Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Regardless of how much Akuma are watched on the average, we can make a good guess that the ones on WMD-retrieval will be both likely watched now and certainly debriefed afterwards.

Which is already enough to make it impossible for Eiko to openly side with us and still achieve her goals at some later point.

Which is why she's talking so unclearly now.
 
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1)You vastly underestimate the administrative overhead required for regular surveillance of even a few dozen people.
Especially since you need watchers watching the watchers to prevent their subversion.

You are also assuming that the Yama Kings can bestow power to watch all their akuma simultaneously.
Instead of, say, enough bandwith to watch maybe five people at a time. Given the fact its explicitly stated in Thousand Hells that Yomi Wan does sometimes lose track of their akuma, we know both their bureaucracy and surveillance is limited.

Anyway, the Greater Akuma who stole his own soul reliquary from Emma-O's treasury and got away clean pretty clearly indicates that the Yama Kings either cant or wont maintain constant surveillance of even their highest value akuma.
Let alone the lower tiers.


2)The Stone Table is in Chicago-over-Chicago, which is a plane of the NeverNever over Chicago.
Hence the name.
Summer Knight chapter 23: Lea takes Dresden there.

The Queens might be able to summon it, or more likely just take people there directly.
But thats its permanent location.

The ability to spy on akuma seems inherent to the Yama King and its servants. No bandwidth limit is mentioned or implied.

The Stone Table was moved to Chicago for the events of Summer Knight. We have no reason to believe that's its permanent location that I'm aware of.
 
Another interesting angle here is why she thinks we can help. If we don't use the crown on her for something else she might be a direct enough connection to datamine all of Kakuri for information on exaltations. Since she works for Emma-O, her soul is literally in his palace, and she was sent here to get one for him.

The closest possibility I can think of is that she wants to steal one of his mantles so that he has to go to the other to survive.

His backstory does say he started as a god of the Ainu and then started taking power from the Japanese believing he was a demon of punishment. In DF terms that sounds like picking up a new mantle.

How that works with his better half is an interesting question, but assuming some shred is still around crippling or destroying his Emma-O identity in the metaphysical sense could force him to jump ship to a more restrictive office.

Crazy and beyond our abilities, but at least it'd explain what she thinks the opportunity is.
You don't need a large or complex bureaucracy to watch a few dozen people full time. That's the thing. You could easily have three or four devils assigned per akuma and it would still be a meaningless fraction of the Yama King's legions, and it would give you a headsup if they were in trouble and needed bailing out or if they were screwing something up.

Fundamentally, akuma are rare and valuable. The time of the devils required is not.

And yes, sometimes Yama Kings waste akuma because they hate them as they hated their Wan Xian predecessors. That doesn't make them always that stupid or wasteful, particularly not when the akuma are being sent on critical missions.
Not sure I buy those numbers.

Per the ExWoD book, jades are effectively a species and could have spread out over the planet if they weren't outcompeted in various regions. This isn't exactly an actual WoD fusion*, but jades are still a species in the DF too.

Trash mooks can probably be acquired in quantity from the huge explosion in population since the Industrial Revolution.

I can buy a significant percentage of his important elders being here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had hundreds or potentially thousands of idiots caught before they could get anywhere under his thumb.

There's also the matter of his devils not actually being numberless and their skill sets not being interchangeable.

Four idiots watching one elder Akuma isn't going to do much. Putting four good spies on the same is taking them away from other tasks. They're also more complicated to watch themselves, creating further overhead.

Emma-O has a small country of servants to work with, but that isn't the same as being limitless.

Regardless of how much Akuma are watched on the average, we can make a good guess that the ones on WMD-retrieval will be both liekly watched now and certainly debriefed afterwards.

Which is already enough to make it impossible for Eiko to openly side with us and still achieve her goals at some later point.

Which is why she's talking so unclearly now.
That's a fair point, regardless of mechanism she's going to be high on the watchlist.

Which really blows this whole thing up anyway. She's might be subtle enough to have avoided making it clear what she plans for Emma-O, but she's still obviously screwing around.

I still want to know what she's thinking, but this seems dead on arrival unless Eiko specifically addresses this issue.

* Sort of. It seems like the design goal is to make the ExWoD stuff support the Dresden Files rather than actually merge the settings as peer elements or something.
 
Not sure I buy those numbers.

Per the ExWoD book, jades are effectively a species and could have spread out over the planet if they weren't outcompeted in various regions. This isn't exactly an actual WoD fusion*, but jades are still a species in the DF too.

Trash mooks can probably be acquired in quantity from the huge explosion in population since the Industrial Revolution.

I can buy a significant percentage of his important elders being here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had hundreds or potentially thousands of idiots caught before they could get anywhere under his thumb.

There's also the matter of his devils not actually being numberless and their skill sets not being interchangeable.

Four idiots watching one elder Akuma isn't going to do much. Putting four good spies on the same is taking them away from other tasks. They're also more complicated to watch themselves, creating further overhead.

Emma-O has a small country of servants to work with, but that isn't the same as being limitless.

As I say, you watch them as much for their own benefit as to track them for disloyalty.

Note that no akuma Wan Kuei is really a trash mook. They're expensive because you need to feed them mortals unless they're greater akuma, but they're also physically and spiritually resilient enough that you can load them down with Investments. Every Wan Kuei is exceptional enough to have escaped a Hell and so passed the trials to take the Second Breath. Every lesser akuma has at least as many Investments as required to pay for their soul, plus a customisable set of as many others as their master chose to give them for this particularly mission. As this is quite an important mission for Emma-O, he would presumably have given them an appropriate investment loadlout.

A Yama King's mooks would be bakemono, each lesser akuma is probably a highly skilled (after having the requisite abilities downloaded into their mind) and valuable operative.
 
As I say, you watch them as much for their own benefit as to track them for disloyalty.

Note that no akuma Wan Kuei is really a trash mook. They're expensive because you need to feed them mortals unless they're greater akuma, but they're also physically and spiritually resilient enough that you can load them down with Investments. Every Wan Kuei is exceptional enough to have escaped a Hell and so passed the trials to take the Second Breath. Every lesser akuma has at least as many Investments as required to pay for their soul, plus a customisable set of as many others as their master chose to give them for this particularly mission. As this is quite an important mission for Emma-O, he would presumably have given them an appropriate investment loadlout.

A Yama King's mooks would be bakemono, each lesser akuma is probably a highly skilled (after having the requisite abilities downloaded into their mind) and valuable operative.
Counterpoint here; the red, white, and black courts support populations of that size or larger on mortal predation. They can leave them alive afterwards if they want, but a significant number prefer to completely consume humans on a regular basis.

I see no reason the Akuma, or jades in general for that matter, couldn't do the same.
 
Counterpoint here; the red, white, and black courts support populations of that size or larger on mortal predation. They can leave them alive afterwards if they want, but a significant number prefer to completely consume humans on a regular basis.

I see no reason the Akuma, or jades in general for that matter, couldn't do the same.

The problem is the competition. It's the existence of the Jades and the other three courts that mean that it's not free for Emma-O to keep akuma fed. Either they're undercover in wider Jade society, or someone will probably notice that 'their' mortal herd is being eaten by someone else, and violently object.
 
He can definitly give new orders as soon as Eiko sleeps, that part is explicit.

He might have also allowed the Greater Akuma to give her orders. I don't know for sure, but I think it's a fair guess that someone called the Will of Kakuri represents the will of Kakuri here.

I do not know if Emma-O can actually give remote orders outside of sending dreams. I guess he could personally leave his hell to do so, but that would be a huge risk with a Knight of the Sword next door.
So no, I'm not sure on that part.

He can give her orders as soon as she sleeps, but it should be noted that Emma-O is limited in bow much time he has... and also in his arrogance. Why would be think he needs to give her new orders when his previous ones seem to work? Basically it would be up to Eiko to make sure she still looks loyal. She would be helped Molly thinks, but the fact that to most divination she would show up as loyal
 
"Rare are the crops replanted by the light of an eclipse, flowers more often then rice and yet they must love the moon as they love the sun."
VOTE
[X] Turn the conversation to the Seed of Night, maybe you can come at this from the other angle
-[X]STUNT: Mentally you hesitate, turning the topic over in your mind before speaking again, but Lydia beats you to it. "Mirror flower, water moon." Lydia says, tilting her head. "As a man cannot be known by his looks, neither can the sea be fathomed by a gourd." The shikome shifts her body at that, and there is no more trace of amusement in her reply "Rice cake to the rice cake store, Lydia of the House of Rhi". "Melon field, under a plum tree." is the sharp reply, its meaning passing entirely over your head, but leading you to speak. "The mountains are high" you murmur, deliberately not finishing the saying "And yet people often dont see whats under their feet. Tell me, Eiko-san." As you speak a circlet of eyes condenses on your brow, green fire given form "Can you see Mount Tai?"





Im having trouble coming up with a stunt thats dramatic without being cheesy. But since I already started, here it is.
Like BronzeTongue said, its a waste and unnecessary to abandon diplomacy and start a fight if we dont have to.

And yes, those are all Chinese and Japanese sayings of varying vintage.
 
Votes are a two way tie, nearly a three way.Any lurkers now might be the time to chip in if you are minded to

Update will be tomorrow morning
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 18, 2023 at 4:21 PM, finished with 114 posts and 11 votes.

  • [X] Ask what you can do to help
    -[X] Offer Mercy in Servitude
    -[X] STUNT: As understanding dawns like the first ray of the sun, a context-appropriate responce forms in your mind. Looking directly into Eiko's eyes, a subtle and serene smile forms on your face, even as your hand makes Varadamudrā, and the ever-shifting flames of your anima form a fascimile of a lotus shape. A moment later, when you are sure she saw your reaction, and understood that it was deliberate, you speak: "All flowers need nourishment to grow strong and see the sun. Lady Eiko, would you be so generous as to offer us refreshments?"
    [X] Plan Eikonomics
    -[X] Attempt to determine how Eiko plans to do this, what she might ask of Molly, and what she can offer in return
    -[X] Stunt: Meeting Eiko's eyes, something in them almost resonates.
    —[X] A creature cast in darkness, asking her to save her master from the hell that he rules with an iron fist and is caged in with iron bars. In the depths of her heart, where sublime certainty had planted itself in a moment where she was anything but, there is an echo of familiarity.
    —[X] Hope is not a plan, but it is a start. "To each grain of rice, it and its closest fellows are as precious as any flower." Molly says with a lightness that belies the seriousness carved in every line of her face.
    -[X] "So to is it for the sun, moon, and even the brightest stars. It is to their detriment that their sorrows blind them to those of others. Who knows what might be possible, if rice can reach heaven or a star can taste the secrets of the earth"
    [X] Have Clippy discreetly give the signal to go in to your allies at the exits
    -[X] Tell Lady Eiko that you are sorry you don't seem to be having enough common interests to bring this talk to a more fruitful result.
    -[X] Activate your Viridian Exoskeleton, due to your already flaring Anima you should be capable of activating flight and deal aggravated damage without further actions wasted
    -[X] Everyone focusses their offensive on Lady Eiko, Wan Kuei are vastly stronger when they have time to switch on a variety of Shintai-powers and take their demonic form, so don't get distracted by mooks.
    [X]Speak openly of her intentions and what Emma-O will do to her when he finds out. Eiko has no choice. She must fight the will of Emma-O now even if it destroys her, for if she doesn't Emma-O will destroy her in an even more painful manner.
    -[X]Stunt: "You are doomed" You say the words with compassion. "When Emma-O learns of your intentions he will destroy you in the cruelest manner his very experienced mind can devise. Your only hope now if to fight his will with everything you have. For even if it destroys yourself it will be a better end and maybe just maybe by devoting your will to me I can shield you from a measure of his wrath so that at least a part of you will survive."
    [X] Turn the conversation to the Seed of Night, maybe you can come at this from the other angle
    [X] Ask what you can do to help
    [X] Turn the conversation to the Seed of Night, maybe you can come at this from the other angle
    -[X]STUNT: Mentally you hesitate, turning the topic over in your mind before speaking again, but Lydia beats you to it. "Mirror flower, water moon." Lydia says, tilting her head. "As a man cannot be known by his looks, neither can the sea be fathomed by a gourd." The shikome shifts her body at that, and there is no more trace of amusement in her reply "Rice cake to the rice cake store, Lydia of the House of Rhi". "Melon field, under a plum tree." is the sharp reply, its meaning passing entirely over your head, but leading you to speak. "The mountains are high" you murmur, deliberately not finishing the saying "And yet people often dont see whats under their feet. Tell me, Eiko-san." As you speak a circlet of eyes condenses on your brow, green fire given form "Can you see Mount Tai?"
 
Ok, so, let me summarize the situation as I understand it, and our goals:
1) Eiko has convinced herself that "the best way to serve Emma-O is to reform Emma-O so he regains his former glory and benevolence". She is not "rebelling", but is seeking freedom in this way. She almost certainly knows that if her ideas are discovered, she'll be, at best, killed
2) Eiko is conveying this information to us in a deniable and covert way. Badly. She has to know it, and the fact that she is still doing it at all means two things:
a) She is extending a hell of a lot of trust here. Likely because Knights of the Cross are big on redemption
b) She believes that she can't talk openly. Either because she thinks herself under active surveliance or because she expects to be made to recount this encounter later is unknown. This means that we can't talk openly with her, and have to keep up some manner of metaphor going, in case she is being surveilled
3) We understood more than what Eiko actually said, as we got context via NWS.

Our goal here is, in my opinion:
1) Remove her from the current conflict, or, ideally, turn her against Kakuri's Will on Earth
2) Make sure that she believes that Molly keeping her exaltation is the best way to achieve her goals
3) Make sure that she wants to cooperate with us in the future.

My vote as it stands right now shows her that we understood what she talked about, and gives her a taste of MiS. It's not exactly "serve me or die" ultimatum. It's "I can do this, and am extending trust to you as you extended it to me" thing. I think.
 
Let me help a little with that:

[x] Yog

There, not tied anymore.

Why are you committed to agreeing to help before we hear here out. She hasn't even revealed she has a plan yet, we just picked it up with charms.

It seems entirely reasonable to me for us to get the pitch first, with as full an accounting as she can give of what she wants to do, before responding one way or another.

We wouldn't be wronging her by asking for actual details first. That's standard in just about every possible situation.
 
Honestly, I kind of want to just pump her for information on what Emma-O and his followers think our Exaltation is. They probably got it wrong, but it would give us a starting point for figuring out the plans of both Lady Eiko and the Will of Kakuri, and would help us figure out what Emma-O might try in the future after this attempt fails.

[X] Turn the conversation to the Seed of Night, maybe you can come at this from the other angle

Not convinced on @uju32's stunt, though, so just voting for the base option and figuring that the stunt will resolve itself.
 
Our goal here is, in my opinion:
1) Remove her from the current conflict, or, ideally, turn her against Kakuri's Will on Earth
2) Make sure that she believes that Molly keeping her exaltation is the best way to achieve her goals
3) Make sure that she wants to cooperate with us in the future.

My vote as it stands right now shows her that we understood what she talked about, and gives her a taste of MiS. It's not exactly "serve me or die" ultimatum. It's "I can do this, and am extending trust to you as you extended it to me" thing. I think.
The problem is that you're implying a commitment to something we don't even have an elevator pitch on.

We have poorly delivered metaphor about bears and a snippet of postcognition.

Getting her to explain even the barest hint of what she wants directly, and what she'd have us do to support it, doesn't stop us from achieving those goals if they're possible in the first place and very well could help us avoid future troubles.

Part of our goal here is, as ever, not to screw ourselves over trying to solve a short term problem.

This sort of thing reads to me like the start a of a Greek tragedy meant to teach the audience a lesson about assumptions and the importance of being careful with your word. I legitimately cannot understand why you're so insistent on skipping basic due diligence.

That thing with Thomas and the coffee was probably early edition weirdness anyway, because we got rulings later that it only worked if both sides accept the infernal as master and the subject as a servant.
 
In Yog's proposal, how are we meant to apply Mercy in Servitude when Eiko doesn't serve us?
We aren't? It's an offer. This whole exchange is done in metaphors and double speak and with hidden meanings. I am trusting Eiko to pick up that we are asking for a reason.
The problem is that you're implying a commitment to something we don't even have an elevator pitch on.

We have poorly delivered metaphor about bears and a snippet of postcognition.

Getting her to explain even the barest hint of what she wants directly, and what she'd have us do to support it, doesn't stop us from achieving those goals if they're possible in the first place and very well could help us avoid future troubles.

Part of our goal here is, as ever, not to screw ourselves over trying to solve a short term problem.

This sort of thing reads to me like the start a of a Greek tragedy meant to teach the audience a lesson about assumptions and the importance of being careful with your word. I legitimately cannot understand why you're so insistent on skipping basic due diligence.

That thing with Thomas and the coffee was probably early edition weirdness anyway, because we got rulings later that it only worked if both sides accept the infernal as master and the subject as a servant.
I'm not sure there's much commitment going on? I mean, we are basically saying "I understood what you are trying to say and perhaps a bit more" (the reference to the flower sermon), "I am willing to be helpful and generous" (mudra we make), "here is what I can offer at the moment" (a bried taste of what Mercy in Servitude is like). The ball is then back in her court, where she evaluates our intentions and actions, and probably tells us more.
 
We aren't? It's an offer. This whole exchange is done in metaphors and double speak and with hidden meanings. I am trusting Eiko to pick up that we are asking for a reason.

Eiko seems like she may be genuinely loyal to Emma-O. I'm not sure Mercy in Servitude would function when she has another master she serves.
 
I'm not sure there's much commitment going on? I mean, we are basically saying "I understood what you are trying to say and perhaps a bit more" (the reference to the flower sermon), "I am willing to be helpful and generous" (mudra we make), "here is what I can offer at the moment" (a bried taste of what Mercy in Servitude is like). The ball is then back in her court, where she evaluates our intentions and actions, and probably tells us more.
This entire conversation is being done in metaphor and subtle implication. You're saying you'll help her and essentially asking for hospitality as a guest, which would dramatically change the tone of things even if MiS doesn't turn it into a display of power.

You're turning Eiko's attempt to recruit us into an audition for helping her.

It's not binding like a promise is, but it's also not the sort of thing we should walk back and forth on because we didn't bother to check what we were committing to.
 
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