It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

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How I understood Sample Space was that it takes the best result from that time, though it can't see into the future. So even assuming we use a full two seconds, you still only have two seconds worth of thought. I don't think Keen Mind is really hyper-accelerating our thoughts, meaning that we only have the best result we can get from two seconds of planning, which is obviously not great. There can be no deep rationale, no deep contingency, nothing crazy. So even if Sample Space picks the best plan, it doesn't matter, because with two seconds you can't have a complete plan at all, probably only a couple of steps.

Maybe if we get a flow ethos that makes us think much, much, much faster or something like that, then it might be great.
 
Btw y'all do realize that sample space and the ladder run on the same resource. We should be using the ladder for ladder type things and sample space for sample space type things.
 
I'm not even sure that the guard will support us if a fight breaks out when he comes back to get us as is legally allowed without using subversion to convince them to die for us and so I think that we should be looking into ways to get around him without starting a revolution like learning how to read what the laws are and what legal options we have or even if there's a safe place to escape too where he can't follow us to drag us back. Learning to read will open up a lot of doors and it's something that lily wants to do.

As far as we know he didn't bother to talk to the person who wanted us to turn dream within the forest into a healing ethos which would mean that escaping him would be as easy as leaving before he comes to pick us up so that when he arrives where in another nobles area where he couldn't legally touch us.

I get that the vote is all but settled for declaring that we want to start a revolution but I would rather run away. We could finish the dungeon for the experience, search out any spies, Then we run away towards safety through the forest using our specialized nature ethos to be untiring so that we can escape. If we can convince the guard that the lord is petty enough to have them all killed so that they would run with us so that lord waters has to explain how he lost the entire militia to desertion that would be even better and if he follows us then he would be fighting us tired and outside of his territory.
 
It is a point to note that when Captain Martin called to draw, all of the Watch stood with him, so there is some degree of loyalty to him over "the good of the kingdom". However, this was in response to a noble blatantly breaking the rules designed to protect the Watch. They may be less likely to fall in line in a month's time when Lord Waters is "within his rights" to claim Lilly.

This vote wasn't really "prepping for revolution" so much as "do we bring Captain Martin into our WHOLE mess". Trying to make a stand at Harmuph may not be in our favor, even if we got absolute airtight evidence that his "inside man" was attempting to burn down our house on his orders. In all likelihood, we are more likely to be cashing in our favors, getting our last bits of education and power, and preparing our family to hit the road.

But all that is hoping Captain Martin is in more of a "we have little time and much to do" mood rather than calling out "Freak! FREEEAK!"
 
kitsune9 said:
I'm not even sure that the guard will support us if a fight breaks out when he comes back to get us
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I was worried at first, but am now fairly confident that the guard (or the Elite, at the very least) would support whatever Captain Martin decides. They made their stand not based on the precise intricacies of jurisprudence, but based on their loyalty to the Captain (and with 3% chance of yielding, at that).

(It helps also that the guard now thoroughly disapprove of the attitude that has been revealed--and would disapprove even more with the words we've plausibly overheard. It should be a relatively easy sell to their subordinates... assuming there is hope of victory.)

So, our getting the Captain's support would probably allow us to recruit the guard. Reading the rulebooks, on the other hand, is unlikely to get us anywhere, since it was shown they don't care about the rules.

actuallynotanegg said:
So even assuming we use a full two seconds, you still only have two seconds worth of thought. I don't think Keen Mind is really hyper-accelerating our thoughts, meaning that we only have the best result we can get from two seconds of planning, which is obviously not great.
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The original idea hinged upon Lilly learning very-fast writing; the meta-power then selects the best plan according to the Lillies' judgement, and actual-Lilly writes out said plan.

(The big unknown is, in this case, how much computation the meta-power at the end allows. In total, we certainly get more than the two seconds worth of thought, but how much more?)

In the absence of such accelerated writing, we're left with the notion of generating revealing insights. There are certain key turns of thought that, essentially, dictate the rest of the plan (or from which the rest of the plan is easily built); these would be the main result of such an endeavor.

You're right, however, in that sample space seems to synergize with hyper-accelerated thought. We should be looking for such a power next (maybe the speculated bullet time from the Brave Blood ethos?).

Edifier said:
And his [Rapid Iterator] could possibly create lots of prototypes in a short time, we have an Ethos that if I'm reading this stuff right develops them to their logical conclusion.
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Sadly, Yolun "only" has [Iteration to Perfection], which to be sure probably does synergize with the foundational ethos [Rapid Iterator]. (Dungeon for quick prototypes + Yolun for optimization of prototypes) seems like a winning combo, especially with Yolun potentially integrated into the Dream (but regardless, with the collective communion).

Which is why we should grab [Rapid Iterator] next, if at all possible.
 
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Yeah, basically, the point isn't making our stand here, the point is getting an accomplice who can help us maximize the time we've won.
 
Just using Martin then dropping him would be a significant waste.
  1. [Cleaver of Fortune on Steroids] has told us that Martin would follow us all the way (if we don't screw it up)
  2. The recent action demonstrates that he has the loyalty of at least his Elite
  3. The recent action has also soured the Elite significantly on Lord Waters; with their initial negative impression, they'll be very inclined to believe the summary Martin will soon provide them
  4. Said summary is also awful enough that it'd be an easy sell to the guard subordinates
  5. Previous loyalty to Lilly + hope of victory from our help with the wolves
  6. {Contention Prognosticator} tells us we cannot avoid fighting Waters. Better to do so with an army on our back, than counting on our own personal power increases to match his entire party.
In short, this is one of few opportunities at gaining the guard's loyalty against an unambiguous villain, while we still have a low enough profile to be seen as a wronged party.
 
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I want to have a Glorious Revolution someday but now is probably not the time. For one, we don't properly know the social issues which would make a good pivot. The common folk may be oppressed by the nobility, but we don't have the power to contest that on our own. We would need more. Issues that divide those in power.

Also Harmuph is a terrible place tostart a revolution, it's literally nowhere.
 
noncannon said:
Just using Martin then dropping him would be a significant waste.
  1. {Cleaver of Fortune on Steroids} has told us that Martin would go with us all along the way (if we don't screw it up)
  2. The recent action demonstrates that he has the loyalty of at least his Elite
  3. The recent action has also soured the Elite significantly on Lord Waters; with their initial negative impression, they'll be very inclined to believe the summary Martin will soon provide them
  4. Said summary is also awful enough that it'd be an easy sell to the guard subordinates
In short, this is one of few opportunities at gaining the guard's loyalty against an unambiguous villain, while we still have a low enough profile to be seen as a wronged party.
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The problem is that the Watch can't handle Waters, he's the lawful lord--and rebellion tends to drag in a response beyond the local province. He can effectively escalate harder and call in more formidable assets until we break, and it forces his hand to report the situation upstairs--that doesn't happen as long as he thinks he can have a monopoly. As long as we keep this to a shadow war, we don't need to fear him reporting our existence upstairs when he can hire mercenaries and deploy agents to capture or kill us instead.

We're in no way strong enough yet to turn Lillyquest into [Tower] Defense. If we can save him, we can and should--it's just common sense to be good to your allies. But we can't expect him to stand with us and have any hope of surviving. The setting is just too big.

The real upside is that the Watch as a whole is going to be willing to accommodate us, because giving us the best chance we can is the best way they can repay us for helping them solve [Rapid Iterator]'s onslaught without any of their friends and colleagues dying.

We need to learn more, we need to do more, and we need more power before we can hope to reform this filthy society. They will get not a [Dark Lord] but a [Bright Queen!] Adorable as a pile of kittens and fierce as the surging river!

And by all indications, reforming the world into something socially functional without the need for brutal oppression might be just what we need to survive the sky caving in within a few years.
 
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Nowhere is a great place to start; we won't gain any traction in Somewhere, where the power systems are too entrenched.

Lord Waters having more formidable forces (assuming he's allowed to escape) is indeed a danger; but that is the danger of every uprising. Our communion gives us the perfect ability to engage in perfectly-coordinated guerilla tactics, striking where the enemy is weakest, flowing away from Waters' attacks. Perhaps more importantly, it gives the guard hope of victory.

There is danger, yes, but we also know from Word of QM that hiding leads to our eventual death. This is, perhaps, our only chance to gain allies in a big way, rather than spending the rest of our years on the run, barely staying ahead of our hunters.

(And, if the uprising does fail, going on the run is still a viable fallback.)
 
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I personally just don't want to start a rebellion when we have no idea what the actual political issues are, where we can't easily recruit very good soldiers, and for us to be much stronger before doing so.

One person (Cirella the Siren) was mentioned to have the power to use their ethos to create essentially 1000 invincible soldiers. Until we can compete with the big girls, I don't really want to cause trouble which would have the kingdom retaliate hard. And there is little Kingdoms retaliate harder against than rebellion.

Slyvena said:
Cirella the Siren has a memetic song capable of sharing harm between all who are currently singing it in a wide field, frequently used to share damage between 1000 soldiers at a time rendering them nigh invincible for example. She also has more than 10 other music based abilities.
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We are unlikely to become politically aware until it becomes far, far too late to do anything about it. Our only plausible chance for a loyal army is to lean on Martin with our sorely-bought advantages; and we need to do so now.

In other words, delaying until we're more powerful amounts to a commitment to avoid this route and go on the run, hunted. (If, on the other hand, the uprising fails, that's still a possible option.)


Obviously, we shall go nowhere near Cierlla before being confident in our abilities to subvert or {Subvert} her. Our coordination makes us excellent for choosing battles.

[Other possibilities: make the environment impassable for Cierlla and her troops, through burial or otherwise. Force them to walk through heat and then water, which might weaken their equipment at least.]
 
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noncannon said:
The original idea hinged upon Lilly learning very-fast writing; the meta-power then selects the best plan according to the Lillies' judgement, and actual-Lilly writes out said plan.

(The big unknown is, in this case, how much computation the meta-power at the end allows. In total, we certainly get more than the two seconds worth of thought, but how much more?)

In the absence of such accelerated writing, we're left with the notion of generating revealing insights. There are certain key turns of thought that, essentially, dictate the rest of the plan (or from which the rest of the plan is easily built); these would be the main result of such an endeavor.

You're right, however, in that sample space seems to synergize with hyper-accelerated thought. We should be looking for such a power next (maybe the speculated bullet time from the Brave Blood ethos?).
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Ah, yeah. You're right. It's hard to wrap my mind around infinity sometimes. Lilly can just write out every permutation of plan to exist, circumventing the need to actually do the thinking bit.
 
...Anyway, I was looking at the spreadsheet earlier, and the "Lilly doesn't know what Brave Blood is really supposed to do" thing left me thinking...And what I think I think is that Brave Blood is or is related to the Power of Heart. Like, on a conceptual level. That said, this thought originated from a very tired me and is thus granted an extremely low confidence interval, in addition to uh, being kind of poorly explained. Basically, the thought was "what thematic connection can I make between True Song and everything else?" and "the strength-boosting powers hit on your heartbeat, and the True Song is about speaking your heart" came up. I could argue that Melded Carapace is "drawing an attack to the heart of your defenses", in theory. Maybe I'll find more to it. Maybe I'm totally off base. But I wanted to put this out there.
 
... Checks out, yeah. The Heart pumps blood, [Brave Blood] strengthens the heart and lets it do metaphorical stuff at needed.

It would explain why Lilly's Sync and Divergence have been not doing great there, she's been getting her proverbial 'Heart' pummelled for quite some time now.
 
noncannon said:
We are unlikely to become politically aware until it becomes far, far too late to do anything about it. Our only plausible chance for a loyal army is to lean on Martin with our sorely-bought advantages; and we need to do so now.

In other words, delaying until we're more powerful amounts to a commitment to avoid this route and go on the run, hunted. (If, on the other hand, the uprising fails, that's still a possible option.)


Obviously, we shall go nowhere near Cierlla before being confident in our abilities to subvert or {Subvert} her. Our coordination makes us excellent for choosing battles.

[Other possibilities: make the environment impassable for Cierlla and her troops, through burial or otherwise. Force them to walk through heat and then water, which might weaken their equipment at least.]
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We cannot control who the kingdoms sends. But whoever they are, they are likely experienced in murdering uppity fools with powerful ethos. We won't have been the first peasant with a powerful ethos to revolt. Cirella is merely one among many powerful people who exist.

Also learning politics often is less difficult than you'd think, especially if we get the right ethos and are in an actual city. The most important bits is to just talk to right people at the right times. Which we actually should be able to do fairly well.
 
To put it another way, what happens if we do go on the run (after a < 1 month period of getting small amounts of help from the Captain)?

We will have at most 5 major ethos powers in our party, probably less. (Our {Collective Communion} would be near useless, compared to coordinating hundreds.)

Waters will certainly be hunting us. With < 5 party members, will have no chance in an actual battle, so our only recourse is not to be found.

...

But {Contention Prognosticator} told us that one would kill the other, so eventually we will engage in battle. So, effectively, going on the run means we will be forced to engage Waters with our own personal power, rather than with an army on our back.

Our personal power is increasing... but at a great enough rate to battle his entire party?

Come to think of it, this may be the strongest argument that we cannot avoid this fight, so must gain as many allies as possible.
 
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noncannon said:
To put it another way, what happens if we do go on the run (after a < 1 month period of getting small amounts of help from the Captain)?

We will have at most 5 major ethos powers in our party. (Our {Collective Communion} would be near useless, compared to coordinating hundreds.)

Waters will certainly be hunting us. With < 5 party members, will have no chance in an actual battle, so our only recourse is not to be found.

...

But {Contention Prognosticator} told us that one would kill the other, so eventually we will engage in battle. So, effectively, going on the run means we will be forced to engage Waters with our own personal power, rather than with an army on our back.

Our personal power is increasing... but at a great enough rate to battle his entire party?

Come to think of it, this may be the strongest argument that we cannot avoid this fight, so must gain as many allies as possible.
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The issue is that you seem to be of the impression that they would outscale us? Or catch us immediately?

We can't avoid the conflict, true. But that doesn't mean forcing his hand early is good for us!. It even said "In the distant long-term", not "Right now".

Because rallying an army to face him and expecting him to come at us with just his own core forces is folly. Trying to train a force to stand against him? We have no way of ensuring infosec on that scale when he has a Concordance Master at his side. Our only defense for now is to evade until we can build up enough strength to take him on, by not triggering anything that would convince him to escalate, because we die or have to abandon what we care for at that point, and I consider both of these to be undesired outcomes.
 
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noncannon said:
To put it another way, what happens if we do go on the run (after a < 1 month period of getting small amounts of help from the Captain)?

We will have at most 5 major ethos powers in our party. (Our {Collective Communion} would be near useless, compared to coordinating hundreds.)

Waters will certainly be hunting us. With < 5 party members, will have no chance in an actual battle, so our only recourse is not to be found.

...

But {Contention Prognosticator} told us that one would kill the other, so eventually we will engage in battle. So, effectively, going on the run means we will be forced to engage Waters with our own personal power, rather than with an army on our back.

Our personal power is increasing... but at a great enough rate to battle his entire party?

Come to think of it, this may be the strongest argument that we cannot avoid this fight, so must gain as many allies as possible.
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We are gonna have to fight Waters eventually. But like, doing do in a way we look like rebels is foolish. Rebellions get crushed and they will search hard for us if we try and escape because you want to crush the ringleaders. Plus we may look like we have an inverted ethos as well.
 
It said "no distant futures", which means the battle will take place in the not-so-distant future. I think this is at least moderately strong evidence that Waters has reliable "Find People" ethos at his disposal.

Gaining an army later would be better than now... if it were possible. Right now, while we're still unambiguously the wronged party, while both our incredible assistance and Waters' unpleasant methods are still in recent memory among the guard, may be our only chance.

If we start by "evading them first", there will likely be nothing to come back to. Battle will, in the not-so-distant future, be forced, and we will have only a small party on our side.
 
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