Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
So, some thoughts on how Midnight Abyssal charms might be broken / apocalyptic:
1) Command the Dead (also applies to Lydia) may be very dangerous if the abyssal has an access to, for example, a corpse of a god, or one of the Elemental Dragons
2) Haunting Inflection Trick. Depending on what "the Abyssal's words become impossible to ignore" means, this may be broken, if it also applies to prayer. If so, this may perhaps be used to, for example, wake up some of the Neverborn
3) Lesser Horrors Scorned makes an abyssal a danger to any being with intellectus. Possibly makes an abyssal an ongoing attack on all psychopomps, and other beings that would involuntarily probe the abyssal's soul
4) Charnel Emperor Stance might allow the Abyssal to control denarians, including into breaking the Rules and manipulate the whole Heaven-Hell game balance. Willpower drain an imprisoned denarian and a mortal, combine the two, have the denarian break the rules in your favor, tipping the scale towards Heaven
5) Lies that Tell Themselves. Oh boy. "5+ successes: The subject can be given an entirely new history.". Rewrite the target into a completely new person. If the Abyssal has this, and is actively using it, this may be the reason for Michael to be sent.

Also, depending on how this works, I would use it for backups and infiltration. I'd rewrite people into "a copy of myself with access to all of the memories of the victim" and start infiltrating structures of various organizations.

Not sure what else, but I am guessing this is an intervention before mass violations of Free Will.
BoredMan said:
Thats the same thing? If it's in Sanctuary then we are holding it in our soul. The post I responded to was about having it studied, which would require that we hold and stop it from bonding to someone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I feel that there are two separate issues here:
1) The effect of another exaltation being present in our worldbody. For example, we know that the mere presence of a coin would cause us suffering. So far, the evidence points to exalts and likely exaltations themselves being present inside out worldbody not having any negative effects by their mere presence
2) What we would need to do in order to keep the exaltation from escaping. That's the matter of capability. Whether we can do this without suffering is a question I am not prepared to answer. I would like to point out that our subjects should be eligible for exaltation. And having a Sanctuary citizen as a midnight might be interesting.
 
Degorium said:
I think it was me who did that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't know if you did but I'm referring to a conversation Grape and Yog had.

Yog said:
1) The effect of another exaltation being present in our worldbody. For example, we know that the mere presence of a coin would cause us suffering. So far, the evidence points to exalts and likely exaltations themselves being present inside out worldbody not having any negative effects by their mere presence
2) What we would need to do in order to keep the exaltation from escaping. That's the matter of capability. Whether we can do this without suffering is a question I am not prepared to answer. I would like to point out that our subjects should be eligible for exaltation. And having a Sanctuary citizen as a midnight might be interesting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So you don't really see a difference between holding an Exaltation and an Exalt being present. Your statements towards Grape on DemonReach are odd then. In any case I do see a difference between keeping an Exaltation from bonding to someone by putting it in another Exaltation for the sake of study and an Exalt simply being present.
 
Last edited:
BoredMan said:
So you don't really see a difference between holding an Exaltation and an Exalt being present. Your statements towards Grape on DemonReach are odd then. In any case I do see a difference between keeping an Exaltation from bonding to someone by putting it in another Exaltation for the sake of study and an Exalt simply being present.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In terms of our or Demonreach's ability to hold an exaltation in place, there is a difference between trying to hold a bonded and unbonded exaltation. It's also possible that there's a also difference in terms of what effect having an exaltation being present inside our worldbody would have between the exaltation present being a bonded or an unbonded one. However, lack of any noticeable effects from having an exalt being present in our worldbody is evidence, but not proof, that the exaltation, whether bonded or unbonded to a human host, will have no detrimental effects on us, if it was placed within our worldbody. This theory is also supported by a large quantity of canon E2 lore.
 
Yog said:
However, lack of any noticeable effects from having an exalt being present in our worldbody is evidence, but not proof, that the exaltation, whether bonded or unbonded to a human host, will have no detrimental effects on us, if it was placed within our worldbody. This theory is also supported by a large quantity of canon E2 lore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Right, so then you'd also see that as evidence but not proof in regards to DR since it has met that same standard with more Exalts than us and we aren't actually a primordial. Have you changed your mind on Demonreach in this sense?
 
Yog said:
2) What we would need to do in order to keep the exaltation from escaping. That's the matter of capability. Whether we can do this without suffering is a question I am not prepared to answer. I would like to point out that our subjects should be eligible for exaltation. And having a Sanctuary citizen as a midnight might be interesting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I doubt that people who cannot die are able to become exalts of death. They'd probably have to be outside of the FCF to catch the shard's attention.

Also, keeping one in place is really really hard and we have no idea how to do it.
 
BoredMan said:
I think you just triggered Degorium with this one.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I've been sitting on a quote since the release of the abyssals people have been just ignoring the fact that magic in a deeply magical setting like both exalted and Dresden files is important and God damn it come this next XP vote they're still going to ignore it and then say things like this and it's going to drive me actually insane.

DragonParadox said:
Since I know you guys will ask, there is no way you could have interfered with the exaltations, while a sufficiently powerful and prepared Sorcerer can attempt to interact with them Molly did not know any applicable spells she did not have any relevant artifacts on her and also she was literally standing right above the Tomb of the Neverborn who cast them up and was speeding up your perception of time in its presence so you could even see them. You only got one question on the Exaltations because they were only in sight for one turn from Molly's PoV.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was crazy once.
 
I have said this before, but I think that the reason having a coin in our kingdom would be uncomfortable is because they are a powerful earthbound demon whose restrictions don't apply in our world.

So just using the rules world wide earthquakes and the like.
 
BoredMan said:
I think you just triggered Degorium with this one..
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@Degorium keeps talking about them being easier to hold than to catch, but the examples we have of that are channeling some really high level first age shit to basically turn them off for a bit.

Setting aside the other arguments we've had on this and assuming that it's possible in principle for a moment; we are not a high first age god, primordial, or exalt with deep knowledge of how the shards work. We don't have access to special tools/admin rights or a vulnerable period where the exaltations are on standby.

Which means that unless we learn all that lore we can't begin to make those tools or really understand how to use them. Molly doesn't even know where to start in the first place because she doesn't know the history of the setting like we do.

That in turn suggests that the exaltation is going to fight us and keep fighting us, because we're just some random asshole as far as it's concerned. That means stuff like what we saw during Molly's exaltation happening as long as the thing is capable of fighting. Which is a tricky thing to stop because it's impossible to damage the damn things.
 
BoredMan said:
Right, so then you'd also see that as evidence but not proof in regards to DR since it has met that same standard with more Exalts than us and we aren't actually a primordial. Have you changed your mind on Demonreach in this sense?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, why would I? The ability to contain an exaltation against its will and the property of suffering ill effects from an exaltation being present are two completely different things.
BronzeTongue said:
I doubt that people who cannot die are able to become exalts of death. They'd probably have to be outside of the FCF to catch the shard's attention.

Also, keeping one in place is really really hard and we have no idea how to do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's... arguable. As I understand it, reincarnation is also a thing on Earth. In a way reincarnation (even if it couldn't carry memories) was a thing in First Age Creation too. Our people die. They just come back. Death is not permanent. And, even if that doesn't count, there are those who do die permanently.
Degorium said:
I've been sitting on a quote since the release of the abyssals people have been just ignoring the fact that magic in a deeply magical setting like both exalted and Dresden files is important and God damn it come this next XP vote they're still going to ignore it and then say things like this and it's going to drive me actually insane.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We need to buy more Ancient Sorcery if we want to play with exaltations, yes. This quote is relevant:
Yog said:
Do we have a way to direct the exaltation to anyone? Because I have half a mind to just immediately go grab Murphy. Or Charity, actually - she might be up to it by now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
DragonParadox said:
that is something that can be done with Ancient Sorcery, but not by a Sorceress with two spells to her name.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In E2 having five spells was a sign of mastery and a prerequisite needed to buy Absorption - a charmlike permanent effect that came in one of three varieties:
DEVONIAN , SALINAN OR SILURIAN ABSORPTION
Cost: —; Mins: Occult 5, one other Ability 3, Essence 5;
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, 5+ spells
Salinan: A Salinan master demonstrates belief that
everyone is an individual thought in a universal conscious-
ness, and that all Essence fl ows most freely in its natural
state. Such characters can see meaning and connections in
the most surprising things. A Salinan master requires at least
Awareness 3 to represent her sensitivity to Creation.
• Understanding that her self is simultaneously hers
alone and part of Creation's own nonlocal consciousness,
the Salinan master can use Emerald Countermagic
against any unnatural mental influence, as long as it is
backed by an Essence or Artifact rating no higher than
half her own (round up).
• A Salinan master can pull information from
nowhere (or maybe from the Salinan Working). When-
ever his player rolls a threshold of five successes on any
Perception or Intelligence roll, the Storyteller imparts
a piece of relevant, important information.
• Everything is connected to everything else. A
Salinan master can apply Creation's wholeness to arcane
links. She can substitute one arcane link for any other
to the same subject, no matter what a spell's description
says. (She could use a lock of a victim's hair, for instance,
rather than the required drop of his blood.) What's
more, with three different arcane links to a person or
place, she can use them to target any spell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Note how Salian Absorption is similar to our Crown effect.

We currently have three Ancient Sorcery spells. I very much want to get two more at least. The two most relevant ones are Emerald Spirit Binding, and Argent Miracle Binding. For abyssals, Iron Shade Binding might also be relevant. Those are pretty much all the canon spells that might be relevant to designing a custom ritual to bind an exaltation.
 
Yog said:
That's... arguable. As I understand it, reincarnation is also a thing on Earth. In a way reincarnation (even if it couldn't carry memories) was a thing in First Age Creation too. Our people die. They just come back. Death is not permanent. And, even if that doesn't count, there are those who do die permanently.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Reincarnation on Earth and what we've got cooking are not really the same at all. We cooked it up to make people functionally immortal; they don't get reborn in a new life, they pick up right where they left off.

It's so different that necromancy isn't possible in our realm because souls don't behave the same way when subject to the wheel.

Given the origins of necromancy that suggests a profound distance between Molly's soul and the conceptual profile of the Abyssals.
 
BronzeTongue said:
we have of that are channeling some really high level first age shit to basically turn them off for a bit.

Setting aside the other arguments we've had on this and assuming that it's possible in principle for a moment; we are not a high first age god, primordial, or exalt with deep knowledge of how the shards work. We don't have access to special tools/admin rights or a vulnerable period where the exaltations are on standby.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is pretty much just not true. The starborn caught them as they were attempting to leave lyteks cabinet and when they're captured by the deathlords they're still active and half of them Escape being captured at no point are they inactive.

At this point having any level of knowledge capable of affecting exaltations would be good at the moment we're just incapable of affecting ambient magical energy or messing with magical energy in general which makes it impossible to interact with exaltations for study or otherwise we also don't have any magical materials that might make capture possible such as the Jade prison and the monstrances.
BronzeTongue said:
That in turn suggests that the exaltation is going to fight us and keep fighting us, because we're just some random asshole as far as it's concerned.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The exaltations are powerful but they're not active actors if you are capable of capturing one you can hold one because inherently you've already done the hard part. Before you make any primordial War argument just no the primordials weren't capable of devising a method to capture them inherently the only beings that have ever successfully captured exaltations are exalted (Sidereal) or their ghosts (Solar Deathlords) and the ghosts were only half successful when they attempted it.
BronzeTongue said:
That means stuff like what we saw during Molly's exaltation happening as long as the thing is capable of fighting. Which is a tricky thing to stop because it's impossible to damage the damn things.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Exaltations the objects are different from exaltations the event and the latter has way more caveats and abilities than the former.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Reincarnation on Earth and what we've got cooking are not really the same at all. We cooked it up to make people functionally immortal; they don't get reborn in a new life, they pick up right where they left off.

It's so different that necromancy isn't possible in our realm because souls don't behave the same way when subject to the wheel.

Given the origins of necromancy that suggests a profound distance between Molly's soul and the conceptual profile of the Abyssals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We know, from Uriel's mouth directly, that when people die in our world in a way that isn't subject to the Wheel, they face the same afterafterlife as everyone else. That was stated directly. We know, from Lydia's insight, that our worldbody is an afterlife to which souls of the departed might be directed. We know, from what happened to the god we rescued, that Earth-originated beings can pass through the Wheel without fundamentally changing. The only question is whether the temporary death in our kingdom counts as death for the abyssal shard. I think it does, but cannot be sure.
 
Degorium said:
This is pretty much just not true. The starborn caught them as they were attempting to leave lyteks cabinet and when they're captured by the deathlords they're still active and half of them Escape being captured at no point are they inactive.

At this point having any level of knowledge capable of affecting exaltations would be good at the moment we're just incapable of affecting ambient magical energy or messing with magical energy in general which makes it impossible to interact with exaltations for study or otherwise we also don't have any magical materials that might make capture possible such as the Jade prison and the monstrances.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Exalts of fate inside Lyteks workshop are not proof we can catch them in full host seeking mode in the bombed out husk of a bombed out husk of creation. Moreover, the Abyssals were made by stealing the deactivated exaltations from the Jade prison, changing them, then turning them back on. Thereafter they were set to serve a different master and didn't need to be recaptured after every use.

The ones that escaped got out because they fucked up and basically spilled a bunch while in the process of stealing them. Which set them off like unstable explosives because they were no longer in their storage space.

These ones are free in the world right now. Any tactic for capturing them needs a justification for why say Theion couldn't have done it after killing a bunch of solars during the war.
Degorium said:
The exaltations are powerful but they're not active actors if you are capable of capturing one you can hold one because inherently you've already done the hard part. Before you make any primordial War argument just no the primordials weren't capable of devising a method to capture them inherently the only beings that have ever successfully captured exaltations are exalted (Sidereal) or their ghosts (Solar Deathlords) and the ghosts were only half successful when they attempted it
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The primordials invented all of this stuff, Autobot built the containment system that came with the original packaging. Even if you set that aside demonstrating that some people did it doesn't automatically imply that they were the only sort of people who could make it happen purely because of their nature. Everyone we see pull this stuff does it when the exaltations are vulnerable and not abroad in the world.

That's why the Sidreals had the Wyld hunt as a going concern instead of building a second jade prison and filling it with the 50 who didn't get caught. Despite having some of the most complete knowledge of the shards' function once the gods locked them out of the workshop the solars were reset in they couldn't stop them from going home and getting sent forth again.

Holding an exaltation that has woken up is holding a bomb that is actively going off and is going to keep going off unless you have the admin credentials or an opportunity to tinker with it before it's active again.

Degorium said:
Exaltations the objects are different from exaltations the event and the latter has way more caveats and abilities than the former
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Go back and read the author notes from Molly's exaltation, that was the shard doing all of that in preparation to get going.

Also, go look back at the stuff around the Abyssal shards getting loose. We only had the opportunity to look at them and to have worked magic on the shards if we had the knowledge because a primordial slowed down time to let us see them. Otherwise we could have been standing there with Autobot's maintenance manual in our hands and still wouldn't have been able to do anything.
 
Yog said:
We know, from Uriel's mouth directly, that when people die in our world in a way that isn't subject to the Wheel, they face the same afterafterlife as everyone else. That was stated directly. We know, from Lydia's insight, that our worldbody is an afterlife to which souls of the departed might be directed. We know, from what happened to the god we rescued, that Earth-originated beings can pass through the Wheel without fundamentally changing. The only question is whether the temporary death in our kingdom counts as death for the abyssal shard. I think it does, but cannot be sure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population, and the ones it does apply to are the ones least like the Abyssals.
Yog said:
What does that even mean? As far as I know, exaltations were never "deactivated", and the moment they were able to escape Jade Prison, they did so and went on to seek out solars, no activation necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
When Lytek get the shards back they sit in a box until he cleans them up and releases them back into the world to seek hosts. Perhaps deactivated is a strong term for it, but the shards have a mode where they are not actively hunting for someone to exalt and will allow themselves to be manipulated which they can be induced to enter.

Exploiting this is why the Sidereals needed access to his workshop to do what they did. The shards just don't appear to fail safe because autobot is the memetic shotgun wizard. You drop one off your workbench and it goes off like a bottle of pure nitroglycerin.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Moreover, the Abyssals were made by stealing the deactivated exaltations from the Jade prison, changing them, then turning them back on
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean I do have the books that's just not true the Giant clawed Behemoth that they used to break open the Jade prison and steal the shards only captures half of them and the other ones just fly away they're active the entire time
MoEP:Abyssals pg.26 said:
ONE LAST STUMBLE
To breach the Jade Prison, the Deathlords began with the monstrous, semi-preserved carcass of a behemoth they
dredged from the depths of the Western Ocean. They equipped it with tremendous claws, an armored tail and eyes that could not only see in the black depths but report what they saw in perfect detail. Between its jaws, like baleen in a whale's mouth, the Deathlords fixed hundreds of spiked chains built from the designs the Yozis had provided as a show of good faith. The Deathlords animated this hideous monstrosity with mighty necromancy and sent it toward its target.
It scudded along the bottom of the ocean and into the Inland Sea, where it found the Jade Prison. As its masters directed, it scooped the prison up in one claw and lifted the other as high as it could. Like expert gem-cutters, the Deathlords had calculated the exact force and placement of the blow necessary to break the prison cleanly along one facet. The trapped Essences would be able to escape a few at a time, right into the beast's waiting chains.

Just to be safe, the monster's other claw would hold the broken pieces together to regulate the flow of escapees.That was the plan, but that wasn't what happened. Maybe, the beast's claw fell at the wrong angle or with too much force. Maybe the Jade Prison wasn't constructed quite the way the Deathlords thought. Whatever the reason, the Jade Prison didn't fracture. It shattered, blinding several of the beast's eyes and destroying the claw that struck it. Exaltations fled in every direction as the beast tried to catch them in its grasping, flailing chains.

When the chains could find no more Exaltations, they retracted into the beast's maw and extruded themselves down into the Labyrinth. Altogether, the creature had snagged only about half of the Essences the prison had contained. Disgusted, the Deathlords broke off contact with the beast and took their disappointing haul to their masters.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It is only by the mechanism prepared by the deathlords that they get any at all.
BronzeTongue said:
The primordials invented all of this stuff, Autobot built the containment system that came with the original packaging. Even if you set that aside demonstrating that some people did it doesn't automatically imply that they were the only sort of people who could make it happen purely because of their nature. Everyone we see pull this stuff does it when the exaltations are vulnerable and not abroad in the world.

That's why the Sidreals had the Wyld hunt as a going concern instead of building a second jade prison and filling it with the 50 who didn't get caught. Despite having some of the most complete knowledge of the shards' function once the gods locked them out of the workshop the solars were reset in they couldn't stop them from going home and getting sent forth again.

Holding an exaltation that has woken up is holding a bomb that is actively going off and is going to keep going off unless you have the admin credentials or an opportunity to tinker with it before it's active again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A singular primordial invented all the stuff. Not them as a group.

The wild Hunt of the starborn has to do with the fact that they can't build a second Jade prison they just don't have the infrastructure anymore the magical materials the labor involved and just the number of the fellowship involved in the usurpation just isn't there anymore. There is an active gold faction that do know what they did to the last one. There are lunars who are not just going to sit back and let them try to build another one. Not to mention that the Divine hierarchy is now looking at them waiting for them to fuck up is they couldn't do the same thing even if they wanted to.

The last point is just false.
Yog said:
What does that even mean? As far as I know, exaltations were never "deactivated", and the moment they were able to escape Jade Prison, they did so and went on to seek out solars, no activation necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is correct they are described as escapees they are always active and fully anticipated to be so.
 
Last edited:
BronzeTongue said:
That doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population, and the ones it does apply to are the ones least like the Abyssals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Three things need to be true for our subjects to receive abyssal exaltations:
1) They need to have human soul structure. While we haven't done an in-depth study, I will default to the opinion that our human population is, indeed, human
2) That the non-permanent death in our kingdom is death enough for the abyssal shard to recognize it as such. I think it counts, but we'll need a further study
3) That the shard can find our worldbody and operate in it. Canon E2 information about Autochtonia suggests that, barring Seal of Eight Divinities equivalent, they should be able to do so.
BronzeTongue said:
When Lytek get the shards back they sit in a box until he cleans them up and releases them back into the world to seek hosts. Perhaps deactivated is a strong term for it, but the shards have a mode where they are not actively hunting for someone to exalt and will allow themselves to be manipulated which they can be induced to enter.

Exploiting this is why the Sidereals needed access to his workshop to do what they did. The shards just don't appear to fail safe because autobot is the memetic shotgun wizard. You drop one off your workbench and it goes off like a bottle of pure nitroglycerin.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's arguable. Lytek is a god of exaltation and can influence them a lot (like banning certain races or human species from exalting). The shards started moving immediately after Jade Prison was broken in, suggesting they were fully active while entombed.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top