I support the Settle Greenbay secondary. Finishing off that (12/15) should be some sort of bonus for having such a densely settled region. Building tall and letting our wealth spill out to the surrounding areas.
This argument about "wealth spilling out" is the exact same kind of argument, the sort that says if you do one thing, the opposite of its obvious result will happen. In actuality, if you concentrate wealth in the centre, wealth is concentrated in the centre. It does not "spill out." If you want to spread wealth across the empire, you do actually have to go out and spread that wealth across the empire. You cannot get out of putting in the work of building infrastructure (or settlements I suppose) across the empire.

To throw my piece in as the QM, while it is possible to concentrate wealth in one place and then let it spread out to overflow, that is a really inefficient and counterproductive way to spread wealth about. And that assumes that wealth can be spread about as you can't exactly spread things like walls or temples about due to them being immobile. If you want to spread wealth around, take the actions which spread it around rather than the actions which concentrate it in on place.

On the other hand, if you do want to strengthen the capital province, then by all means focus on settling it and building up its infrastructure. Just expect focusing on the capital to result in focusing on the capital and for those benefits of those to be in the capital province rather than being spread about the rest of your lands.
 
In the event that Urth is around, how likely is it that the Priests(or Elders, or Warriors) will abandon their current faction quest in lieu of holy war?
 
In the event that Urth is around, how likely is it that the Priests(or Elders, or Warriors) will abandon their current faction quest in lieu of holy war?

You don't know. Contacting the Caradysh is a Schrödinger's cat in terms of how the Arthwyd will react. You won't find out which way things will go until you open that box.
 
As far as the metal trade goes, lead is probably the least valuable. Its heavy, soft, it melts easily, its mildly poisonous and its common as dirt.

That is to say that if we wanted a lead trade we're probably better off using it up for generating Art trade value. Lead in general would be something that I don't think trade dominance in is possible at all, you could smelt lead with a campfire if you wanted.

Possibly there'd be a brief surge in value as people discover lead loaded maces and clubs, but the demand isn't anywhere close to the supply, so it'd be a relatively brief bubble on the civ scale.

That and pewter makes good art. If only you could spare the other part of the alloy
 
We should popularize lead cutlery and influence other civs to follow suit. Our Divine Blessings will keep us safe while the other civs implode from insanity and stupidity.
 
To throw my piece in as the QM, while it is possible to concentrate wealth in one place and then let it spread out to overflow, that is a really inefficient and counterproductive way to spread wealth about. And that assumes that wealth can be spread about as you can't exactly spread things like walls or temples about due to them being immobile. If you want to spread wealth around, take the actions which spread it around rather than the actions which concentrate it in on place.

On the other hand, if you do want to strengthen the capital province, then by all means focus on settling it and building up its infrastructure. Just expect focusing on the capital to result in focusing on the capital and for those benefits of those to be in the capital province rather than being spread about the rest of your lands.
by "spread/spill out" I mean "across the whole capital province" not across our whole empire. None of the outlying areas gain the benefits of the center, but we'll work on our other main-culture holdings once the center is built up.
 
Our capital province does not need more wealth and power. It's got plenty already. Our non-capital provinces, on the other hand, are lacking in those regards. Furthermore, if we did want to built up our capital province, the smartest way to go about it is to fill its temple and messenger slots first, not founding yet more settlements for Econ we already have effectively unlimited amounts of.
 
Our capital province does not need more wealth and power. It's got plenty already. Our non-capital provinces, on the other hand, are lacking in those regards. Furthermore, if we did want to built up our capital province, the smartest way to go about it is to fill its temple and messenger slots first, not founding yet more settlements for Econ we already have effectively unlimited amounts of.
Not sure on this but @Oshha, dont we get a extra secondary action if we fill up a settle land option (15/15)? just curious...
You don't know. Try it to find out. Also your Settle Land vote is improperly formatted.
Pretty sure the idea for that one is to see if 15/15 settlements in a province gives a bonus similar to how we got another Passive policy slot when Greenbay hit 12/15 more than it is about getting extra Econ.
 
We should not unlock a new megaproject in the next mid-turn. We've still got the census to do and we're not going to do two megaprojects in one turn, so best to get something else. Same situation as this turn so same course of action.

Pretty sure the idea for that one is to see if 15/15 settlements in a province gives a bonus similar to how we got another Passive policy slot when Greenbay hit 12/15 more than it is about getting extra Econ.
Hmm...if hitting 12/15 really did give us a passive then it may be worth investigating. Do you have a source for that happening?
 
We should not unlock a new megaproject in the next mid-turn. We've still got the census to do and we're not going to do two megaprojects in one turn, so best to get something else. Same situation as this turn so same course of action.
We are finishing the Waterways and could finish the Census if we either spent a MAIN action on it or flipped the Province Policy to Megaprojects.

Hmm...if hitting 12/15 really did give us a passive then it may be worth investigating. Do you have a source for that happening?
Here's another thing from Discord. It's not critical like the above thing but it's still good to know.
Andres said:
@Oshha where'd we get the extra passive policy from? And does it cost an action to use that free passive policy slot?
Oshha said:
[ Let's see...I think you got it from getting Greenbay to 12 points of settlement and I'm going to say no.
Source: You
 
Alright, might be something we want to do next turn.

We are finishing the Waterways and could finish the Census if we either spent a MAIN action on it or flipped the Province Policy to Megaprojects.
It's important to separate "what we're theoretically capable of doing" and "what's actually going to end up happening." We could theoretically do two megaprojects in a single turn, but in practice, that's never going to happen and taking actions assuming that will happen is folly.
 
It's important to separate "what we're theoretically capable of doing" and "what's actually going to end up happening." We could theoretically do two megaprojects in a single turn, but in practice, that's never going to happen and taking actions assuming that will happen is folly.
It's a good thing nobody is making any assumptions than.

I will note that you have yet to give an actual reason why we will never do two megaprojects in a single turn, much less a reason why we shouldn't.

We have the Wealth, we have the Econ, we have the Mystic and in practice, the Provinces stopped doing Megaprojects when we ran out of Megaprojects and got to change the policy for free. Which resulted in the provinces having the Exploration stance. Not because Province Exploration was better than Province Megaproject, but because the Province Megaproject found itself with nothing to do.
You:
We'll want to keep the factions happy and the warriors especially, so we should do the quest. Not a bad quest either, given how crippling the double exploration is to our temp martial.
have acknowledged that the constant double exploration from the province policy is in some sense 'crippling.'

By shifting the Province Stance back to Megaproject, we rid ourselves of two headaches at the same time: the drain on our action economy and the drain on our temp Martial.
I am asserting that we can complete the Bronze Age Census if we actually want the thing. And that if we are not willing to spend actions on the Census, we should just put the provinces back to Megaprojects. Or at least not let its existence on our option list keep us from unlocking the Megaprojects we actually want to have.
 
I will note that you have yet to give an actual reason why we will never do two megaprojects in a single turn
Because that's just not the kind of thing the thread's willing to do. There's nothing else to it. We'll never do two megaprojects in a turn because the thread will always prefer to do a combination of megaproject and something else.
 
This argument about "wealth spilling out" is the exact same kind of argument, the sort that says if you do one thing, the opposite of its obvious result will happen. In actuality, if you concentrate wealth in the centre, wealth is concentrated in the centre. It does not "spill out." If you want to spread wealth across the empire, you have to actually go out and spread that wealth across the empire. You cannot get out of putting in the work of building infrastructure (or settlements I suppose) across the empire.
Nonsense. If you concentrate wealth in the metropole, it'll trickle down towards the periphery! That's Ecomomics 101. We shouldn't just give out handouts to those lazy moochers in the colonies!
We should not unlock a new megaproject in the next mid-turn.
I want my shipyard though.
 
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 96 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 2382-2425]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

-[X] Empire to Forestry
No. of Votes: 1

-[X] Infrastructure to Forestry
No. of Votes: 1



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN

[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 9

[X][MAIN] Plant Sacred Forests
No. of Votes: 3

[X][MAIN] Found Colony = Sunrise Mountains
No. of Votes: 1
[X] ALanos

[X][MAIN] Plant Sacred Forests x2
No. of Votes: 1



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SEC

[X][SEC] Waterways
No. of Votes: 14

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 9

[X][SEC] Settle Land = GreenBay
No. of Votes: 3

[X][SEC] Build Boats
No. of Votes: 2

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = (Cursed Forest)
No. of Votes: 2

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (7/7)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = (Sea)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][SEC] Plant Sacred Forests
No. of Votes: 1

[X][SEC] Plant Sacred Forests x2
No. of Votes: 1

[X][SEC] Switch Province Policy = (Megaproject)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Forluc)
No. of Votes: 1


Total No. of Voters: 16
 
[X] [SEC] Waterways
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = GreenBay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Northern Sunset Plains)
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Northern Sunset Plains) x2
[X] [SEC] Plant Sacred Forests
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Tordysh)
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Raradysh)
[X] [SEC] Census (Bronze Age)
[X] [MAIN] Census (Bronze Age)
[X] [SEC] Switch Province Policy = (Megaproject)

SEC Forest for the quest, finish it faster so we can get a new one.
Southern border needs 3 walls to finish two provinces. Any progress before contacting the Caradysh would be nice.
MAIN Census because Megaprojects tend to be useful(even if Infrastructure shouldn't be neglected). Might allow for a free Value upgrade or upgrade a Divine Blessing.
SEC Census for flexibility in case we want to finish the thing in the upcoming Mid-turn or the upcoming MAIN.
Province Policy should probably leave two Census slots open.
Venerate to generate Temp Culture for our Mid turn picks(it seems like a constant budgetary constraint) and for stocking up on Legitimacy/Stability as a buffer in case we want to force reforms/challenge established dogma at a later date.
Trade with Tordysh/Raradysh to foster closer ties and encourage the mutual communication of ideas since people seem leery of straight support.
Warriors... eh, more of a manpower fix to amliorate the exploration bleed.

Because that's just not the kind of thing the thread's willing to do. There's nothing else to it. We'll never do two megaprojects in a turn because the thread will always prefer to do a combination of megaproject and something else.
We have 4 actions.
SEC Waterways + SEC Province Policy is 2 actions, leaving 2 other actions.
SEC Waterways + MAIN Census is 3 actions, which still leaves us a spare action.

We can have our "megaproject and something else."
 
We have 4 actions.
SEC Waterways + SEC Province Policy is 2 actions, leaving 2 other actions.
SEC Waterways + MAIN Census is 3 actions, which still leaves us a spare action.

We can have our "megaproject and something else."
Qeqre, this is annoying. You keep arguing that we "can" do a megaproject and something else but I've been arguing about whether the thread would actually end up doing it. Please for goodness sake address that. Cease arguing as if I've been saying it's not feasible or possible to do more than one megaproject in a turn. Cease that immediately, totally, and forever.
 
It's important to separate "what we're theoretically capable of doing" and "what's actually going to end up happening." We could theoretically do two megaprojects in a single turn, but in practice, that's never going to happen and taking actions assuming that will happen is folly.
Qeqre, this is annoying. You keep arguing that we "can" do a megaproject and something else but I've been arguing about whether the thread would actually end up doing it. Please for goodness sake address that. Cease arguing as if I've been saying it's not feasible or possible to do more than one megaproject in a turn. Cease that immediately, totally, and forever.
And yet it at least seems to be that you are also arguing it is never going to happen because of something that COULD CHANGE. In practice it might not ever happen, but at they same time, it might just happen depending on the whims of the voters. 🤷‍♂️
 
And yet it at least seems to be that you are also arguing it is never going to happen because of something that COULD CHANGE. In practice it might not ever happen, but at they same time, it might just happen depending on the whims of the voters. 🤷‍♂️
If you wanna argue that the voters will or may vote for two megaprojects that's fine, just don't argue as if I'm saying it's physically impossible or whatever.
 
I cannot think of a situation where I would only vote for megaprojects apart from some weird situation where I believe finishing several megaprojects is necessary for survival.
Which would be really odd.
 
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have acknowledged that the constant double exploration from the province policy is in some sense 'crippling.'

By shifting the Province Stance back to Megaproject, we rid ourselves of two headaches at the same time: the drain on our action economy and the drain on our temp Martial.
I am asserting that we can complete the Bronze Age Census if we actually want the thing. And that if we are not willing to spend actions on the Census, we should just put the provinces back to Megaprojects. Or at least not let its existence on our option list keep us from unlocking the Megaprojects we actually want to have.

I notice that the playerbase are not voting for switches to megaprojects and instead choosing to stay on Exploration.

And why not? Staying on exploration means that we are constantly challenging ourselves. With the exception of making hostile contact with a faraway civilization that necessitates disproportionate response.

It also provide a balance away from our tendency for inward focus. That's why we're also sending a trade expedition to the Caradysh. It's a challenge, and hopefully reduce the Caradysh as a threat, since we basically never had a positive interaction with them.

Megaprojects basically provide no challenges for us whatsoever. There's no risk(other than opportunity cost), and thus no way to challenge victory disease.
 
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Qeqre, this is annoying. You keep arguing that we "can" do a megaproject and something else but I've been arguing about whether the thread would actually end up doing it. Please for goodness sake address that. Cease arguing as if I've been saying it's not feasible or possible to do more than one megaproject in a turn. Cease that immediately, totally, and forever.
I actually haven't argued that you claimed it was neither feasible nor possible though?

What I have been doing is refuting the reasons you keep giving to prop up your assertion that the thread will never vote to build more than one Megaproject at a time, thereby debunking your assertion.
This leaves us without a good reason to not do more megaprojects. So I follow it up with reasons why we might actually want to do it.

Your personal annoyance is not an argument. Your demand that I stop arguing does not seem legitimate or reasonable.
What you do have control over? Are your own actions. If you find yourself annoyed and/or frustrated, remember that you can always choose to simply stop responding at your own volition.

I notice that the playerbase are not voting for switches to megaprojects and instead choosing to stay on Exploration.

And why not? Staying on exploration means that we are constantly challenging ourselves. With the exception of making hostile contact with a faraway civilization that necessitates disproportionate response.

It also provide a balance away from our tendency for inward focus. That's why we're also sending a trade expedition to the Caradysh. It's a challenge, and hopefully reduce the Caradysh as a threat, since we basically never had a positive interaction with them.

Megaprojects basically provide no challenges for us whatsoever. There's no risk, and thus no way to challenge victory disease.
With regards to the playerbase not voting to switch the Province Policy, I suspect that that the opportunity cost of needing to spend an action gives our policies a fairly large amount of inertia.
The "It's not a complete waste and changing it is kind of a hassle, so why bother when I could be getting something?" type of mentality.

The diplomatic expedition to the Caradysh had to be manually triggered, because no Arthwyd would challenge the status quo like that on their own.
Probably because it might result in the Priestesses/Elders/Warriors flipping out and causing harm via either war or internal unrest(violating the communal mandate).
.

Pioneering Ways gives us a 50% chance of an Exploration action every turn. Beyond that, Caermyr is probably crapping out trade missions nigh-constantly, being a dedicated trade post(and one of our two centers of trade) and all. Combined with our Passive Policy for Diplomacy, do seem to have a fairly solid outward looking stance(as the default Arthwydysh position is conservative, which supports trade and contact with foreigners and limited exploration).

Province Exploration does not challenge the Arthwydysh status quo. Neither does launching an major war against a newcomer who doesn't understand how the Arthwyd respond to people kidnapping their citizens.

Equally, inward focus is not incompatible with challenging ourselves. Megaprojects give bonuses precisely because they are supposed to be difficult civilizational achievements that have never been done before. Completing more than one in a single turn? That is a challenge to Arthwydish ingenuity. Founding another colony and forcing ourselves to remain at 4/3+ Legitimacy to manage our Empire? That is a challenge to Arthwydish administrative capabilities. Or we could deliberately piss off the Zaradysh/Raradysh/Tordysh/Cernn by doing a Support Subordinate with the explicit aim of preaching the Arthrynite way of life to them.

We could even cause internal challenges through non-action by switching our the Empire Passives and dealing with Medium(or less) Loyalty on the Raradysh/Tordysh/Zaradysh/Cernn.

If you want to challenge victory disease and the established order though? A fast way would be to SEC War Party a random target to get us in a protracted war with no clear victory or casus belli(while also being our first real offensive war). Should get our peace-loving people to start questioning the infallibility of the current regime and/or military doctrine pretty quickly.
 
I would close the vote now, but I'm not going to be able to start any writing until tomorrow so I'm leaving it open until I get up in the morning.
 
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