Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

At that point there's no reason for him to have the mantle of any of the judeo Islamic Christian God if that's true. That's not people groping at an elephant and trying to construe a full image by feel. That's just everyone groping at air and imagining things which at which point why bother. There has to be some level of Truth to these things otherwise why bother using shards of the cross in the Holy swords why is there any power to the Shroud of Turin why is there any power to Holy symbols involving God. Why are the denarians a thing.
The Denarians aren't in biblical canon either, the setting does a lot of stuff with modifying the source material.


Angels aren't human and that's particularly true in Dresden Files being a being of infinite compassion does not actually prevent you from being a being capable of slaying an infinite number of people. Uriel can grimace and have his heart ache for the apostles of the denarians that he killed when they stormed Michael's house he still killed them.
Perhaps, but if so there must be a lot of qualification around it that wouldn't apply to say approving of the Jades' excesses.


Okay that's fine but the entire Narrative of the 10,000 is that they have lost that authority/position it's not really a justification of anything when it's we must reclaim this thing that we used to have and we do that by following these Dharmic Pathways that the people that created us set out for us.
The jades made the paths, in particular a powerful philosopher named Xue. The Jades were cursed for abusing people and then created an elaborate set of philosophies that said Heaven thought they should seek redemption by committing them even more.

I'm not sure what conversation you're having, but we're talking about the relationship between the Jades and the entity behind Heaven. About if they approve of and actively support their excesses on the path of power. If some lower power on the totem pole did all this or it happened in a less deliberate way that absolutely matters. "but dharma works so they must be right" is a ridiculous argument because the power itself isn't proof of what we're arguing about.


Winter in the Middle East has temperatures of 15-25 C. I don't know enough about this particular topic in the Bible to argue it, but traveling during the dead of winter in the Middle East where temperatures are usually on par with Spring or Autumn in more moderate climates and when rains are the most frequent meaning the risk of dying from thirst is minimal honestly makes the most sense.
The Romans didn't have localized census cycles.
 
The Romans didn't have localized census cycles.

OK I've ended up hurting my mind digging this up:

Article:
Scholars point out that there was no single census of the entire Roman Empire under Augustus and the Romans did not directly tax client kingdoms; further, no Roman census required that people travel from their own homes to those of their ancestors. A census of Judaea would not have affected Joseph and his family, who lived in Galilee under a different ruler; the revolt of Judas of Galilee suggests that Rome's direct taxation of Judaea was new at the time.[17] Catholic priest and biblical scholar Raymond E. Brown postulates that Judas's place of origin may have led the author of Luke to think that Galilee was subject to the census.[18][e] Brown also points out that in the Acts of the Apostles, Luke the Evangelist (the traditional author of both books) dates Judas's census-incited revolt as following the rebellion of Theudas, which took place four decades later.[18][f][g]


Apparently most scholars agree that the census was a literary device and not a historical fact. Which means that this example you made:

I mean, just to name a well known and relatively benign example that's only lightly fudged by people; the Bible gives a good timeline for when Jesus is born because it references Roman taxation/census stuff. Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem in the first place to do something approximating the old school version of filing your tax returns.

This is not something which happens in the dead of winter, because that'd be an insane hardship for travelers. The Catholic Church moved Christmas to December as part of an effort to absorb and supplant pagan traditions. Just like how they rebranded cultural heroes and gods into saints in many places to make it easier for people to adapt.

is just outright factually false.
 
The Denarians aren't in biblical canon either, the setting does a lot of stuff with modifying the source material.

Perhaps, but if so there must be a lot of qualification around it that wouldn't apply to say approving of the Jades' excesses.
Yeah I really don't think there needs to be much qualification around it Yahweh is a dick. The god of the Israelites is a monster for a thousand different reasons if he made the 10,000 when he was that deity still that I can fully believe that them drawing on the Dharma paths still draw on that portion of God that still exist.

I can fully straight up believe that Uriel was just ordered to kill all the first borns of Egypt and as a being without free will he just does no matter how much it makes his heartache no matter how much he feels compassion for the children of Egypt. God has commanded his light to snuff out all of the firstborns of Egypt and the fire of God obeys.
The jades made the paths, in particular a powerful philosopher named Xue. The Jades were cursed for abusing people and then created an elaborate set of philosophies that said Heaven thought they should seek redemption by committing them even more.
Still not squaring the circle of hey this makes the curse of God abate. This is like calling Golconda a justification when it literally does the thing that it was set out to do. That is also not with the thrashing dragons and the devil Tigers do it very least not exclusively and I think you know that and you're choosing to call them excesses when they are very specifically structured Paths of thoughts and actions that exist to facilitate a specific end.
I'm not sure what conversation you're having, but we're talking about the relationship between the Jades and the entity behind Heaven. About if they approve of and actively support their excesses on the path of power. If some lower power on the totem pole did all this or it happened in a less deliberate way that absolutely matters. "but dharma works so they must be right" is a ridiculous argument because the power itself isn't proof of what we're arguing about.
Yeah I'm also not sure what you're trying to say. Dharma paths maybe holdovers maybe just jacking directly into the few systems of Heaven on Earth and that's why it works like that and as Dharma increases so does the ability of the 10,000 who once had permissions to access those systems but either way you're claiming that God wouldn't make a system where thousands suffered just because and that's just obviously not true he doesn't matter if you're talking New World Testament because at this Perpetual suffering systems are just kind of reality as a whole.

You're trying to tell me the deity that created a pit of eternal torment that looked like the Flaming pit of Gahenna, that plays fuck fuck games with the silver pieces Who Kill God knows how many people just Aunduriel and Nick have a death toll literally in the Millions and you accept me to believe that he cares about any type of morality sure. I'm Also willing to buy a bridge in Tacoma.

I don't think anyone argued the moral rightness of the dharmac paths but the effectiveness and their ability to literally relieve the curse put on the Wan Kuei some methodology of Heaven is invoked in relieving the curse.

Though at this point we're just talking in circles you think it's excesses I think it's either outdated systems or just systems that were just never taken out because they enable free will and you think that they're just wrong and somehow this methodology of gaining power despite being functionally identical to every other dharmic path in how they affect the curse is a justification of excess. We're just talking past each other at this point.
 
Last edited:
I stand corrected then. I should have verified that factoid before attempting to use it to prove a point.
Don't worry it's a mistake most people make the time line of the Jesus story in reference to recorded historical events is clear evidence that Luke was written well after the fact. Well if the fact that Luke copied Mark word for word constantly wasn't enough.

Herod the Great's Reign: Herod the Great, a Roman client king of Judea, ruled from approximately 37 BC to 4 BC.

Census: A Roman census, which is believed to have taken place around 6 or 7 AD, is mentioned in the New Testament as the reason for Mary and Joseph traveling to Bethlehem.

Ten years apart yet Luke has both events take place at Jesus's birth.
 
Last edited:
Arc 15 Interlude 18: Whence Black Waters Flow New
Whence Black Waters Flow

14th of March 2007 A.D.

Dhaka, Bangladesh

It is not that Michael had never worked with a vampire, thanks to Harry he had and several times, but the White Court were for all their hunger, living breathing beings and Thomas at least was young enough that his experience was not so remote from Michael's own, he might not approve of how he lived his life he understood it, because of course he had a life to live. Nergui on the other hand did not stop when street vectors offered him a key chain, a bottle of counterfeit perfume or a good luck charm to keep the dark spirits away, the irony, he simply swept through like a dark omen letting the long shadow streaking ahead clear the path and even in those parts of the city where two armed men walking with a purpose did not pass unnoticed he simply demanded that the world give way. And when it would not do so simply at the glint of steel in his eyes he commanded... attempted to at least, until Michael bid him stop.

Stop he had not not without complaint. 'Like having a Crane overhead,' he had said shortly before to methods less esoteric, but no less brutal in their directness. It was a cult he argued, the slip Michael managed to recover 'had the touch of Faith' as though Faith was a scent that his dead nostrils could assay. It reminded him of Harry in away, with his insistence that Faith was a kind of magic, or that magic was something one could have faith in, but Harry had never given him the impression that he might try to bottle holiness and put it on a shelf to trade for some favors with an oni given half the chance.

Either way the reasoning he had given for why they should plumb the depths of Dhaka's cramped and labyrinthine slums had been a good one, cults tend to recruit from among those who have very little that they can hold in their hands and so can be swayed to mortgage that which is infinitely valuable. The distance was not so great from being hired on to a company and invited to a 'spiritual retreat' on which that job would hang and from there to being pressured into the kind of rites that would... solidify loyalty.

It would always sicken him to his stomach to think of it and Michael thanked God for that small mercy as he listened to a woman elderly woman, all but hidden behind a veil speak of the actions of her middle son and her brother, how they had grown distant, secret then angry. How the last time she had spoken with her son she had been drinking heavily even though he never drank and had claimed in response to her tears that never seeing or hearing of her would be safest for her.

She had given them a name at least, the Penitents of the Hollow Thorn and with that name to open the way Michael's contacts in the church had almost instantly pulled up an address, though that was for the Bashundhara City Shopping Mall.

"At the very least I won't be able to miss them for the pounding of so many heartbeats in my skull," the complaint had a less agrieved tone to it, which Michael was starting to grasp was about as cheerful as Nergui ever got. "Tell me Michael son of Carpenters how skilled are you in disguising your face and nature?"

The knight thought about the line of deathly shudders the vampire had drawn across the city. Probably better than you are.

***​

How the cult had managed to get approval to crowd into the underground parking lot of the all Michael didn't know, but there was something about the waight of the air, the fliker of lights whose radiance seemed to fall short of where it should have been, the tight-lipped eager faces of people streeming in that put Michael's teeth on edge. More than once he was passed by a lanky boy maybe of an age with Mathew moving through asking for 'donations' and all he could think about was how easy he would be to turn that child into a hostage. Everyone here was basically a hostage.

"I dislike this," the voice was soft enough that he shouldn't have been able to hear it and yet he did.

Unsure if he could match the trick Michael just tipped his head.

"This is moving too quickly, not at all like the slow and steady recruiting practices of before, as stones who had been rolling slowly down an incline tumble over a cliff face."

All the lights went suddenly out... yet out in front on the makeshit stage a man walked wearing darkness neaten like steel, seen by all not because it was light, but because the blackness that enfolded him was so much deeper than any the mortal eye had been made to behold.

"And that," Michael said tonelessly. "Would be why."

OOC: For the record the reason why Nergui is so out of sorts compared to when he was accompanying Molly is that the presence of an infernal is a lot more pleasant to an Elder of the Wan Kuei than one of the Swords, Michael just chalked it down to 'miserable because he's undead'. Kind of true but with extra steps
 
Welp an Abyssal with a cult that had Michael show up to team up with an Elder Vampire. That's not gonna end well. If they can't deal with him immediately, we'll need to assassinate him ASAP to prevent him from building up.

Time for the Wyld Hunt 2: Electric Boogaloo.
 
It's a pity that my optimism was wrong. But I wonder what exactly needs to be stopped here and why exactly here. Maybe he really is a cultist of the Apocalypse? It's hard to say for sure yet. But I personally like the interaction between Nergui and Michael
 
Well, there is literally no way an Exalt fresh out of Chargen can deal with Nergui and Michael in a fair fight.
And the Sword doesn't allow unfair ones.

I mean, you could probably build something to oneshot even powerful enemies right from the start with some decent minmaxing, but that doesn't help you when you are low on fuel afterwards and the other guy is still standing.
 
It's a pity that my optimism was wrong. But I wonder what exactly needs to be stopped here and why exactly here. Maybe he really is a cultist of the Apocalypse? It's hard to say for sure yet. But I personally like the interaction between Nergui and Michael
At the very least he should be able to call in Walkers via CCG. I'll look through the abyssal charmset in an hour to see what other apocalyptic threats there are.

And we might have to deal with the next abyssal chosen by this shard. Neither Michael nor Nergul should have the ability to contain the shard after dealing with the host.
 
It's a pity that my optimism was wrong. But I wonder what exactly needs to be stopped here and why exactly here. Maybe he really is a cultist of the Apocalypse? It's hard to say for sure yet. But I personally like the interaction between Nergui and Michael
Even if he's unconnected to any existing apocalypse faction he could still be the sort of psycho that the white god wants handled before he gets off the ground. Especially if he took the nastier Abyssal charms for mutilating minds and souls.

Imagine what might happen if someone already running a cult for their own benefit exalted as a super death priest.
 
Welp an Abyssal with a cult that had Michael show up to team up with an Elder Vampire. That's not gonna end well. If they can't deal with him immediately, we'll need to assassinate him ASAP to prevent him from building up.

Time for the Wyld Hunt 2: Electric Boogaloo.
If that happens I don't care if it's an exaggeration, I'm going to vote to deploy a real army and a constant barrage of the worst of our magical artillery on him, we're going to put the Wlyd hunts to shame.

The Abyssals, like the Infernals, can be real cockroaches and one of the Pale Knights deserves no less.
 
Last edited:
Oooh. We might get our hands on an exaltation to work on! If the abyssal is genuinly evil, i see no reason not to get some loot later.
I imagine our soulpeople would love to research it.


I wonder how they are feeling with everything? They have access to the internet , reports from our agents, and places for new experiments.
I Wonder what rippleeffects the contact had.

Its not been that long, and us being there had bigger effects i imagine, i would still love an interlude.


Or an omake prompt.
 
We had Silver Phantom in the Sanctuary already. There were no issues.
When Grape said earlier that DemonReach should be able to hold an Exaltation because it's already holding several Exalts you argued against it. This seems inconsistent from you. Do you think there is a difference between containing an Exaltation by itself and one that's attached to someone or not?
 
When Grape said earlier that DemonReach should be able to hold an Exaltation because it's already holding several Exalts you argued against it. This seems inconsistent from you. Do you think there is a difference between containing an Exaltation by itself and one that's attached to someone or not?
I was commenting about the effect of having another exaltation being present inside Sanctuary, not our capability to hold it. So far the evidence, both in-story, and canon E2 lore, suggest that there should be no issue if an exaltation was present in our worldbody, assuming it functions as a primordial worldbody.

There is a difference, of course, in trying to contain an exaltation and trying to hold an exalt.
 
Well, there is literally no way an Exalt fresh out of Chargen can deal with Nergui and Michael in a fair fight.
And the Sword doesn't allow unfair ones.

I mean, you could probably build something to oneshot even powerful enemies right from the start with some decent minmaxing, but that doesn't help you when you are low on fuel afterwards and the other guy is still standing.

It should be noted they can't fight him here, too many potential hostages.
 
I was commenting about the effect of having another exaltation being present inside Sanctuary, not our capability to hold it. So far the evidence, both in-story, and canon E2 lore, suggest that there should be no issue if an exaltation was present in our worldbody, assuming it functions as a primordial worldbody.

There is a difference, of course, in trying to contain an exaltation and trying to hold an exalt.
Thats the same thing? If it's in Sanctuary then we are holding it in our soul. The post I responded to was about having it studied, which would require that we hold and stop it from bonding to someone.
 
Last edited:
I mean, you could probably build something to oneshot even powerful enemies right from the start with some decent minmaxing, but that doesn't help you when you are low on fuel afterwards and the other guy is still standing.
Also such a maximin build would have trouble managing a cult like this. What if the Abyssal uses the cult as his chosen weapon?

Actually what sort of social charms do Abssyals even get?
 
When Grape said earlier that DemonReach should be able to hold an Exaltation because it's already holding several Exalts you argued against it. This seems inconsistent from you. Do you think there is a difference between containing an Exaltation by itself and one that's attached to someone or not?
I think it was me who did that. I argued that exultations by themselves require a special equipment to hold that the exalted as physical beings do not. Now once captured if they're conscious the exalt that can be way slippier than the exaltations themselves but the trouble in Catching exaltations he's in actually doing so not holding them once you've done so.
She is Exalt, not a Exaltation
She by virtue of what the exalted specifically the celestial exalted are does kind of count because the exaltation becomes a part of the soul of the being and having an extra bit of Soul flying around inside of a world body is kind of not particularly a problem as long as we don't try to do something like digest it with the wheel I imagine.
Actually what sort of social charms do Abssyals even get?
The same as every other exalt which is to say a Excellency a little bit of a personal mind of control charms and some Minion makers but no like actual big social charms. Technically infernals are the ones with the largest talk to a group of people ones and that's technically an Excellency over loudspeaker.
 
Back
Top