Mom).
' Provided identity fracture trials do not result in a decohered subject, the sponsored Integration Vector can have its layer-limiters removed' Identity Fracture sounds very scary but I guess if you don't break (or decohered I guess) from that you're tough enough to have your Ethos not limited. Or wait didn't Evie have an option to remove Lilly's Melenge-layer human limiters? Is that the same kind of thing Champion Uplift is meant to help do?
'Weavers are reminded that inducing Melange bleedthrough on a subject who has failed their trials may irretrievably scatter your Divinity, the trials are there by definition to test compatibility before the fact. We have patched most loopholes and if we catch you, you'll be Identity-Wiped at best (all your Vectors will also be moved to the back of the queues when you reincorporate.).' So Weavers have Divinity, can be identity-wiped, and can reincorporate even after an identity wipe. Wonder why they care so much about forcing mortals to the Second Milestone if they're not ready for it since I doubt it's because of moral reasons. Also wonder how important ethos are to weavers if having all your vectors moved to the back of the que is worth mentioning as a punishment after being identity-wiped.
'Current projections before widespread 2nd Stage Initialisations can be reliably applied without prior testing; fourteen Millennia.' Wow apparently it's possible that one day everyone will be able to get to the 2nd milestone without using a dungeon like Champion Uplift which lines up with Mindstate! Lilly saying that indivine will equal their sponsors one day. Though I wonder if that year data is up to date since as I mentioned I think CU is the first Foundational so therefore it might have been 15 millennia since this Foundational was made. Probably still not common even if that's the case otherwise what's the point of the Divine Patron requirement on our sheet.
' :::IMMEDIATE RECALL MANDATORY:::' Interesting that this Foundational is the only one with this warning. Is there only one Champion Uplift and so taking this means none of the Weavers can quickly use it to make a Champion if we took it? Or is there multiple Champion Uplifts but the situation with the Maw is so bad that Weaver's are constantly using CU and have their use booked up so us stealing one would be bad but not critically. Though the second does imply that everything is so fubar that there's multiple Divine Champions around and the World is still doomed without Lilly.
'Library of Achievement' Achievement list. Wonder if we're getting a speedrun achievement since I always hate grinding those for in games. But seriously I wonder what lore and history is hidden inside this Foundational/Dungeon. Honestly while I personally voted Champion at the time of the vote and now think Weaponizer is the best for our build I think Library might had been the Foundational Lilly would had liked the most. Since even without being able to read this would contain so much information and knowledge about heroes and adventure I think she would fall in love with this Foundational.
' 5034-CD' Wow depending on how the organization system works this might be the newest Foundational we know of so new that it might not even be finished yet given that unstable warning at the end.
'Ancient Recaller' lol being called ancient when it's a baby Foundational. But seriously this dungeon probably works by recalling what it was like in the good old days and maybe having the modern day person entering it being inspired by the past.
'(Concordance/Legend)' Interesting combo there. I can understand Legend since this seems to be involved in messing with ethea going by Champion and maybe it has something to do with history? Anyways Concordance definitely has something to with understanding the past since if it can predict the future it can likely do the same for the past. CSI Concordance power when? Anyways back on topic I wonder if the Concordance part let's you actually interact with the heroes and champions of old or at least a facsimile of them cause that would be super cool and maybe horrifying.
'The true purpose of this placement should always remain hidden, intuitive concordant rearrangement would be too difficult to keep contained within mortal hands and would restrict the ability to use finesse instead of brute force in future adjustments' Or maybe I could had forgotten that this literally mentions using Concordance to make it hard to find Whoops. Or wait is it mentioning that Library gives intuitive concordant rearrangement which is too dangerous to allow (note that there is N/A for Intuitive Shaping of Fracture which is under Concordance)? Anyways the Weavers really want to make sure people don't realize what this thing is really for and we probably want to keep it that way since if the Weavers can't use finesse then they have to use the genocide options which we really don't want.
'An on-plane agent is necessary to shepherd otherwise promising candidates that are off track on deadend integration paths toward the temporary placement site' So Weavers can have on-plane agents. Is this things like Champions meaning that 2nd Milestone people have a direct phone to the Gods? Or does it mean people like Mary is for Flower? Wonder how promising candidates get dead-end ethos since they seem to be pretty able at planning that kind of thing. Is it just the element of human choice means there's always the chance the dumb human makes a dumb choice even with big name ethea in front of them? Also it specifically mentions temporary placement site implying that either the other Foundationals are permanent or that the Library only stays in one place for a very short time.
'Realigning fates in more conducive directions shall be occluded from mortal notice by more obvious boons for their suppression attempts. ' Another part of the Concordance effect is probably that realigning fate part which the Gods want to keep hidden by offering real obvious boons while they clear the dungeon so they think 'It's all because of this cool blessing' and not that the dungeon changed them.
'The specific feats granted should be tangentially related to an existing Integration Vector such that the subject assumes it is merely a divergent expansion and does not investigate further. ' Hmm it mentions 'an existing Integration Vector' which implies that the type of people entering the library can have multiple vectors/ethea. Might just be weird wording but it feels off to me. Anyways the feats probably refers to the Fate stuff mentioned above and maybe something to do with artefacts since Artefacts have Feats the same thing as active features. And the gods want to keep the fact they can give this kind of thing a secret and instead make the clearers believe their ethos just leveled up real hard.
' Placement sites should be recalled on decade timescales to prevent examination of such a non-standard methodology.' Weavers are really worried about want mortals can do if given time and ability to study the right things. Also temporary and decade shows that Weaver timescales are a bit off from the perspective of mortals.
' Provided Feats should only be tied to those of us more than half integrated, to prevent application instability. ' What the hell is a half integrated Weaver? We know that the setting doesn't have Demigods since Evie wants to make Lilly the first so it can't be that. Is it a Weaver who perspective is halfway to a mortal's so they know how to not accidently break their minds?
' :::CAUTION: 5034-CD UNSTABLE::: ' Wonder why Library is unstable. Is it because it's pretty new and therefore doesn't have all the kinks worked out? Or does it have to do with the fact that the Maw is kicking everyone's asses means the Weavers who usually run this are too busy causing errors to pile up?
First some questions I have about this. First given that Foundational Ethos is called by Evie as Foundational Integration Vectors but what is it integrated to? Cause Ethos seem to be integrated into the Soul but where is a normal foundation? Is it just physical land because it's a dungeon? That feels a bit too mundane. Maybe they're integrated into Dungeon Cores? But that implies that that the Core comes before the Dungeon which could be possible but would feel weird.
Second where do normal Foundational Ethea get their power from? Cause normal Ethea seem to get their power from the Soul of their user. Do the Weavers have to pay the costs for a dungeon instead of just slapping them down and having them be self-sustaining? If so than that would explain why they apparently only use them in particular circumstances instead of just randomly putting them down and seeing what happens. Got to get the best bang for your buck, yeah?
Speaking of Weavers do they directly run dungeons? Cause it seems like many of the descriptions of the ethea that they're directly managed with user restrictions and not automatous.
Finally there's the question of what the numbers-letters mean. I assume it means order of creation with lower numbers referring to earlier creations and the letter(s) referring to category order with A being earliest and Z being the latest. But it could easily be a filing system with no regard to date or whatever.
There's also the question about what happens if a category reaches 9999-Z the max. Is the next one 0000-AA, 0001-AA, 0000-2A, ect? Cause there's very different systems for how it would work out and I can't tell based off the data we have.
Rapid Iterator our foe. Judging by how we could had picked this despite RI still being at large I think that means at least some Foundational Ethea have multiple copies which is an important assumption for a point I'll have on Champion.
It's honestly a bit weird that this is called Rapid Iterator since the description doesn't mention the foundational being rapid nor doing many iterations. Like I guess the mentions of how you need to balance every thing implies that you are making constant changes to get the best result but still feels like it could have described how it works better rather just having to assume based off the name. Like a theme of rapidly creating different iterations of something feels like it would easily be mentioned in the description.
Iterators number with its 2A seems like it's a rather newish Foundational Ethos though that might be a very wrong assumption. But it's certainly at least one that isn't near the first assuming the number is referring to creation order.
'Efficient Tension Sustainment' so the efficient in this title/designation implies that cost is a factor for Foundationals. Also it seems like tension sustainment is such a priority to the Weavers that having an efficient way of doing it is valued or noteworthy.
'Dominant Occupants' hmm it doesn't just say humans so is there other potential 'Dominants' besides humans that a Foundational could be sent against or is it just Weavers using big words because they're assholes? Basically I'm wondering if there's other races like elves and dwarfs that the Ethos Weavers are also messing with.
'Typical imbued predators' so animals can naturally be buffed up by powers. Makes me wonder if things like the Alpha Wolves and the Space Stags are actually common in some areas just without the hivemind controlling them.
'Recommend limits on level of sentience allowed in constructions unless local entities are sufficient to resist oversaturation.' basically don't make the dungeon monsters too smart unless you're sure there's enough adventures or hunters to kill them all anyways even if you have Goblins and Kobolds wiping entire parties with traps. Implies that Foundationals can flat out make sentient creatures well constructs since dungeons can also make something else called Entities which is different than Constructs.
'Typical opening parameter should be to evenly contest integrator forces with upscaled facsimiles of existing wildlife and coordinate their movements,' basically what we saw in our battle the Alphas were upgraded facsimiles of wolves that coordinated together. Though our situation was different since the Rapid Iterator seemed to taken control of actual wolves instead of making constructs that look like them and it less coordinated their movements than directly puppet them like a hivemind since I doubt most Rapid Iterator dungeons are allowed to pull that ambush trick it tried.
'then tweak to keep stress levels within the optimal zone of development.' interesting this mentions stress and not Gravitas. Maybe Stress produces Gravitas as a byproduct or maybe there's a deeper connection to Ethea and Stress? Cause Champion does mention Identity Shattering Trials as being needed to get the 2nd Stage safely. So maybe the old 'with great stress comes great powers' adage is true here?
'Advise life-analogous constructions be rendered infertile to avoid non-productive exponential threats.' So breeding into an exponential is a possibility and not hard coded to not happen. That's not at all scary and worrying. Thankfully whoever or whatever is in charge of the local Rapid Iterator seems impatient for one reason or another since while we dealt with a lot of wolves we didn't get buried under an ocean of them. Maybe RI can only cheat breeding speed so much so you can't just breed an army of of super bears in a few weeks? Maybe it's a resource issue since I doubt the Foundational has infinite power/Essence to throw around to run an infinite army.
'Recommend limits on quantity of streamlining boons so as to not trivialize related Vector incentives" Hmm what the hell does this mean? Can Dungeons give power ups to people as rewards for clearing them and this warning means to not go too trigger happy with them because it disincentivize Ethos growth? If so then those boons must be potent shit if they can make improving your ethos look like small potatoes then again I might be using Lilly's growth as a baseline which is unfair.
Or maybe it means 'streamlining boons' to mean Gravitas and so means to not hand too much experience too fast so people have an actual chance to train their Ethos? Cause as good as it would be to have tier 10 Punch Evil if you have 1/10 Grasp you'll probably use the power completely wrong. But if this is true than that means Gravitas itself is a shortcut that can be handed out which feels wrong. Like yeah once you past the first milestone you need to have Grasp higher than power tier so you can't instantly make a noob into a demigod by injecting Gravitas but still I feel Gravitas is more than just a short cut steroid.
Sly equalizing not equalising
'Towering Edifice to Heaven' A tower to heaven. Pretty bare bones and could refer to the dungeon literally taking the form of a giant tower or maybe a reference to a Babel type myth. Given that the tower seems to arbitrarily become harder the higher you go I wonder if you actually reach the top (if that's even possible) if you would reach Heaven or maybe, to put it better, Ascend to a higher being since I imagine to be able to reach the top you would have to be super swole that even if you started as a mortal you might not end as one.
'7958-A Series' why does this one mention series but none of the others? Anyways it seems like this ethos came late in the A series but given that A is the first letter of the alphabet it's probably still pretty early overall.
'Recommend use only to rebalance conflict trending too far toward an unscheduled genocide resolution; re-establish status quo through new equalising variables.' Makes me wonder what kind of situation prompted making this Foundational since as many others have noted it seems like a weird way to stop a genocide. Anyways unscheduled genocide is a big scary phrase and I'm not sure exactly how introducing new variables via Tower would change that despite us having the ethos. Maybe artefacts are big deals so much that easy access to them can lead to an Arthur with Excalibur situation? Probably close to the truth given the mention of how artefacts can lead to synergy cascade.
'Pseudo-matter imposition constraints relaxed, though care should be taken not to generate synergy cascades and unintentionally disrupt an otherwise stabilized situation' This implies that all Foundationals use pseudo-matter imposition just that there's hard limits with Tower having more relaxed limits. I believe we figured this to be because Tower makes a lot of Artefacts but I like the idea that it's literally because it needs so much pseudo-matter to make the giant tower. Anyways I wonder how this pseudo-matter works. I've already speculated that Mindset! Lilly used Gravitas and Oaken Core to make our current artefact. So is Gravitas easily turned into pseudo-matter or related to it? Or does it have to do with Tower's Source being Deific which we suspect has to deal with powers of a different layer which could probably also be used for pseudo-matter
'Strength of initial ranging entities should be severely constrained so as to not eliminate existing inhabitants; the goal is redistribution not eradication' This and 'the stabilized situation' mention above make it clear that while the Weavers or whatever in charge of Foundationals seem to not care for causing human deaths if it results in some data and growth they at least want to make sure it isn't complete chaos when they can help it. Though judging by our conflict with Rapid Iterator it seems Maw has taken/corrupted some of the Foundationals and causing Chaos with them.
'Toleration of Domestication has not been granted for this iteration,' Wonder why Tower in particular is banned from having monster be made into pets/familiars/summons/however domestication works in this setting . Maybe the Powers that Be think that pets would make the nation too powerful in the long term? Since if they can get a breed of dragons or whatever than even after Tower leaves they'll have greatly altered the balance forever? But wouldn't Artefacts be the same? Though I guess Artefacts are inherently less able to expand that tamed monster breeding. Anyways I hope this limit doesn't carry over to future Foundational Ethea we get cause I want monster pets.
'upscale investment arbitrarily to resist any long term group suppression.' Basically you can't conquer the Tower since it can arbitrarily get harder and harder to stop people from suppressing it
Sly preferable not preferrable
'Reinterpretation Seed' What seed is being reinterpreted in this? The Seed of Life?
'566-B' Why isn't there a 0 in front of the 566? Cause it seems the system works off of having 4 digits even if that digit is 0. Honestly the numbers feel like they're kind of random in our they're set up like there's multiple different organizing systems instead of one unifying system which is annoying. But anyways assuming this means B series 566 than this is actually a pretty early Foundational even if after the A series, Which implies that Manoth and her Inverted Ethos project have been around for a while despite still being in beta test.
'Manoth Placement Approval Only ' Does this mean only Manoth can approve placing this Foundational or that Manoth needs others approval to place this? Probably the second one since it seems like Manoth would just throw this and other Inverted Ethea like candy if she could.
' (Oath) {Inverted} ' Still don't really understand what Inverted Ethea really are besides edgy and based off being hurt. I really wish we knew what Inverted meant since all it makes me think is opposite power after going through a traumatic break but how does that work for a dungeon? Interesting that of the two canon Inverted that we know the Source of that they're both Oath and in the same update though not sure if that's coincidence or not. Wonder how Oath factors into this since as I will mention below this feels more like an anti-essence thing than Oath.
'{{Oh my. What have you done Ev'aclliál? Hmm… Here, pick mine.}} ' Darker Orange but who cares it's close enough for you to understand that this is Manoth. So interesting that she speaks to us (well Evie but she's literally attached to our Soul so it totally counts) since that means that she (for some reason Manoth gives me female vibes) noticed us and Evie messing around with Foundationals. Which means other higher entities probably did as well if maybe not having Evie's Discord account to message her when they noticed. Not sure if Manoth is really on our side and giving us a good Foundational ethos, trying to experiment with her stuff even now, or both cause she seems to have very peculiar ideas about ethea and trauma. Anyways hopefully we didn't piss her off for refusing her offer.
' Case by Case implementation only. ' No Manoth you can't just drop a Demon Lord Castle here because we let you drop one in a desert the previous Era aka precedent doesn't matter you still need actual permission and not automatic approval. Or at least I assume that's what this means.
'Manoth has agreed to not disrupt the overall plan, but is permitted minor experimentation in sidelined regions. Placement preferrable in static environmental conditions not suitable for more subtle progression stimulation. Regions with low biodiversity would be a pragmatic choice.'
Read we managed to get her to not screw everything over but can't stop her messing about and disrupting minor areas so we give her regions we don't really care about and whose inevitable loss won't hurt us in the long term. Using the dungeon as bludgeon on areas that won't change even if we try and shadow run changes is the preferred use and to minimize deaths put in place where there's not a lot living in the first place.
'Artefact generation is forbidden due to risk of regionally disruptive synergies being too great; specific appeals tentatively allowed.' Artefacts could potentially be too OP and game breaking so they're not allowed unless Manoth convinces someone for specific artefacts. Really makes me wonder how OP artefacts get since all the synergy talk makes me think that the right artefact in the hands of the right person with the right ethos could singlehandedly change the world. I guess that's what the Vector Interactions part on our Chasis notes on the spreadsheet refers to. Note to self try and bullshit using Melded Carapace with Primordial Chassis since it's totally armor right
?'Exponential Threat Creation is henceforth explicitly restricted. ' Read: Manoth found a loophole before and Seed got really out of hand so we need to make double sure she can't create a World Disaster with the dungeon in the ass end of nowhere.
Sly kilometers not kilometres
'Malleable Elemental Pioneer' So Malleable to even Weavers and Pioneer. Seems like a messing around toolkit to experiment with the elements in whatever way you want to. Want to make a Super Mario lava world platformer? This is you Ethos. Want to make a Legend of Zelda Water Temple puzzle that too works with this. Basically I imagine this to be a sort of Minecraft Foundational where it has a lot of tools that you could potentially make anything if having to do a lot of work arounds and mods.
' 1000-A' Pretty early Foundational to be in the A series and at a mere one thousand.
''No Focal Concept Selected' So the purpose description name is called Focal Concept. Makes sense. Wonder why this one doesn't have one? Because it's a bunch of tools that you could make anything so there's no focal concept that it's used for unlike Rapid Iterator being an efficient threat creator?
'Density should never drop below a single instance per 20000 square kilometres in identified high-magic regions' What fuck does this mean? Like I'm just having trouble trying to understand. Is it saying you can't have a room over 20km^2 or that is 20km^2 the minimum size. Probably closer to the former than the later though I'm not sure if instance is dungeon rooms. Is instance the physical domain of the dungeon? Cause that may make more sense you don't want your dungeon being too big/too small especially since this seems like a messing around dungeon than something involving the Plan(tm).
'Sideline regions may diverge upward to one per 200000.' You can make your element amusement park 10 times bigger if it's in an area we don't give a shit about. Wonder if a region having high-magic is the difference to the Weavers between an important area and a sidelined one. Cause if it's not than what is the rule for a high-magic sidelined area? Is it 20km^2 or 200km^2?
'Recommend progression not be left in omni-state on placement, but customized to tangentially match nearby premium Integrators.' Hmm what's an omni-state? A blank canvas mode where the dungeon is all elements at once or equal amounts of each? And it's not recommended to do that and instead base it off of close by premium integrators (Rare or better Ethea?)? So if you have a water bender nearby make a water dungeon and a fire one for a flame guy? Makes me wonder what Magical elements this world has since this is all under Mana and so probably doesn't mess with Essence, Flow or Concordance stuff.
'Spellworks should likewise be situated within a reasonable and reachable scope for suppression attempts.' Please don't show Flame Meteor spells to lvl 1 Fire Mages that's just bullying and doesn't help growth. It's better to use a Water Laser spell to inspire and encourage a Water Mage. But this is all suggestions and so you could totally mess around if you want to as long as you follow the rules.
'Defensive focus is recommended as overall temperament to avoid permanent loss of biodiversity to surrounding region, though ambient leakage to hasten discovery is appropriate.' Please don't destroy the environment through what I imagine to be forest fires, flooding, tornadoes, and sudden mountain ranges. And don't show off cool spells like a lightshow to get people to come please just have the mana leak naturally draw people.
'Malice Labyrinth' It's amazing this name is more evil than some of Manoth's inverted Ethea. But I guess "I want to hurt you Dungeon' is kind of hard to top in the evil list.
'0017, Discontinued Indefinitely' Why doesn't this have a series in it's number? Is it because it's not in use or that it was made before series were a thing implying that even 0000-A isn't the first Foundational? Anyways wow you must have to fuck up pretty bad to make a dungeon that even the amoral Weaver's don't want to use.
'Pithe' Wonder how Pithe actually works. Cause we know that at least in the First Era there was a Martial Archangel with that name but we still don't really understand what the Source is like we do Essence or the vague ideas of Concordant and Flow. It seems sort of like Magic Stamina that Warriors use to do their special stuff like Cleave or Blade Whirlwind that some Video Games do. But I'm not sure how you would even run a dungeon with the stuff like I can Essence or Mana (though I have no idea how an Oath dungeon would work too but I have 0 idea how Oath works so that's nothing new) so I still don't really understand Pithe at all. Maybe it's a sort of Qi like thing like in Xianxias?
'Has proven counter-productive to stimulation goals, suppression attempts are either totally routed or so overwhelming as to be equally fruitless' No room for struggle so it's pointless. Says a lot about the Weavers and their goals. Also wow super gimmick dungeon that only deals with curb stomps either to adventures or from adventures. Have to wonder how suppression of Dungeons work since Tower is designed to be insuppressible while other dungeon's like this one seem to have suppression as at least an acceptable outcome if it provides some data or causes some growth.
'Lack of clear goals and use of misdirection instead of direct confrontation results in loss of promising resources for little gain' So an illusion or maze of mirrors type dungeon so that you either get hopelessly loss or just march straight to the exit/Core. Lack of clear goals also implies to me that the dungeon doesn't know what kind person it's aiming for which means it wastes time and money (resources could also mean people with Ethos but I'm not sure).
'Meagre benefits of enhancing mental frameworks could be better inspired by Flow Harvest Vectors' What's a Flow Harvest Vector and how does it enhance mental frameworks? I can sort of see how an illusion dungeon could inspire out of the box thinking especially if the illusions are as malicious as the name implies but yeah that would just be meagre improvements since either the person quickly dies or curb stomps. Is Flow Harvest Vector a Flow dungeon that's literally mind bending? But I don't think we've ever heard mention of Foundationals being called Harvest Vectors and none of our current examples are Flow. Hmm if Ethea are Integration Vectors aka something given to people than what would be a harvest vector? Flow seems to have a Mind aspect to it so something to do with minds and thinking? Philosophy? Cause I would think religion is a more general thing and seems related to Deific.
'Recommend repurposing as an area-denial placement option, but significant redesign will first be necessary. ' Not sure how something that is apparently easily curb stomped could be used for area-denial but maybe that would be part of the redesign. Anyways interesting to know that area-denial is a thing that Weaver's value enough as an option to have Foundationals for.
'Compensation approved for inconvenienced Weavers.' Weavers seem to have a lot of politics going on between this and Manoth's Foundational. I guess even among Gods and Spirits politics and pay remains a thing.
'Infernal Realm Anchor' Anchor. A name that means a lot more now given we learned at least part of the Ethea in our Soul are called Anchors. Does this dungeon partially drag the surrounding area down to the Infernal Realm/Hell?
' 0414-C' Pretty early in the C series and C is pretty early on series wise. At least that puts a sort of timeline on when the Demon treaty since this Foundational must had been made after the Treaty was a thing and going by Iterator and Library of Achievement's series there's been a heck of a lot of Foundationals made after this one.
'Demi-plane Overlay' Seems about what I expected based off the Anchor bit just using Overlay instead of dragging the world closer to Hell. Demi-plane is interesting since that makes it sounds like Hell is less important that the Realm we inhabit.
'Mana' Man Mana has a lot of fun Foundationals. I really hope we get to play with magic soon.
'Discovery chance should be tightly controlled, Layer Magic holds unacceptable chances of Integrators breaching Melange boundaries, endangering both their kin and the plan.' Make sure you don't accidently let in a portal mage since Layer Magic is scary stuff. It can even pull in Integrators (which might or might not be different than Weavers) into the Melange which fucks all kind of stuff. So obviously what we should do is get Layer Magic as soon as possible.
'Lesser Infernals also often exceed secondary treaty conditions' Lesser demons (imps?) like to push the boundaries despite the Treaty being a thing so don't trust the little shits to not cause problems.
' Should only be used to introduce specific innovations at required critical points for ongoing stimulation as the Melange Tapestry continues to mature.' Not something to be used willy nilly. Use it for a specific goal and then depower it. Melange Tapestry is continuing to mature and given that this is probably pretty early in the Foundational time line I wonder what's different now compared to back then. Also wonder what stimulations a demon dungeon provokes that the Weavers desire?
'Arbitrary limiters and complications should be implemented in all associated Spellworks and black-boxed beyond indivine capacity. ' indivine this is the first time it appears but I only really noticed it in Mindstate! Lilly talk. Indivine seems to refer to mortals like us who live in the Melange. So basically this rule means to make magic way more complicated than it needs to be so mortals can't use it to do Layer Magic. But is that for our mortal benefit or for the Weaver's benefit?
'In the event of inappropriate progress, a genocide resolution may be necessary as a forestalling remedy.' If the mortals get uppity and somehow get around that blackboxing than killing them all is a likely solution which sends all kind of warning bells. Maybe I should rethink the 'get Lilly Layer Magic plan' but on the other hand they're probably too busy with the Maw to stop us so we can totally fuck with everything, totally fine.
Sly deprioritized not deprioritised
'Blanket Weaponiser ' Making everything a weapon the Dungeon. Sounds scary .
'7441-C' Late C Series. made after Infernal Realm Anchor but still pretty early overall. Maybe an example of an early generalist being eventually outdone by multiple specialists?
'Generic Inspiring Obstacle' Wow such a generic name but I guess it says all it needs to.
'(No Set Source)' Interesting that this is so generic that it can work with any source. Makes me wonder how it would work if we had it.
'Offcuts and deprioritised weavings can be freely incorporated into this general purpose placement.' Wow so you can literally add random shit into this and it will still work. I wonder if it was a mistake to not take this since it sounds like the perfect Foundational for someone like Lilly who has so many different stuff and will grow her Foundational too. I wonder what an offcut is cause I can assume what a deprioritized weaving is but an offcut? Is it a beta Foundational that was giving up on before it was finished and Blanket can reuse the code?
'Temperament set to match hostility of surroundings, overall effect will be to increase number and potency of imbued over time to stall permanent populating of the local area and allow more premium iterations to be expressed.' Not sure what it means to set as hostile as surroundings? Like if surroundings are a peaceful forest the dungeon should also be peaceful? While if it's deadly desert the dungeon will be extra hostile? Anyways the goal of this dungeon seems to be leveling up more people while also culling the population enough to not become unmanageable. Imbued I think might be the term for those who have reached Milestones since Champion Uplift is about making sure someone can get to the Second Uplift which sounds like the Patron requirement for the Second Milestone. Is the premium iterations meant to be premium integrations aka what I think are Rare Ethos? Or is it that the Weavers think/know that culling a population into a smaller but more elite and powerful group means the next generation is also more powerful?
'Produces novel designs surprisingly often.' Really thinking that this would had been a better base to use as our first Foundational. Oh well guess we'll just have to deal with Tower.
'Place between moderate to large powerbases to encourage healthy conflict.' I guess this is what it meant by how hostile the surroundings are. It's meant to get two nations fight each other over the dungeon with the dungeon itself being more hostile compared to how intense the nation conflict is. Also means that there's probably no peaceful nations since the Weavers above like to stir the pot to create 'healthy' conflict.
'Resource generation limits moderately loosened, construct availability further restricted.' Provides a lot of good stuff but has less constructs. So is this a dungeon that doesn't have many actual enemies cause I thought Constructs were the dungeon enemies? Does that mean that the dungeon focuses on getting humans (or other races I guess) to kill each other in it? But how does that work with being a Blanket Weaponiser?
sly Initializations not Inittialisations
'Championed Uplift' For turning champions into heroes. Something probably very useful to the powers above.
' 0000-A' This might just be the first Foundational Ethos ever unless as Malice Labyrinth implies that there was some Foundationals made before the series system was put into place. Whatever the case the number and series means that Champion is obviously an important foundational to the Weavers.
'2nd Integration Stage Initializer' So this is used to get people to the 2nd Integration stage which might be the 2nd Milestone thing that's on our sheet. Which I guess the 2nd Milestone is such a big deal that the Weavers designed an entire dungeon for it
'Legend' Really wonder what Legend as a source is about. Here and in the next foundational it seems to be involved in messing with Ethea. Also that Dream has Legend as a secondary Source giving us Super Low Outer Awareness and Super High innate Source of the thing. Is Legend part of the reason for why Lilly can mess with her Ethea so much to pull tricks like forcing Cleaver to evolve? Cause I doubt just anyone can do that though that might be more Boundless Ethos or Bloomling than Legend.
'Tailored placement; should be attuned only to one identified Premium Integrator at a time.' Premium Integrator like the kind Marcus is set to get. I assume Premium Integrator refers to Rare or better Ethea since I doubt the Weavers would call Lesser or Common Ethea Premium. Seems like the Weaver's only really care about Premium Ethos for getting to the 2nd Milestone in which case fair I wouldn't want to spend time and power on making a Champion Service to Man (no offense Mom).
' Provided identity fracture trials do not result in a decohered subject, the sponsored Integration Vector can have its layer-limiters removed' Identity Fracture sounds very scary but I guess if you don't break (or decohered I guess) from that you're tough enough to have your Ethos not limited. Or wait didn't Evie have an option to remove Lilly's Melenge-layer human limiters? Is that the same kind of thing Champion Uplift is meant to help do?
'Weavers are reminded that inducing Melange bleedthrough on a subject who has failed their trials may irretrievably scatter your Divinity, the trials are there by definition to test compatibility before the fact. We have patched most loopholes and if we catch you, you'll be Identity-Wiped at best (all your Vectors will also be moved to the back of the queues when you reincorporate.).' So Weavers have Divinity, can be identity-wiped, and can reincorporate even after an identity wipe. Wonder why they care so much about forcing mortals to the Second Milestone if they're not ready for it since I doubt it's because of moral reasons. Also wonder how important ethos are to weavers if having all your vectors moved to the back of the que is worth mentioning as a punishment after being identity-wiped.
'Current projections before widespread 2nd Stage Initialisations can be reliably applied without prior testing; fourteen Millennia.' Wow apparently it's possible that one day everyone will be able to get to the 2nd milestone without using a dungeon like Champion Uplift which lines up with Mindstate! Lilly saying that indivine will equal their sponsors one day. Though I wonder if that year data is up to date since as I mentioned I think CU is the first Foundational so therefore it might have been 15 millennia since this Foundational was made. Probably still not common even if that's the case otherwise what's the point of the Divine Patron requirement on our sheet.
' :::IMMEDIATE RECALL MANDATORY:::' Interesting that this Foundational is the only one with this warning. Is there only one Champion Uplift and so taking this means none of the Weavers can quickly use it to make a Champion if we took it? Or is there multiple Champion Uplifts but the situation with the Maw is so bad that Weaver's are constantly using CU and have their use booked up so us stealing one would be bad but not critically. Though the second does imply that everything is so fubar that there's multiple Divine Champions around and the World is still doomed without Lilly.
Sly dead-end not deadend
'Library of Achievement' Achievement list. Wonder if we're getting a speedrun achievement since I always hate grinding those for in games. But seriously I wonder what lore and history is hidden inside this Foundational/Dungeon. Honestly while I personally voted Champion at the time of the vote and now think Weaponizer is the best for our build I think Library might had been the Foundational Lilly would had liked the most. Since even without being able to read this would contain so much information and knowledge about heroes and adventure I think she would fall in love with this Foundational.
' 5034-CD' Wow depending on how the organization system works this might be the newest Foundational we know of so new that it might not even be finished yet given that unstable warning at the end.
'Ancient Recaller' lol being called ancient when it's a baby Foundational. But seriously this dungeon probably works by recalling what it was like in the good old days and maybe having the modern day person entering it being inspired by the past.
'(Concordance/Legend)' Interesting combo there. I can understand Legend since this seems to be involved in messing with ethea going by Champion and maybe it has something to do with history? Anyways Concordance definitely has something to with understanding the past since if it can predict the future it can likely do the same for the past. CSI Concordance power when? Anyways back on topic I wonder if the Concordance part let's you actually interact with the heroes and champions of old or at least a facsimile of them cause that would be super cool and maybe horrifying.
'The true purpose of this placement should always remain hidden, intuitive concordant rearrangement would be too difficult to keep contained within mortal hands and would restrict the ability to use finesse instead of brute force in future adjustments' Or maybe I could had forgotten that this literally mentions using Concordance to make it hard to find Whoops. Or wait is it mentioning that Library gives intuitive concordant rearrangement which is too dangerous to allow (note that there is N/A for Intuitive Shaping of Fracture which is under Concordance)? Anyways the Weavers really want to make sure people don't realize what this thing is really for and we probably want to keep it that way since if the Weavers can't use finesse then they have to use the genocide options which we really don't want.
'An on-plane agent is necessary to shepherd otherwise promising candidates that are off track on deadend integration paths toward the temporary placement site' So Weavers can have on-plane agents. Is this things like Champions meaning that 2nd Milestone people have a direct phone to the Gods? Or does it mean people like Mary is for Flower? Wonder how promising candidates get dead-end ethos since they seem to be pretty able at planning that kind of thing. Is it just the element of human choice means there's always the chance the dumb human makes a dumb choice even with big name ethea in front of them? Also it specifically mentions temporary placement site implying that either the other Foundationals are permanent or that the Library only stays in one place for a very short time.
'Realigning fates in more conducive directions shall be occluded from mortal notice by more obvious boons for their suppression attempts. ' Another part of the Concordance effect is probably that realigning fate part which the Gods want to keep hidden by offering real obvious boons while they clear the dungeon so they think 'It's all because of this cool blessing' and not that the dungeon changed them.
'The specific feats granted should be tangentially related to an existing Integration Vector such that the subject assumes it is merely a divergent expansion and does not investigate further. ' Hmm it mentions 'an existing Integration Vector' which implies that the type of people entering the library can have multiple vectors/ethea. Might just be weird wording but it feels off to me. Anyways the feats probably refers to the Fate stuff mentioned above and maybe something to do with artefacts since Artefacts have Feats the same thing as active features. And the gods want to keep the fact they can give this kind of thing a secret and instead make the clearers believe their ethos just leveled up real hard.
' Placement sites should be recalled on decade timescales to prevent examination of such a non-standard methodology.' Weavers are really worried about want mortals can do if given time and ability to study the right things. Also temporary and decade shows that Weaver timescales are a bit off from the perspective of mortals.
' Provided Feats should only be tied to those of us more than half integrated, to prevent application instability. ' What the hell is a half integrated Weaver? We know that the setting doesn't have Demigods since Evie wants to make Lilly the first so it can't be that. Is it a Weaver who perspective is halfway to a mortal's so they know how to not accidently break their minds?
' :::CAUTION: 5034-CD UNSTABLE::: ' Wonder why Library is unstable. Is it because it's pretty new and therefore doesn't have all the kinks worked out? Or does it have to do with the fact that the Maw is kicking everyone's asses means the Weavers who usually run this are too busy causing errors to pile up?