Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Australia
Ok first of all AAAAAAAAA
Secondly holy crap there is a lot to process and so much god damn stuff to do Jesus Christ.
Secondly holy crap there is a lot to process and so much god damn stuff to do Jesus Christ.
We are exceedingly lucky that we chose to put so many passives on Infrastructure.
The time of roads has finally come.
I remember from Dwarf Fortress that bismuth is pretty but don't really know what it's good for. The extra tin and copper mines are fantastic. The lead sucks, the silver and gold are redundant, and it seems real life hadn't discovered nickel until the 18th century so not sure what ancient uses it could have.
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
From my research, it wasn't identified as being its own thing until the 19th Century, but it got used throughout history by mistaken for other metals.
- Location
- Australia
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
Conservatives are gonna knock down a Stability, the most powerful faction is gonna get mad at us, and we're at 2/3 Legitimacy. Venerate is basically mandatory.
There's so much temple-building in the plan because we need to boost our Legitimacy ASAP. Hopefully Venerate succeeds and we go up to 4/3 Legitimacy, but if it fails, this temple plan becomes vital. We cannot afford to take the risk of 2/3 Legitimacy when the Conservatives quest fails. With all the new mine locations, there's the possibility that the passive policies will build mines instead of temples which would be dangerous. We need to be certain we hit max temples.
Even if the passives prioritise temples above mines, they may prioritise mines above other infrastructure projects such as aqueducts and, most crucially, walls. If we max out temples this turn, we can be sure they'll build 3 walls and an aqueduct next turn, giving us an enormous amount of breathing space to do other things.
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
Conservatives are gonna knock down a Stability, the most powerful faction is gonna get mad at us, and we're at 2/3 Legitimacy. Venerate is basically mandatory.
There's so much temple-building in the plan because we need to boost our Legitimacy ASAP. Hopefully Venerate succeeds and we go up to 4/3 Legitimacy, but if it fails, this temple plan becomes vital. We cannot afford to take the risk of 2/3 Legitimacy when the Conservatives quest fails. With all the new mine locations, there's the possibility that the passive policies will build mines instead of temples which would be dangerous. We need to be certain we hit max temples.
Even if the passives prioritise temples above mines, they may prioritise mines above other infrastructure projects such as aqueducts and, most crucially, walls. If we max out temples this turn, we can be sure they'll build 3 walls and an aqueduct next turn, giving us an enormous amount of breathing space to do other things.
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
No other true threats, so we can focus our true intention on this one.
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
from Andres110's rationale (and because the Infrastructure policy is more likely to build at Western Rock River).
...
We might send a trade expedition to the Caradysh themselves:[][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Caradysh)
At minimum, however, we need to establish/maintain trade links with their other subordinates, to make sure we aren't caught by surprise by any major changes, so, preliminary vote:
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Hamefordysh)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Fornn)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Bruraysh)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Diondairysh)
with the intention that only one of these go through; probably the Hamefordysh, the runners up from last time. We don't want to repeat the Sinsearysh trade, as we want to make sure they aren't only a one-off: we want to make sure the Caradysh policy is consistent across even a variety of subordinate cultures.
No other true threats, so we can focus our true intention on this one.
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
from Andres110's rationale (and because the Infrastructure policy is more likely to build at Western Rock River).
...
We might send a trade expedition to the Caradysh themselves:
- Less controversial compared to the diplomatic outreach while not simply turning the diplomatic faucet off (that way leads to more paranoia and instability, like the last time)
- Could get us some much-needed magic shines to counter the Northern invaders (since the ideal option of Caradysh magical advisors is out of the question).
At minimum, however, we need to establish/maintain trade links with their other subordinates, to make sure we aren't caught by surprise by any major changes, so, preliminary vote:
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Hamefordysh)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Fornn)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Bruraysh)
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Diondairysh)
with the intention that only one of these go through; probably the Hamefordysh, the runners up from last time. We don't want to repeat the Sinsearysh trade, as we want to make sure they aren't only a one-off: we want to make sure the Caradysh policy is consistent across even a variety of subordinate cultures.
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- Location
- Australia
We cannot afford to take more Legitimacy and Stability hits right now. As one of the people very fervently arguing in favour of diplomacy and forging a stronger peace last turn, as someone who still thinks that was absolutely the best choice we could've made, right now we need to leave the Caradysh alone and focus on internal health and stability. Our successful diplomatic efforts have bought us a solid enough peace and we should rely on that for at least this turn.
I can cross out the Caradysh trade expedition (it's a bit unlikely and riskier, anyway), but I still think the subordinate trade is needed (for the Arthwyd's continued exposure) and low-risk.
I think there's little issue of pushing the boundaries when it's just confirming that other subordinates also have the same story as the Sinsearysh, or not. If they do, it helps to further relieve tensions; and if they don't, we need to know.
I think there's little issue of pushing the boundaries when it's just confirming that other subordinates also have the same story as the Sinsearysh, or not. If they do, it helps to further relieve tensions; and if they don't, we need to know.
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Yeah, that's pretty low all things considered.
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Thurezea)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Library
Thurezea trade for Explorist and Traderist quests, SEC Settle Greenbay to hopefully combo with the Explorist quest reward for a 15/15 Greenbay, SEC Venerate to give our Stability a bit of a boost and the Library for the prestige so our subordinate cap might increase(and to get the bonus from being the first).
Edit:
Approval for:
[X] [SEC] Build Aqueduct = Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
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- Location
- Australia
Right now the previous arguments that we ought to let our people get used to things are correct. It's not a case of a lit fuse anymore, now it's a case of tension that's slowly releasing. We need to focus our efforts on finishing the faction quests and during that time the diplomatic situation with foreign powers will improve on its own.
Dude we badly need full temples for the Legitimacy right now and more settlements is the exact opposite of helping. We also badly need walls and unless we manually build the temples there's a chance the passives will get distracted with mines and take too long to build the walls to finish them on time. We do not have the free space to go building libraries and settling land.
Also, intentionally trying to finish the Explorists quest could very easily found a settlement in the Western Rock River instead of Greenbay, which would hasten the collapse of our civilisation. We need to let that quest fail and manually build the Greenbay settlements when we have the time. (We do not have the time right now.)
I notice you have yet to substantiate your assertion that full temples boosts Legitimacy.
And a big reason we need the Legitimacy is because we are above our subordinate cap. We can raise our subordinate cap by building Megaprojects for Prestige. By building a Library, we get more Prestige, which works towards fixing our Subordinate Cap issue.
Passives are influenced by factions. And I suspect that they are influenced by current events.
Right now we have Outraged Monarchists(backed by Pleased Localists) demanding Walls and Angry Theocrats(backed by Hopeful Pacifists) wanting more Temples with a new enemy launching raids into the North and people still thinking the Caradysh are evil.
I'm expecting our Passives to go for 3 walls and prioritize Temples over Mines this turn. Failing that? The Wall quests have a 3-turn timer and the Temple quests have 4-turn timers, so they will most likely finish before the timers run out.
If the Explorist quest builds in Western Rock River? We also gain progress towards the bonus actions/passives of finishing yet another 2provinces set. If it settles Greenbay on the other hand? We get to see what a 15/15 province does.
And while the Explorist reward might shave ~2 turns from the ~68 turn collapse timer(assuming we don't manage to develop better Admin tech), our deliberately trying to let the quest fail would force us to juggle yet another upset faction(and potentially cater to a punitive quest) when we already have a bunch of upset factions threatening with -Stability or -Legitimacy.
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I assume you're trying to finish the Theocrats + Pacifists' build 4 temples quest. A guaranteed completion (for Priest innovation + aqueduct) is an enticing possibility.
However, we already have the momentum in building temples:
and my current vote builds 3/4 regardless. I think we can roll the dice on the 4th one (which, being a sparse 1/2 Temple area, people are more likely to go for) and, worst case, finish next turn--in return for sure progress (and more importantly, not retreating back into isolationism) on the Caradysh question.
- Location
- Pennslyvania
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
- Location
- Australia
When we got half temples, we got +1 Legitimacy, taking us to 5/3 Legitimacy. That's what prompted us to send our first Diplomatic Expedition to the Caradysh. It's a safe bet that full temples will get us another +1 Legitimacy, and do so a lot faster than by grinding Prestige. We were in the subordinate danger zone before at 1 less subordinate cap than we needed. Now we're 2 behind and the Conservatives quest is going to fail. What we need is a point of Legitimacy now, not two or three turns from now.
The primary reason to build 4 temples is to get 100% temple coverage throughout our empire which I expect to give us a point of Legitimacy. We need more Legitimacy to withstand the Conservatives backlash and to increase our subordinate cap since right now we have more subordinates than our subordinate cap, which stands to cause us major problems unless we deal with it swiftly.
Another reason why we should manually build as many temples as we can is so that we can be sure our passive policies will finish all of the wall-building and aqueduct-building quests on their own. Our people want walls but they also want bronze, and there's the very real possibility that we'll get yet more infrastructure quests next turn. Assuming we build the 4 temples (whether manually or passively), we'll have 6 new quests and it's not too unlikely one or more will be infrastructure quests.
Grinding Prestige means we get to solve the Subordinate Cap issue without needing to hit 4/3 Legitimacy. Which I recall you arguing was unhealthy and not possible to get via normal Venerate(which could be an issue if our Legitimacy were to drop back down to 3/3).
And getting back up to 3/3 Legitimacy via Venerate would only put us 1 over our Subordinate Cap. Which should be manageable with the high-Admin Cadlon that we currently have, giving us time to grind Prestige.
And I'll remind you that not everyone was sending the first Diplomatic Expedition to the Caradysh for the explicit purpose of lowering our Legitimacy.
- Location
- Australia
4/3 Legitimacy is unhealthy in the long term; in the short term it's harmless. Hell, 4/3 Legitimacy is preferable to 3/3 Legitimacy in the short term since it'd let us deal with the Conservatives' blowback better. Furthermore, going full temples this turn ensures we'll have 3/3 Legitimacy when the Conservatives get angry and means we can be sure we won't lose Legitimacy from failing the Monarchists' quest. There are other major advantages to doing full temples but I've already written them down in prior posts.
Failing the Conservatives' quest causes a drop in Stability. Which does not affect our Subordinate Cap. With this turns' Venerate having a decent chance of pushing us to 3/3 Stability before the Conservatives push us back down to 2/3 Stability.
The other advantages of doing full temples that you mentioned in your post-update posts were the reduced risk of time pressure on our existing infrastructure quests in the event of our Passive Policies randomly deciding to prioritize the mines and the possibility of the Internalists' Aqueduct quest getting finished through a mix of the Pacifist quest reward and a Passive Policy tick. But you're probably not talking about a SEC actions' worth of reward or a 0.1 increase to faction opinion so I've probably missed one of your other reasons but I digress.
Infrastructure Policies probably won't prioritize the mines when none of the factions are calling for mining and when people are nervous about unholy East Men/Caradysh.
At the same time, Infrastructure policies probably won't go above 3 Small Walls because we only have 3 Provinces that aren't capped on Small Walls(and potentially not even above 2 because Greenbay has buffer provinces).
This means we're probably looking at 3 Walls and 3 Temples from the Infrastructure Passives. Which means we'd only need 3 Walls, 1 Temple and 1 Aqueduct to complete the Faction Quests. With the Walls having such a long timer that we can probably assume they'll get done regardless.
...1 Aqueduct + 1 Temple for questing might be decent actually, I'll add an approval vote for those.
- Location
- Australia
I'm looking at potential narrative consequences, not mechanical.
- Location
- Minnesota
Oh look, our subordinates did farming, walls, and warriors again! What a complete and utter shock!
Bismuth is a used for alloying bronze and brass.
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [SEC] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [SEC] Build Aqueduct = Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
A major failure point of our civilization is and remains our poor military doctrine. We need the innovation rolls to address this. Also, with an invasion coming might it not be a good idea to increase the numbers of warriors we have?
Approval Edit:
[X] [MAIN] Library
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
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- Location
- USA
[X] [North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Thurezea)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Library
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Thurezea)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Library
When the Conservatives asked for the extra colony, we did not yet have the Forluc or Forden as subordinates.
The Conservatives wanted the Arthwyd Empire to expand, and it did. They wanted it to come in the form of a colony, but this idea got put on halt after we regained contact with the Cernn and decided to take the Forluc/Forden under our wing, which left our central administration too strained to manage a new colony.
Would they judge us too harshly for being charitable and ending slavery among the Forluc?
- Location
- Australia
They would, hence why the -1 Stability is still there. Their desire are not rational nor tempered by reason.
Employing sarcasm for this in this manner doesn't say good things about how well you've managed to understand other people's thoughts, arguments, and expectations. The way you've perceived things must've been distorted indeed if you'd come to think that anyone argued or expected the vassals would do differently.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They would. You expanded the Arthwyd Empire, but that wasn't actually what they wanted, which is a new colony with Arthwydish settlers and Arthwydish culture.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 135 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3381-3396]
##### NetTally 2.2.0
Task: North
[X][North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
No. of Votes: 6
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SEC
[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 6
[X][SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 4
[X][SEC] Build Aqueduct = Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Thurezea)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Bruraysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Diondairysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Fornn)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Hamefordysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][SEC] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN
[X][MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 3
[X][MAIN] Library
No. of Votes: 2
[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 6
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 135 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3381-3396]
##### NetTally 2.2.0
Task: North
[X][North] Both economical and military aid. (Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-)
No. of Votes: 6
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SEC
[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 6
[X][SEC] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 4
[X][SEC] Build Aqueduct = Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Build Temples = (Western Rock River)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Thurezea)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Bruraysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Diondairysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Fornn)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Hamefordysh)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon
[X][SEC] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Donkey Hote
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN
[X][MAIN] Build Temples = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 3
[X][MAIN] Library
No. of Votes: 2
[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Donkey Hote
Total No. of Voters: 6