It said "no distant futures", which means the battle will take place in the not-so-distant future. I think this is at least moderately strong evidence that Waters has reliable "Find People" ethos at his disposal.

Gaining an army later would be better than now... if it were possible. Right now, while we're still unambiguously the wronged party, while both our incredible assistance and Waters' unpleasant methods are still in recent memory among the guard, may be our only chance.

If we start by "evading them first", there will likely be nothing to come back to. Battle will, in the not-so-distant future, be forced, and we will have only a small party on our side.

Dude, this is not a threat we can mobilize a force against on short notice.

Because whoops? He himself knows that the Watch has a non zero chance of siding against us! Do you really think the force he brought is all he can muster? That we can out-scale him before he hits us pre-emptively?
 
Do you think we can outscale him with a party of 5 members? Because that is the alternative that you propose, by slinking off until "later".

Getting an army at our back now (while we still have the momentum to do so) is our best chance. Perhaps not an ideal chance, but the best, given that battle will, in the not-so-distant future, be forced.
 
Distant future can be anywhere from months to decades. Doing it now may be suicide. It also may not be but that is not something I'm willing to bank on.
 
Distant future is within 5.5 years, as that is the planned duration of the quest. Are we likely to have another chance to gain 200 people's loyalty in 5.5 years + Captain Martin's sure loyalty to the end? This may literally have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, gained through significant risk.

Once our profile is too high, we will no longer be seen as a wronged party, but rather as an outlaw to be hunted. ("Lilly Silas? She had a good start, but too bad about her inverted ethos.") Our efforts to protect the townspeople will fade into memory.

People will forget, or rationalize, Lord Waters' behavior soon enough--assuming he doesn't simply force them to swear an ethos-backed oath at swordpoint.
 
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...Anyway, I was looking at the spreadsheet earlier, and the "Lilly doesn't know what Brave Blood is really supposed to do" thing left me thinking...And what I think I think is that Brave Blood is or is related to the Power of Heart. Like, on a conceptual level. That said, this thought originated from a very tired me and is thus granted an extremely low confidence interval, in addition to uh, being kind of poorly explained. Basically, the thought was "what thematic connection can I make between True Song and everything else?" and "the strength-boosting powers hit on your heartbeat, and the True Song is about speaking your heart" came up. I could argue that Melded Carapace is "drawing an attack to the heart of your defenses", in theory. Maybe I'll find more to it. Maybe I'm totally off base. But I wanted to put this out there.

I'd say its both power of the heart like metaphorically and like very heart related like the organ. Basically both physically and metaphysically the power of the heart.
 
We have a soldier here who specializes in training the militia and us. Boosts here.
Forest Within the Dream is a massive power multiplier, not to mention how our everything plays into it.
And we have Rapid Iterator, a dungeon to forge our minions and ourselves with.
[Rapid Iterator | 2873-2A, Efficient Tension Sustainment] (Foundational): (Essence)
Ideal placement would be regions wherein dominant occupants are no more than an order of magnitude beyond typical imbued predators. Recommend limits on level of sentience allowed in constructions unless local entities are sufficient to resist oversaturation. Typical opening parameter should be to evenly contest integrator forces with upscaled facsimiles of existing wildlife and coordinate their movements, then tweak to keep stress levels within the optimal zone of development. Advise life-analogous constructions be rendered infertile to avoid non-productive exponential threats. Recommend limits on quantity of streamlining boons so as to not trivialize related Vector incentives. :::GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY:::
PS, anyone understand what this means in regards to boons? Like what rewards can we expect?
 
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Distant future is within 5.5 years, as that is the planned duration of the quest. Are we likely to have another chance to gain 200 people's loyalty in 5.5 years + Captain Martin's sure loyalty to the end? This may literally have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, gained through significant risk.

Once our profile is too high, we will no longer be seen as a wronged party, but rather as an outlaw to be hunted. ("Lilly Silas? She had a good start, but too bad about her inverted ethos.") Our efforts to protect the townspeople will fade into memory.

People will forget, or rationalize, Lord Waters' behavior soon enough--assuming he doesn't simply force them to swear an ethos-backed oath at swordpoint.

...

So, what are you trying to say here?

Because your second paragraph makes no god damn sense whatsoever. You're saying like people would be sympathetic to us if we attacked now but if we attack later we'll just be an outlaw. But given how awful this society seems to be it looks more like us moving now will result in the entire kingdom coming down on our head because we definitely proved ourselves to be an exponential threat that can and does subvert local assets with ease and has to be taken down with overwhelming force at any price.

You're saying "Let's just raise an army now we will never have another chance!" is... Super, super, super fucking premature. It's not even a good idea because it's trying to compete with him in his strongest field with an area we have no special talent in yet!
 
We have a soldier here who specializes in training.
Forest Within the Dream is a massive power multiplier, not to mention how our everything plays into it.
And we have Rapid Iterator, a dungeon to forge our minions and ourselves with.

PS, anyone understand what this means in regards to boons? Like what rewards can we expect?

No clue but likely fairly decent rewards. Fake-Lily mentioned being able to quickly consume a deific fragments for a boon, though she could do more with it slowly.

My suspicion is decent powerups, cool loot, etc etc. Nothing as good as what evie gave us from interlude 1.2 though
 
...Anyway, I was looking at the spreadsheet earlier, and the "Lilly doesn't know what Brave Blood is really supposed to do" thing left me thinking...And what I think I think is that Brave Blood is or is related to the Power of Heart. Like, on a conceptual level.
I think it's more like [Brave Blood] is basically D&D's Bard class as an Ethos.

Distant future is within 5.5 years, since that is the planned duration of the quest. Are we likely to have another chance to gain 200 people's loyalty in 5.5 years? This may literally have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, gained through significant risk.
Lilly doesn't need people to have an army (or at least future Lilly won't), she could go around into the forests, mountains, and plains gathering animals to her collective. Hell, she might even be able to turn the trees into Ents. There's also [Rapid Iterator], Lilly might be able to take it as her own, that's something Dungeons do right, eat other Dungeons? If she's able to then she has a way to give her wildlife army powers.
 
In the time that we spend on the run, we will go from "hero of the guard" into "outlaw with an inverted ethos". Martin will have second and third thoughts as to our commitment. In short, our chance to recruit the guard will be gone.

If you think we have a bad chance of facing Waters with an army at our back, we will have an even worse chance with a party of 5 people. Most of the power of {Collective Communion} will have been thrown away. Intentionally.

Given that battle will be forced in the not-so-distant future, this leaves us no other choice but to try to gain the army now. And yes, sympathy to us as the wronged party, anger against Lord Waters for his recent-in-memory actions would help significantly in this--and fade away after however many months of hiding.

Lilly doesn't need people to have an army (or at least future Lilly won't), she could go around into the forests, mountains, and plains gathering animals to her collective. Hell, she might even be able to turn the trees into Ents.
In addition to being speculative, animals don't have ethos.
 
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I think it's more like [Brave Blood] is basically D&D's Bard class as an Ethos.


Lilly doesn't need people to have an army (or at least future Lilly won't), she could go around into the forests, mountains, and plains gathering animals to her collective. Hell, she might even be able to turn the trees into Ents. There's also [Rapid Iterator], Lilly might be able to take it as her own, that's something Dungeons do right, eat other Dungeons? If she's able to then she has a way to give her wildlife army powers.

[Brave Blood] was doing physical enhancement long before it picked up anything about charisma and communication, so...

It does seem to be built around passion in a strong sense, and the connection with the Heart seems clear. It somehow amplifies this up to memetic levels, but it stats with "You're stronger on the down-beat of your heartbeat", and even the sensory power is a pulse, a heartbeat that echoes like sonar.

{True Song} looks like it's more about connecting with and uplifting the 'Hearts' of others. Sound has always been said to resonate with the heart (The whole eight-count beat of the entire rock genre being that way because it's the most stimulating to the human heart for instance), hence it uses the vector of song for it?
 
In the time that we spend on the run, we will go from "hero of the guard" into "outlaw with an inverted ethos". Martin will have second and third thoughts as to our commitment. In short, our chance to recruit the guard will be gone.

If we have a bad chance of facing Waters with an army at our back, we have an even worse chance with a party of 5 people. Most of the power of {Collective Communion} will have been thrown away. Intentionally.

Given that battle will be forced in the not-so-distant future, this leaves us no other choice but to try to gain the army now. And yes, sympathy to us as the wronged party, anger against Lord Waters for his recent-in-memory actions would help significantly in this--and fade away after however many months of hiding.


In addition to being speculative, animals don't have ethos.

So, you're saying, right here, right now, that we're fucked, we're already in a Living Dead scenario and have no chance to resurrect ourselves but to go full out "Fuck the consequences go loud as fast as possible?"

Except you're also saying that they're bloodhounds and we won't have any time to train or get stronger, which means that we won't have time to train or mobilize any forces we might raise either by that definition--unless you're suggesting that going loud will delay their reaction somehow?

You're also saying that people have the memory of a goldfish and will forget Lilly's contribution within a week or more if we don't act right now.

Like, what the hell are you trying to advocate here? It's like you're not even reading the same story as the rest of us.
 
We have a soldier here who specializes in training the militia and us. Boosts here.
Forest Within the Dream is a massive power multiplier, not to mention how our everything plays into it.
And we have Rapid Iterator, a dungeon to forge our minions and ourselves with.

PS, anyone understand what this means in regards to boons? Like what rewards can we expect?
Huh? Our Foundational Ethos is Towering Edifice to Heaven.
 
In addition to being speculative, animals don't have ethos.

Do we know this to actually be true. Like ethos exist that allow for the land to take it. I could easily see some magical animals having an ethos. Heck this could be the difference between stuff like common beasts like our horse or powerful magical beasts like Dragons. An ethos.

Actually @Slyvena what does Lilly know about things like Dangerous Magical Beasts. Are beasts Like dragons or other such beasts known to be dangerous threats.
 
Look, forget about whether this is Living Dead, etc, and look at the facts. In the not-so-distant future, we can either:
  1. Face Waters with an army on our back...
  2. Or with a party of 5 on our back (once we run away, are painted as outlaws, and the army becomes unrecruitable)
  3. Not facing him is not an option, due to {Contention Prognosticator}.

If we face him with a party of 5, our personal power will have to scale significantly to handle Waters' entire force. We would, essentially, have to solo him in the not-so-distant future.

This is far less likely than engaging with an army (even against a larger army), which our {Collective Communion} is able to force multiply beyond precedent. Any early victories, while they're still testing our mettle, would also multiply into additional ethos--and probably at a far greater rate than fighting bears in the woods.

...

As to the notion that we'll be able to recruit the army anyway after going on the run... never underestimate the power of controlling the narrative, for months if not years.

Joining an uprising is a difficult act, and without an impetus to do so ("look at that attempted kidnapping on the hero of the hour!") it's far less likely. It needs to go against both Waters' propaganda, and the guards'/Martin's hesitation--if Lilly left once, why wouldn't she do so again?

Right now, Martin and the guard are solidly on our side. Let's lean into our momentum, and keep them that way.
 
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Interlude probably going up tomorrow.
You guys will get to meet Marigold.

Is that about right?
That would be telling. ;)

For a totally (and I do mean totally) unhelpful hint on how Concordance works. Bubbles and Lines. Bubbles within Bubbles, bubbles around bubbles, Lines between Bubbles. Growing bubbles, shrinking bubbles. Subsuming bubbles. Not actually bubbles. There must be bubbles. Make Lines. Follow Lines. Leave the lines! Come back quickly though.
Fracture and Tension are not bubbles or lines, but talk about them.

Sebastian Waters created his own greatest enemy this day... and it wasn't Lilly.
I love this last line, really sells the whole Ethos.

A critical thought occurs: is our tree under attack/in dungeon territory? If so, sneaking to it might... not be the best idea though not completely out of character either without first testing how our new powers match up against the iterated creatures.
@Slyvena?
If need be, we can bring Captain Martin (and, by extension, his elite); it seems apparent that we're spilling most or all of our secrets; what's Petal next to that?
He already knew about your Locus and your desire to get there, so assume that's on the cards for what you're about to talk about with him.
(Unless you have some overwhelming desire to tell him the honestly very little you know about Petal)

If I were Slyvena I'd be all like NO STOP ASKING about this by now.
Haha it's fine. Munchkins gonna munchkin.
But I will say you literally cannot cheat this system. If the consequences of your actions are not clear to a sense Lilly possesses, then there is literally no way she can infer a future result. You don't even remember the other variations after the fact, only the chosen course and that you used {Sample Space} to choose it.
No leapfrogging, no precommitment conditionals, no nested loops. It's just not within the bounds of the power. Grow it into Tier 10+ and see if it gains new capacity, but right now it's just not there.
If you do something like somehow use {The Ladder} while within the {Sample Space} it will just tell you the same thing in all of them. No Meta f*ckery.

While {Sample Space} can be used to improve Lilly's thought patterns to a degree, in this world thought it not just a deterministic chain of chemistry, it ties into fundamental magic forces some of which fall outside the purview of Concordance. This is the same issue as I think I mentioned earlier in the thread about how it struggles with Concepts. {Sample Space} will help Lilly outwork an idea she has much better if conditions are right, it is not quite as effective at helping her come up with new ideas, even if that idea was somehow able to be conceived off and formulated in a couple seconds.
Can definitely stop her from freezing in decision paralysis during a sudden confrontation for example, but every idea she has in {Sample Space} is not going to be an epiphany. She will often do new things, but its not going to redefine

If he wanted me to morally object to his personality death, he should have had a nicer personality.
Lol. If you don't use your mind responsibly it will be taken away from you.

May I make a suggestion that you put a link to any other threads in the OP or an informational threadmark, @Slyvena?
SB is basically an afterthought at this stage. At some point I'll probably mirror this onto somewhere like RoyalRoad instead. As I recall, one of the secret challenges (Figuring out the Dungeon <-> Foundational Ethos connection) was solved on SB by a loyal commenter and it was then immediately brought up in this forum too.
Also thanks for the like 100+ reactions over the past day TheBiggerFish :)

Assuming that Evie is doing the winning distribution automatically, the total XP gained by [Dream], [Brave], [Cleaver], and [Bedrock] is 115 XP. But that's only 60% of what they earned, which would mean that the total XP earned is about 191, with 115 going to their respective Ethos and 38 going to Evie and [Tower].
But that's not quite the case here. Evie got a total of 43 XP (extra 5 XP) and [Tower] got both 59.6 XP to its level (extra 21.6 XP) AND an additional 33 XP to its bank for Gravitas Weaving.
I wouldn't get too lost in the number crunching. I don't do the redistribution math, I just do a rough split 'close enough' to the voted one. Over the course of like 10 chapters it should average out to about right just by sheer iterative weight. Plus, you'll never be able to directly tell the difference between earned and diverted anyway. And [Towering Edifice to Heaven]'s interactions with Gravitas and how it feeds into its expansions are weird too.
Nevermind, I set up an excel formula from 2.3 onwards, so it actually will be pretty exact from now on.

And his [Rapid Iterator] could possibly create lots of prototypes in a short time
Plot Twist! I think you mean [Iteration to Perfection], your father does not have a Foundational Ethos.

Obviously, we shall go nowhere near Cierlla before being confident in our abilities to subvert or {Subvert} her. Our coordination makes us excellent for choosing battles.
Cirella is more than 2000Km, multiple kingdoms and a small sea away from you. Unless she decides to Sing to your Name, you shouldn't have any dealings with her for a long time. You wouldn't get her attention for anything less than assasinating the king though.

Lilly can just write out every permutation of plan to exist, circumventing the need to actually do the thinking bit.
It takes time to formulate an idea, decide to flash-write it and then judge whether it's a good idea or a bad one. 2 Seconds is woefully too short for that. You'd get the best version of those 2 seconds, so a well-made poo-sandwhich.

Actually @Slyvena what does Lilly know about things like Dangerous Magical Beasts. Are beasts Like dragons or other such beasts known to be dangerous threats.
So Lilly hasn't ever seen another intelligent race, but the Elves are cordial with Humans and you can find them in the larger cities from time to time. Lilly hasn't ever heard the specifics, but Ethea work differently for Elves in some way.
She's never heard of magical beasts having Ethea, but they are certainly stronger than and possess more abilities than their physical forms would allow, so something is going on there.
Dragons are mostly extinct, many considered them the servants of the Demons. Many Demons take on the shape of a Dragon in fairytales. Someone can probably explain how their magic worked too you, but you know they were tremendously powerful creatures and far more intelligent than humans.
 
For a totally (and I do mean totally) unhelpful hint on how Concordance works. Bubbles and Lines. Bubbles within Bubbles, bubbles around bubbles, Lines between Bubbles. Growing bubbles, shrinking bubbles. Subsuming bubbles. Not actually bubbles. There must be bubbles. Make Lines. Follow Lines. Leave the lines! Come back quickly though.
Fracture and Tension are not bubbles or lines, but talk about them.
This is just a guess, but this sounds like certain conceptions of multiple universes forming in the quantum foam between realities, to grow, shrink, pop, or encounter one another.

Edit: Fracture or Tension might be the Maw, which would make it an extra-multiversal threat of some sort. And lines might be timelines?
 
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So basically I'm gonna assume that some magical animals do in fact have integration vectors. It seems like exactly how the powers that be empower tons of stuff, like how dungeons have their own integration vectors.

However it probably doesn't work the same as it does for more intelligent race. Especially given how it seems to differ between intelligent species as well, like how elven ethea are different.
 
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This is just a guess, but this sounds like certain conceptions of multiple universes forming in the quantum foam between realities, to grow, shrink, pop, or encounter one another.

Edit: Fracture or Tension might be the Maw, which would make it an extra-multiversal threat of some sort. And lines might be timelines?

Fuck, I even wanted to use the word quantum in my big theorycraft but chose not to!

Alas.

Well, at any rate, I wish we had some idea where the Secret Challenges are here... One of them's probably figuring out who the traitor is.
 
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This is just a guess, but this sounds like certain conceptions of multiple universes forming in the quantum foam between realities, to grow, shrink, pop, or encounter one another.

Edit: Fracture or Tension might be the Maw, which would make it an extra-multiversal threat of some sort. And lines might be timelines?

Stuff like the concord was mentioned back in the interlude about the end of the first age. I doubt its related to the maw like at all. Plus the maw is it's own source.
 
Stuff like the concord was mentioned back in the interlude about the end of the first age. I doubt its related to the maw like at all. Plus the maw is it's own source.
I'm saying the Concord is the stuff that creates time and universes, and the Maw is something from outside all of that that devours time and universes. The bubbles and lines talk about fracture and tension (the maw, or something else outside) but are not them.

Of course this is all completely wild conjecture that is probably wrong.
 
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Fuck, I even wanted to use the word quantum in my big theorycraft but chose not to!

Alas.

Well, at any rate, I wish we had some idea where the Secret Challenges are here... One of them's probably figuring out who the traitor is.

I'd actually guess Matthew. Guy was joking around so much about how lucky Lilly was, I kinda feel like he was pretty jealous of us. Dude has a rare ethos but is stuck training people in the middle of nowhere. Plus Lord Waters arrived so soon. I wouldn't be surprised if the first thing that he did after the first training session was to send a message to Lord Waters about us.

edit: It's probably not Marius at least. Lord Waters would have known to use our Fathers state as a bargaining chip then (especially since he would have also known we aren't a good essence healer)
 
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For a totally (and I do mean totally) unhelpful hint on how Concordance works. Bubbles and Lines. Bubbles within Bubbles, bubbles around bubbles, Lines between Bubbles. Growing bubbles, shrinking bubbles. Subsuming bubbles. Not actually bubbles. There must be bubbles. Make Lines. Follow Lines. Leave the lines! Come back quickly though.
Fracture and Tension are not bubbles or lines, but talk about them.
That sounds like particles and atoms to me. Lines being orbits and vectors.
Electrons and the other stuff being bubbles.

Something that vague can probably mean anything.
 
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