Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Yeah, you can claim the WG has a lot of masks.

But if you show his most active supporters on earth being the guys with the swords forged from a nail of Jesus' cross or some bullshit like that, it stops working.
 
The white god isn't only the Christian god, and the implication given in all of this is that the fundamental nature of the conflict has been the same for a very long time.

This isn't WoD and the imported factions shouldn't operate exactly the same way.
Okay I'm quite unsure what you're getting out of here right because God not just being the Christian God or being more than just the Christian God is important but it also means there's more interference in general the more deities he even partially claims to be the more interference that you're talking about.

And while I get what you mean about imported factions and operate the same way. You need a Heavenly figure with the authority to curse Heavenly champions. Now you can either say that there are other beings directly on the level of God The August Personage of Jade, Brahma, Khaos or we go with the actual Fusion setting answer of God being all of those things possibly acting in a different cultural or otherwise expectation of authority.

Either way some being that's in charge of the Heavenly Authority that the 10,000 were the Earthly/ temporal enforcement figures for cursed them and following the Dharmic paths seemingly set by Heaven relieves them of that curse. So either a different being made the 10,000 other than God or something is letting the Dharma make the 10,000 powerful enough to in the words of White Wolf roll more successes than God on their curse.
What?

I'm talking about how Butcher made that claim but never showed it as having a practical impact in places it really should have. There are no Swords of Vishnu showing up to the fate of the world style events in canon. There is no reason for such people to be excluded except that Butcher didn't fully commit to the idea and do something about it. European faerie tales have more importance to the grand function of the setting than some of the most powerful religions that've ever been followed.
Oh that's completely my bad. Sorry. I misunderstood what you meant there also you're just completely right I have no idea what exactly is going on with God but the fact remains that like if God is at all Old Testament God he did melt Sodom and Gomorrah he did Kill or send Uriel to kill all of the firstborns of Egypt he did the command the Israelites to genocide the peoples of the Judea so that they may claim the land. He did test Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrifice his son to him. Though he didn't follow through God that is he did ask for that to happen.

It's really difficult to claim he was always about non-interference when the more deities you ascribe him to being the less true that becomes. The fact that he is canonically the Christian God means that he's killed tens of thousands and commanded the death of tens of thousands more. It's really really easy to see him making superhuman enforcers in Classical period Middle Kingdom when it's possible he also did the same thing in creating mortal nephilium as described in Genesis.
 
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The Kuei Jin do not exist in the canon Dresden Verse. The Jade Court does not work there as they do in this quest. But if you want to try to make a theory here... Maybe they are referring to the old bureaucracy before the current system or its remnants. And maybe the enlightenment of the Dharmas has nothing to do with God and the current Heaven. But rather with enlightenment in the Exalt type. Or are they another indestructible glitch in the system like a bunch of other things in the current world. Who knows how the White God assembled the world and what design compromises had to be made for this.
 
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Well, apparently Molly's world has some answers there considering what Nergui told us of it, along with the center of the Labyrinth maybe having some lore too.
 
I haven't really thought on those sort of implications but I'd like to think that the Fae Courts would keep this sort of thing in mind and be very careful because of it. This would be a big reason why the Courts were left with the Gates, because they wouldn't have the option of dropping it.
True, but we know that fae can be incompetent. Maeve genuinely was in canon, even before being infected with Nemesis. And that, due to feudal oaths, obligations of vassals pass onto their lords, as shown by Leanansidhe's obligations as Harry's godmother passing onto Mab while she was indisposed. And, as I understand it, oaths pass on from mantle bearer to mantle bearer (please someone correct me, I really hope to be wrong, because that (the oaths dying / resetting with the current mantle holder) would actually be a sane-ish method of keeping them from accumulating). This stuff basically has to accumulate over millenia.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 31, 2025 at 3:08 PM, finished with 45 posts and 6 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Urge of the Forbidden
    -[X] Try to get more information about him in general along the journey
    --[X] Use your Crown. Focus: The Vehicle
    ---[x] Question: How was Valentin Romero connected to the supernatural prior to coming to the Arctic on the mission that resulted in his Exaltation?
    [x] Try to get more information about him in general along the journey
    [X] Ask what he knows about vampires
    -[X] I know about the White Court which is the emotional succubus kind, the Black Court which is the bram stoker kind - quite literally, the book was written to tell everyone their weaknesses - and the Red Court which are the flesh mask bat guys. White Council is currently at war with the latter, and I am sourcing weapons to the White Council.
 
Okay I'm quite unsure what you're getting out of here right because God not just being the Christian God or being more than just the Christian God is important but it also means there's more interference in general the more deities he even partially claims to be the more interference that you're talking about.
What I mean is that the basic conflict of their nature is one that is very much older than the coins and doesn't make sense outside of the context we see right now.

In a lot of ways DF is accidentally a very Zoroastrian setting. Probably because it contributed a lot to the thinking of the Abrahamic faiths one way or another.

The point of contention on the nature of the human soul isn't compatible with a view of the white god who orders genocide and has no respect for mortals. By which I mean the big thing wearing the mask and not the god of the Bible.

My opinion is that the setting taking the conceit that all the gods are in some way real isn't the same as all religious texts being complete and correct in the setting. In a lot of ways they're specifically shown not to be, though this isn't exactly shown in regards to Heaven.


And while I get what you mean about imported factions and operate the same way. You need a Heavenly figure with the authority to curse Heavenly champions. Now you can either say that there are other beings directly on the level of God The August Personage of Jade, Brahma, Khaos or we go with the actual Fusion setting answer of God being all of those things possibly acting in a different cultural or otherwise expectation of authority.
Or that the Jades overstate their own importance. The end goal that must be preserved here isn't their supreme place in the hierarchy, ultimately they got slotted in to fill the role of a faction who's only canon properties are that they're called the jade court and never leave one particular valley in China.

Something like this would be entirely compliant to the setting and still allow them to exist:

1) The creator god puts on their jade robes and makes the Heavenly Bureaucracy in the same manner they created the many other Incarnae class gods. Potentially this includes leaving a few Celestine servants around at the top who used god names instead of being called angels. Then they remain largely uninvolved in a personal sense.

2) These lower order entities used their delegated authority and eventually caused the Jades to exist by taking it too far. The entire relationship they have with heaven then and now is with this set of divine paper pushers.

3) The curse and everything related to how the Jades operate come to be as a result of the god behind the Jade emperor getting fed up and doing whatever it is that they did to reset the board. Dharma either makes them strong enough to discard the lesser heaven which cursed them or else in line with smaller gods who have a similar relationship with Upper Management to what Odin used to have.

Still powerful, still important, but not the center of the universe like they are in their home setting.
 
Arc 15 Post 92: Hunter and Snare New
Hunter and Snare

14th of March 2007 A.D.

As you look down at the mass of shadowed essence masquerading as a vehicle and ask a simple question you get a simple answer: Hunter's Bait, only the word hunter isn't in English, it's in Latin: Venator. There are you had learned two types of hunter of the otherworldly: Venatori Umbrorum, researchers, scholars, allies of the White Council, the kind of people who would hire on a doctor of geology with the credentials to end up in Antarctica, and the true Venatori: those who fight the Oblivion war, those who might ask of that same geologist to make the ultimate sacrifice for the cause. Not much of a risk to tell him some of the truth if he is going to die anyway by his own hand or another. And then death made a mockery of their plans and presented another way.

Lost 1 Essence (Crown Question)

"You know there's no good reason to have a base on that godforsaken island," your companion says conversationally, as though the wind did not snatch every word from his lips to scatter it to the empty horizon. "Plenty of bad reasons though, there have been disappearances going back as far as the 1810s, whalers who drifted too far south, schooners blown off course..."

"What, like Jules Verne?" you ask the first question that pops into your head that isn't about ancient secret societies and being used as a sacrificial lamb by the above. Even with the answer you got there's no way to know how much he knows or what he might do with that knowledge now that he has true power.

"No, that's the Pacific. Huh... didn't know kids still read Verne."

"Well my younger brother definitely did read the Mysterious Island," you scoff, sounding more aggrieved by the sentiment than you really feel, but you still are a little. Honestly he's not even ten years older, way too young to pull the 'kids these days' card.

"Point is people have been going missing here for as long as there are records and it's not slowing down, if anything its speeding up. Last year a Trinidad flagged cargo ship bound for Johannesburg went radio silent, rescue planes found the ship six days later, just the ship, the whole crew was gone. Before that there was a French research vessel doing oceanography research in the area, they only found one survivor in a lifeboat, ended up in an asylum, never saw daylight for as long as he lived, which was... three years? Five? I forget, not like the details matter. Most of the scientists back at camp, they don't know anything but who signs their paychecks, but the projects they're working on, well they say it's to do with the impact of climate change on the ice shelf, how long it would take for portions of it to melt. That's true as far as it goes but they'd be rather surprised to find the surveys establishing what kind of engineering you'd need to speed it up. Tie the mountain to the sea. "

Regained 2 Essence (Urge)

You wait a while longer, but when no further revelations seem to be forthcoming you slip into your vial of bleach. The last thing you need is to take on whatever horror looms at the journey's end with your reserves half full.

Molly Essence 8/18
Molly Willpower 5/9


What do you want to see next?

[] Ascent of the Nameless Mountain (Continue with Molly)

[] Sword Against a New Foe (Michael interlude)

[] New Responsibilities (Lydia interlude)


OOC: The answer you got about the Abyssal's connection wouldn't have been enough to trigger the urge on their own, but fortuently Molly ingratiated herself with him enough for a but more insight into where you are going and what the fomori were doing.
 
What I mean is that the basic conflict of their nature is one that is very much older than the coins and doesn't make sense outside of the context we see right now.

In a lot of ways DF is accidentally a very Zoroastrian setting. Probably because it contributed a lot to the thinking of the Abrahamic faiths one way or another.

The point of contention on the nature of the human soul isn't compatible with a view of the white god who orders genocide and has no respect for mortals. By which I mean the big thing wearing the mask and not the god of the Bible.

My opinion is that the setting taking the conceit that all the gods are in some way real isn't the same as all religious texts being complete and correct in the setting. In a lot of ways they're specifically shown not to be, though this isn't exactly shown in regards to Heaven.
No I understand that perfectly well it's just that Uriel is in Canon the one who killed all the first born of Egypt and in the modern days he's still just a regular angel. The big thing wearing the mask of God or whatever it doesn't particularly matter Uriel is still The Spook of Heaven The Watchmen and also the Slayer of just only God knows how many children directly under God's word.

The total accuracy of biblical Tales is definitely in question but not all of them to the point where the Angels use the name described and Uriel gets offended when Harry calls him uri because the el is important to him. As that's the part of the name that describes him as Of God. While also not being offended by being called Mr Sunshine as his name means light of God or the fire of God.

Then theres Jesus and there's a lot of stuff going on with Jesus from the shroud of Turin to the shards of the cross. Though even Mab makes reference to him being real though she is making a point that his suffering will pale in comparison to slate's.

It's not really a question of how many acts from the Old Testament did God actually do but rather question of when did he pull his non interference Act because it is more recent than always.
that the Jades overstate their own importance.
To who are they stating that importance to. What important are you talking about being actors of a God on Earth is a thing so common that I'd have an easier time listing civilizations in time periods that don't supposedly have those that I can do it instantaneously. Where is there importance because on some level what they're saying is they were functionaries of Heaven that were given remit to act on Earth. They've got the disciplines and the history the records and the curse to prove it.

This isn't an overstatement of importance because if they were really overstating their importance they wouldn't be a hierarchy of heaven and Spirits directly above them that they used to report to or that they seek forgiveness from.

This is also in keeping with the fact even if they are overstating their importance Dharma still works. So either they were created by a set of deities strong enough to create the 10,000 and all of their Dharma and it isn't God but they still possess knowledge that it was the August personage Jade which they can know because they can access Spirit worlds and yet again the 10,000 aren't like kindred where Generations do just disappear there are Elders of the 10,000 that were there when they were instated and when they got cursed and are still around as Arhats today.
Still powerful, still important, but not the center of the universe like they are in their home setting.
Nothing about the lore of the 10,000 places them as the center of the universe. The fact of the matter is someone from on high in the bureaucracy of gods that actually managed the Middle Kingdom cursed them and following the dharmic paths relieves that curse. Believing it to be the will of the August personage of Jade, the will of Heaven, the will of whoever the fuck laid the curse it doesn't particularly matter.

If it just makes them more powerful than the deities that curse them then that's still worth noting and makes the dharmic paths still worth following.
 
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I am going to say this much about the place of Jades in the world because it's not a spoiler since it's something Molly sensed when meeting Nergui, there's an odd familiarity with how they use the Dragonlines.
 
True, but we know that fae can be incompetent. Maeve genuinely was in canon, even before being infected with Nemesis. And that, due to feudal oaths, obligations of vassals pass onto their lords, as shown by Leanansidhe's obligations as Harry's godmother passing onto Mab while she was indisposed. And, as I understand it, oaths pass on from mantle bearer to mantle bearer (please someone correct me, I really hope to be wrong, because that (the oaths dying / resetting with the current mantle holder) would actually be a sane-ish method of keeping them from accumulating). This stuff basically has to accumulate over millenia.
Maeve is a bad example. She's basically locked into the mindset of a horny teenager. She can only mentally grow so far if at all, on some level her being incompetent is kind of out of her hands. For the Leanansidhe thing, it's a bit weird because we know that the Fae can just trade favors, IIRC that's how Mab got her's out of Harry. That may extend to obligations rather than it being an automatic thing. Though it's also the case that having a Court in debt to you gives you some kind of magical inherit leverage over them, which is why Mab wants you to spend them ASAP so maybe it does work that way.

I have no idea as to the Mantle thing. As Butcher described it "Mab is Mab" when questioned about the iterations so I'd imagine that it does transfer do to the ego thing the Mantles enforce.

On that note, how much do you think a Court would be willing to pay for a Rule breaker made to effect oaths? Would probably break the setting though.
 
Maeve is a bad example. She's basically locked into the mindset of a horny teenager. She can only mentally grow so far if at all, on some level her being incompetent is kind of out of her hands
But this is true for all Winter Maidens, not just Maeve. When one third of your ruling triumvirate is eternally sexually frustrated and horny, it's not a recipe for good decisions. It's bad design.
On that note, how much do you think a Court would be willing to pay for a Rule breaker made to effect oaths? Would probably break the setting though.
They would probably murder you for offering it. Or at least Mab would. However, it's important to remember - while working under the command of the Ancient Sorcery binding (I forget the name) fae do not accrue or discharge debts. So, if we teach the spell to, say, Harry, Mab could get her debt system free fae squads. She would simply have to use the favor Harry owes her to get him to bind some fae of her choice and order them "follow Mab's orders as you normally would".

On what to do - so, he's a true venatori. Well, a disposable one. Still, maybe we should write to Archive? Do we know she's in charge of them? "In the course of giving an ultimate sacrifice as a true venator, Valentin Romero has been exalted as a chosen of death" should get her attention.
 
But this is true for all Winter Maidens, not just Maeve. When one third of your ruling triumvirate is eternally sexually frustrated and horny, it's not a recipe for good decisions. It's bad design.
Well, it's a good thing that "Mab" is actually the one in charge. If the oaths are owed to the Mantle then going up the ladder may mean that any oaths made as the Maiden don't carry since you'd be Mab afterwards as Butcher put it, but this is getting too speculative..

They would probably murder you for offering it. Or at least Mab would.
I don't know, Mab seems to like collecting weapons to get one over on Summer and killing Molly isn't exactly easy or costless even if you think you can manage and don't know about the clone mechanic.
Do we know she's in charge of them?
Around the time when we met the Archive in Mcanally's pub we ended up learning about her relation to them, though I don't recall if we knew she was in charge exactly. We had to decide what to do with an unknowing Outsider worshiper, which they usually just kill. I remember the idea that we should make them men in black laser mind wipers to deal with them.
 
No I understand that perfectly well it's just that Uriel is in Canon the one who killed all the first born of Egypt and in the modern days he's still just a regular angel. The big thing wearing the mask of God or whatever it doesn't particularly matter Uriel is still The Spook of Heaven The Watchmen and also the Slayer of just only God knows how many children directly under God's word.
My point was that literal biblical canon isn't necessarily canon to the setting of the Dresden Files. They're still just stuff written in a book by people who admit they don't understand what they're talking about. Your position assumes the Bible is an accurate reflection of DF history or a perfect recording of the intent of Heaven rather than something humans wrote.


The total accuracy of biblical Tales is definitely in question but not all of them to the point where the Angels use the name described and Uriel gets offended when Harry calls him uri because the el is important to him. As that's the part of the name that describes him as Of God. While also not being offended by being called Mr Sunshine as his name means light of God or the fire of God.
Names are important and harder to get wrong. Recordings of events are much tricker to keep accurate. Especially when you've got lots of people fiddling with it over a long period of time talking about events they weren't personally there for, many of whom may not have entirely pure motives.

I mean, just to name a well known and relatively benign example that's only lightly fudged by people; the Bible gives a good timeline for when Jesus is born because it references Roman taxation/census stuff. Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem in the first place to do something approximating the old school version of filing your tax returns.

This is not something which happens in the dead of winter, because that'd be an insane hardship for travelers. The Catholic Church moved Christmas to December as part of an effort to absorb and supplant pagan traditions. Just like how they rebranded cultural heroes and gods into saints in many places to make it easier for people to adapt.

What I'm going for here is that for the purpose of this setting I care a lot more about what the characters are presented to be in the story than in the external source material that inspired them and isn't a reliable source of applicable information.

This is the Uriel we get:

head. "The real war happened when you weren't looking."
"Huh?"
"Courtney," Jake said. "The little girl who almost got hit by a car."
"What about her?" I asked.
"You saved her life," he said. "Moreover, you noted the bruise on her cheek—one she acquired from her abusive father. Your presence heightened her mother's response to the realization that her daughter was being abused. She moved out the next morning." He spread his hands. "In that moment, you saved the child's life, prevented her mother from alcohol addiction in response to the loss, and shattered a generational cycle of abuse more than three hundred years old."
"I ... um."
"Chuck the electrician," Jake continued. "He was drunk because he'd been fighting with his wife. Two months from now, their four-year-old daughter is going to be diagnosed with cancer and require a marrow transplant. Her father is the only viable donor. You saved his life with what you did—and his daughter's life, too. And the struggle that family is going to face together is going to leave them stronger and happier than they've ever been."
I grunted. "That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?"
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water—but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
I grunted. "What about second baseperson Kelly? I saved her life, too?"
"No. But you made a young woman feel better in a moment where she felt as though she didn't have anyone she could talk to. Just a few kind words. But it's going to make her think about the difference those words made. She's got a good chance of winding up as a counselor to her fellow man. The five minutes of kindness you showed her is going to help thousands of others." He spread his hands. "And that only takes into account the past day. Despair and pain were averted, loss and tragedy thwarted. Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light, Warrior?"
Cite is a snippet Uju posted from the Warrior that I'll link instead of quote directly since he seems to have taken a break from the quest.

Uriel of the Bible can pound sand; the Uriel of the Dresden Files plays poker with the Devil for the fate of the world and still has the compassion in his heart to break cycles of abuse no one would fault him for leaving alone.
To who are they stating that importance to. What important are you talking about being actors of a God on Earth is a thing so common that I'd have an easier time listing civilizations in time periods that don't supposedly have those that I can do it instantaneously. Where is there importance because on some level what they're saying is they were functionaries of Heaven that were given remit to act on Earth. They've got the disciplines and the history the records and the curse to prove it.
It's a common practice because it's an excuse to justify excesses among the powerful.
If it just makes them more powerful than the deities that curse them then that's still worth noting and makes the dharmic paths still worth following.
I was being hyperbolic, but you get the point. Also, being good enough to shake a curse doesn't mean you can fistfight the person who cast it.

I'm not trying to argue that they should abandon their paths or something. Nor that they can't teach valuable lessons or a source of wisdom. I'm arguing with the idea that they've got implicit moral authority as a result of their enlightenment and the right to do what they want because heaven gave them a hall pass. Or at least that if they have a hall pass it wasn't signed by Heaven Heaven.

The original context of this discussion is Acolyte arguing someone like a Thrashing Dragon high on supernatural sadomasochism is totally acceptable to the entities using fantastic cosmic power to help mundane people escape alcoholism. Moreover, that they're so cool with it that if the Jade in question just gets good enough at torture they'll receive a thumbs up and job offer.

I contend this should never have been the case for the real deal creator in the Dresden Files and even if it was it sure as shit shouldn't be now.

But this is true for all Winter Maidens, not just Maeve. When one third of your ruling triumvirate is eternally sexually frustrated and horny, it's not a recipe for good decisions. It's bad design
She was notably bad because Mab has a shred of humanity left she couldn't bring herself to give up. Maeve shouldn't have gotten the job, but her mother wanted her to live forever in a position of strength.
 
My point was that literal biblical canon isn't necessarily canon to the setting of the Dresden Files. They're still just stuff written in a book by people who admit they don't understand what they're talking about. Your position assumes the Bible is an accurate reflection of DF history or a perfect recording of the intent of Heaven rather than something humans wrote.
At that point there's no reason for him to have the mantle of any of the judeo Islamic Christian God if that's true. That's not people groping at an elephant and trying to construe a full image by feel. That's just everyone groping at air and imagining things which at which point why bother. There has to be some level of Truth to these things otherwise why bother using shards of the cross in the Holy swords why is there any power to the Shroud of Turin why is there any power to Holy symbols involving God. Why are the denarians a thing.

If you can trust no biblical Source about God because at that point you can't trust the good things either we're just left with no image on what God is actually about why bother having God be any type of relation to any faction in setting.

I'm not assuming that the biblical stories are perfectly accurate but you really don't get any more simple than did Uriel an Angel mentioned by name in this particular biblical story kill all the firstborns of Egypt and Dresden Files would have us believe that yes he did do that.
Uriel of the Bible can pound sand; the Uriel of the Dresden Files plays poker with the Devil for the fate of the world and still has the compassion in his heart to break cycles of abuse no one would fault him for leaving alone.
Angels aren't human and that's particularly true in Dresden Files being a being of infinite compassion does not actually prevent you from being a being capable of slaying an infinite number of people. Uriel can grimace and have his heart ache for the apostles of the denarians that he killed when they stormed Michael's house he still killed them.
It's a common practice because it's an excuse to justify excesses among the powerful.
Okay that's fine but the entire Narrative of the 10,000 is that they have lost that authority/position it's not really a justification of anything when it's we must reclaim this thing that we used to have and we do that by following these Dharmic Pathways that the people that created us set out for us.
I was being hyperbolic, but you get the point. Also, being good enough to shake a curse doesn't mean you can fistfight the person who cast it.

I'm not trying to argue that they should abandon their paths or something. Nor that they can't teach valuable lessons or a source of wisdom. I'm arguing with the idea that they've got implicit moral authority as a result of their enlightenment and the right to do what they want because heaven gave them a hall pass. Or at least that if they have a hall pass it wasn't signed by Heaven Heaven.

The original context of this discussion is Acolyte arguing someone like a Thrashing Dragon high on supernatural sadomasochism is totally acceptable to the entities using fantastic cosmic power to help mundane people escape alcoholism. Moreover, that they're so cool with it that if the Jade in question just gets good enough at torture they'll receive a thumbs up and job offer.

I contend this should never have been the case for the real deal creator in the Dresden Files and even if it was it sure as shit shouldn't be now.
At this point it doesn't matter if it was Heaven heaven. Whoever has laid the curse whether they were functionaries put forward by God or Angels or actual gods at one point, it doesn't matter. What matters is that following the pads of Dharma relieves the curse.

Dharma is very specifically not used to has a justification for anything other than you grow more powerful less inured by the curse of being one of the 10,000 and eventually at a certain point the curse damn near abates. The fact that following these paths do Grant phenomenal cosmic power directly in line with how the Elder of the 10,000 remember them being able to manifest said power as well as send request to whatever their Heaven is and receive responses means that unless you're just going to completely disregard their own story or pretend like half of their disciplines don't exist means that someone on high in a Divine hierarchy is granting them remit.

You can say it's using Enlightenment to justify excesses but that doesn't makes sense considering devil tigers and thrashing dragons are just two of the 10 maybe 12 paths there are. They all Grant the same benefit or benefits.
I am going to say this much about the place of Jades in the world because it's not a spoiler since it's something Molly sensed when meeting Nergui, there's an odd familiarity with how they use the Dragonlines
Though it could literally just be that God it made an oopsy. He made a process similar enough to exaltations that when he saw them getting indolent and complacent in their position he cursed them and probably destroyed the trials and then they just reappeared in the afterlife because; no you don't get to take back making Divine champions you gave them remit over the Earth of the Middle Kingdom you gave the disciplines and the enlightenment the supernatural energy and the ability to grow over time you get to deal with your Divine champions.

In that case all of the Dharma are literally just resonance with their makers essence. Like all of the exalted and God did make hell that's not a previous feature or anything like that tacked on later he did just do that so the devils and the thrashing dragons are still God's fault but just in his more wrathful aspect.
 
Lydia's seems the most interesting, since I like her character a lot but Michael's seems the most important so I gotta vote pragmatically.. Not that seeing it would change anything but it would inform our urgency one way or the other.
[X] Sword Against a New Foe (Michael interlude)
 
[X] New Responsibilities (Lydia interlude)

I want to see how Lydia is dealing with Wraith the Oblivion because that particular part of the Old World of Darkness kept the most of it's Exalted ideas.

Edit: Forgot to reply to this bit of thoughtlessness in the thread:

I mean, just to name a well known and relatively benign example that's only lightly fudged by people; the Bible gives a good timeline for when Jesus is born because it references Roman taxation/census stuff. Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem in the first place to do something approximating the old school version of filing your tax returns.

This is not something which happens in the dead of winter, because that'd be an insane hardship for travelers. The Catholic Church moved Christmas to December as part of an effort to absorb and supplant pagan traditions. Just like how they rebranded cultural heroes and gods into saints in many places to make it easier for people to adapt.

Winter in the Middle East has temperatures of 15-25 C. I don't know enough about this particular topic in the Bible to argue it, but traveling during the dead of winter in the Middle East where temperatures are usually on par with Spring or Autumn in more moderate climates and when rains are the most frequent meaning the risk of dying from thirst is minimal honestly makes the most sense.
 
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[X] Sword Against a New Foe (Michael interlude)

So, a hostile exalt... That's problematic. Very problematic. Especially because if they are killed, their exaltation just jumps ship to the next one.
 
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