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Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

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well look at all that information. I suppose that's what we'll be going with.

Using a Cadlon's body as a plaything?
Back to my old grindstone it is:

The administration will prosper, the farmers will grow, the empire will expand

and Caradysh will Burn
 
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Staff Notice: Be civil to other users.
Oh for gods sake you frothing at the mouth warmongers can't conceive of anything but killing people, can you.
 
I mean. I can. But not in this case, because they're puppeting the body of a holy Cadlon or the Cadlon herself was a traitor to literally the Ever Evil

this is a foundational boogeyman for our culture and religion, and the first we see of them post ice age they're using the body of a Cadlon to tell us they want peace. Disgusting. How dare they.

I am incredibly shocked that the fact that their leader used to be our leader isn't a bigger deal but you know. Maybe they just happen to have the same name.
 
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I mean, we made peace with the Forlock, with the boarmen, and more. Even if it was a case of "We did better, ya mind us being in charge." for the former and "long as you don't raid us and trade we're good" for the latter, and we've left those distant civs that we have legit issues with on how we view the world and so on because a war would not only be pointless, wasteful and terrible...but it'd accomplish nothing.

With the Caradysh, there is a lot of reasons in character that war with them would need *heavy* evidence for no longer being the case and if it is not there, our people *will still want it*.

I've been a proponent of getting more info to figure out what's going on, but that's also been extended to accepting that the chances of war still being needed are as likely as it not being needed and am prepared for either.
 
[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Priestess Elyna of Greenbay. (Excellent Admin, ???)

[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Sinsearysh)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure) x2

Considering that people are getting excited over Urths backstory let's not forget that we don't know where he even is. Best chance of picking up a lead is in Caradysh itself.

Unless you think Urth is pulling the same trick twice against us and our expert level truth detection magic because he's now a complete fucking idiot.
 
JowKeen said:
But not in this case, because they're puppeting the body of a holy Cadlon or the Cadlon herself was a traitor to literally the Ever Evil
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No they aren't. That was in the old quest. If you were to read the history post the GM just posted, you'd see that there's no mention of that incident at all. The closest thing he did was kill a cadlon's husband. You need to separate Urth's actions in the old quest from his actions in the new quest.

They're not puppeting any of our cadlons' bodies now either. You said they're doing that after the ice age which means this isn't old quest stuff, which means you're not merely getting mixed up with the old quest, you're just telling an untruth.
 
[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Priestess Elyna of Greenbay. (Excellent Admin, ???)

[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Sinsearysh)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure) x2

This is going to cause a lot of internal strife, but we need more information to see if a war is worth it
 
@Oshha, you missed an important part of Urth's history in your post. In this update, Urth sends messengers to us in the form of lowlander slaves telling us about the Forluc and offering an alliance against them. We refuse, then we launch an unprovoked attack three updates later. The first thing he did after losing to Evalyn was try to make common cause with us, and then only began attacking us after we responded to his entreaties with war. Later, we sent a diplomatic expedition to the Caradysh and it went alright until we broke all contact the very next update. It has not been an unbroken history of Urth attacking us.

(Reposting this because I pinged the wrong person before.)
 
And this is why I've been so upset. We have launched unprovoked attacks, even after they tried diplomacy with us, yet the people clamoring for war seems to ignore that. They are trying to use things from the original quest that didn't even happen here as an excuse for entering an absolutely phyrric war. That feels kinda shitty to me, using stuff that never was to hurt others. This is a different timeline, with different circumstances, but nothing I say seems to get through to them, that war is not a positive, life improving thing.
 
Oshha said:
That was Laithyche not Morgynys. Morgynys was an Arthwydish Cadlon from a couple of turns ago.
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@Andres110 hey look at that, new campaign same body snatching ways



Illusion of Eris said:
nothing I say seems to get through to them, that war is not a positive, life improving thing.
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This is a terrible mess. I view not entering war footing as an acceptable action, but the declaration of the Cernn as civilized is 100% a mistake. Because we did BOTH we're now in a place where one of the two decisions should probably be declared a mistake for stability reasons

I have no idea why thread voted for the lowlander barbarian warmongers to be considered civilized. But they did. We are the only culture that views War as something to be avoided as a barbaric and horrible event. Now we have two events that are contentious and a fraying cultural situation.

1. we embrace the Cernn civilization paradigm and begin to value Martial, and War outside of barbaric reasons. Some war is barbaric, some is Holy. Holy war is extraordinarily powerful. Terrible, I hate it, but honestly this is easier to accomplish and I hate Caradysh more than I hate the destruction of our peace-values that occurs from embracing Cernn

2. we embrace Peace and declare that the barbaric war practices of Cernn are not civilized. This ameliorates some of those upset by that decision, and may help reduce tensions over not going to war with our cultural bogeyman.

Humans are not rational creatures. We are cultural creatures. You can rationalize some subjectively terrible things (like peace with the Ever Evil) but that rationalizing is a hell of a lot stronger when you back that up with some cultural reasoning. The Mystic Cadlon investigating Caradysh and finding that Urth the Ever Evil has been smote would be a great help. Administering and attempting to rationalize with a public that has lived with stories of the bogeyman for centuries, is not a good approach for peace.

Reject the Cernn, the Cadlon is fallible, and declare peace (as a fallible cadlon when almost every religious colony is guaranteed to want war) is the ?best? option for this working out? I see the war to be either against our vassals or Caradysh and. Well. I have a bias there
 
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JowKeen said:
@Andres110 hey look at that, new campaign same body snatching ways
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Yeah, Morgynys was an Arthwydish cadlon. There's no indication the Caradysh stole her body. Are you getting confused with the merely similarly-named Morgyn who now rules the Caradysh?

EDIT: Don't even try to say they're the same person. Morgyn showed up in this update and Morgynys only showed up in the subsequent update as our cadlon. Morgyn the Caradysh's ruler predates Morgynys the Arthwydish cadlon.
 
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I think we should war with Caradysh.
Because my beef with them as a faction is thanks to the Necromancy, we can never be sure if it's long-term thinking OR genuine change of heart, because unlike most factions where they'll slowly change over turns, these guys will generally have the same mind at the helm. And that enables some nasty tricks if utilized correctly.
Like waiting out living memory to make a move. Or purposefully erasing a people's history in order to impose your own story upon them.
And that's the scary thing about peace. We have to expose our backs to their knives and hope they don't stab us. And for much of human history, it's more profitable to stab and grab then it is to band together, especially as you scale up.
I'll admit the nice thing about Urth is if we can CONFIRM he's gone, then yeah cool beans, and he could be pivotal enough for the nation to change the moment he's gone. Of course, the flipside is that if we fail to confirm he's dead, we can't drop our guard.
And as I see it, the Necromancy package the Caradysh have means even IF Urth dies, that doesn't garuntee the Caradysh will suddenly be 'okay'. It simply means that that Urth is out of the picture. I'd say even in the case of a confirmed Urth-kill that prompts a culture-shift we will NEED to do some serious follow-up to be sure the Caradysh won't go back to the evil ways they had under Urth. Or that they won't raise a new Urth-like figure, because that's an angle as well.
 
My main concern here is that while the side preparing for war is allowing for the possibility that peace is an option, they are at least prepping in ways that allow for that to do good other than a push for war for the sake of it. From what I can see... at least one of the pro peace speakers is so vehemently wedded to the idea that not only are they not allowing for the possibility that war will be needed...but even ignore the idea that what has been done on the caradysh side can be for anything but purely altruistic reasons, in an ironic sense repeating the logic of certain governments on the grounds of appeasement from a distinct period of history.

Everything the Caradysh have done can be either for noble or enlightened self interest very easily.

We can use trade, diplomacy, plenty of methods but just because we're using trade or even outright diplomacy to get an idea of what's going on, doesn't mean that prepping for the fact that war might be needed makes anyone willing to keep that stance is a 'frothing at the mouth war monger'. And the fact that it has devolved to personal attacks and attempts to manipulate through emotional and tar brushing doesn't help that cause at all.
 
JowKeen said:
This is because we continually ignored the Ever Evil and struck peace with them.
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You're misremembering. There was no peace (or even diplomatic relations) with either Urth or the Caradysh... until Urth reached out to us to ally against the Forluc, and from then on neither Urth nor the Caradysh did anything to betray us. They became, in fact, our most useful allies.

You can argue that we ignored the Caradysh and bad things happened, but not that we made peace with the Caradysh and bad things happened; that is precisely the opposite of what happened.

...

Illusion of Eris said:
And this is why I've been so upset. We have launched unprovoked attacks, even after they tried diplomacy with us, yet the people clamoring for war seems to ignore that.
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No reason to be upset. At the end of the day, it's just a game; and if our civilization burns by the voters' will; well, it was arguably the more realistic outcome all along.

Until that outcome is made inevitable, however, we need actual intelligence and dialog. To preemptively remove all possibility for peace is not the action of someone "afraid of appeasement", but rather the action of someone afraid of finding out that said peace might actually be possible. Enemies talk to one another because despite the (in this case, probably one-sided) hate, it's still the sane thing to do.

[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses

and, of course, there is no reason to only hear from a single source:

[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Sinsearysh)

Walls and temples:

[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Infrastructure+Infrastructure) x2

Bronze isn't going to save us from being overrun in the event of total war, but hey, it's a good deterrent and trade good:

[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Priestess Elyna of Greenbay. (Excellent Admin, ???)
 
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Zaealix said:
Because my beef with them as a faction is thanks to the Necromancy, we can never be sure if it's long-term thinking OR genuine change of heart, because unlike most factions where they'll slowly change over turns, these guys will generally have the same mind at the helm. And that enables some nasty tricks if utilized correctly.
Like waiting out living memory to make a move. Or purposefully erasing a people's history in order to impose your own story upon them.
And that's the scary thing about peace. We have to expose our backs to their knives and hope they don't stab us. And for much of human history, it's more profitable to stab and grab then it is to band together, especially as you scale up.
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This is pretty damn hypocritical given everything you said can be applied to us. Hell, it's worse, because they never backstabbed us when we tried peace, but we absolutely backstabbed them when they tried peace. Besides that, it is not more profitable for us or them to go to war. A war between us would be massively destructive on both sides no matter who wins, and it's not guaranteed which side will win or if it devolves into a stalemate. The optimal thing to do for both powers is to remain at peace, which is possible and which the Caradysh have shown they're willing to engage in.

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argenten said:
My main concern here is that while the side preparing for war is allowing for the possibility that peace is an option, they are at least prepping in ways that allow for that to do good other than a push for war for the sake of it. From what I can see... at least one of the pro peace speakers is so vehemently wedded to the idea that not only are they not allowing for the possibility that war will be needed...but even ignore the idea that what has been done on the caradysh side can be for anything but purely altruistic reasons, in an ironic sense repeating the logic of certain governments on the grounds of appeasement from a distinct period of history.

Everything the Caradysh have done can be either for noble or enlightened self interest very easily.

We can use trade, diplomacy, plenty of methods but just because we're using trade or even outright diplomacy to get an idea of what's going on, doesn't mean that prepping for the fact that war might be needed makes anyone willing to keep that stance is a 'frothing at the mouth war monger'. And the fact that it has devolved to personal attacks and attempts to manipulate through emotional and tar brushing doesn't help that cause at all.
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If you're worried about war, we've got a heck ton of Infrastructure passives building walls and we're about to massively increase the amount of bronze we have. We don't need to sacrifice peace-making and information-gathering efforts to maintain a a very solid defence.
 
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noncannon said:
You're misremembering. There was no peace (or even diplomatic relations) with either Urth or the Caradysh... until Urth reached out to us to ally against the Forluc, and from then on neither Urth nor the Caradysh did anything to betray us. They became, in fact, our most useful allies.
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last thread there was peace, until they betrayed us.



Andres110 said:
If you're worried about war, we've got a heck ton of Infrastructure passives building walls and we're about to massively increase the amount of bronze we have. We don't need to sacrifice peace-making and information-gathering efforts to maintain a a very solid defence.
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the bronze does nothing for war, we do not use it for war. We use holy stone, and have scoffed at using metals in arms and armor repeatedly. The way to transition all that bronze into warfare is to integrate more of a martial bent, even if we end up at peace.
 
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JowKeen said:
last thread there was peace, until they betrayed us.
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There was no diplomatic contact. Urth can't "betray" someone he's not even talking to.

Urth did attack us, at first--and after the peace treaty and actual diplomatic contact, he (and the Caradysh) stopped. I know it may be difficult to remember, but our civilizations became part of a triumvirate. It was this entire thing.
 
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JowKeen said:
last thread there was peace, until they betrayed us.
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The last thread didn't and won't happen. It's a different timeline entirely. There's no bodysnatching either.

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JowKeen said:
the bronze does nothing for war, we do not use it for war. We use holy stone, and have scoffed at using metals in arms and armor repeatedly. The way to transition all that bronze into warfare is to integrate more of a martial bent, even if we end up at peace.
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We do use bronze for war. What we don't use is copper because our magic stone is better, but bronze is better than our magic stone for weapons and armour and our priests have been glad to use it where they could. The revolutionarily large influx of bronze will greatly increase our war power.
 
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noncannon said:
There was no diplomatic contact. Urth can't "betray" someone he's not even talking to.
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fine. Not betray, ambushed? Surprised? Assassinated? Sabotaged? Struck first? Whatever word that is "the cadlon was assassinated and her body abducted and used as Urth's favored form"



Andres110 said:
The last thread didn't and won't happen. It's a different timeline entirely. There's no bodysnatching either.
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QM says:

Oshha said:
That was Laithyche not Morgynys. Morgynys was an Arthwydish Cadlon from a couple of turns ago.
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hey look. Our Cadlon's body is back

orrr Cadlon Morgynys of the Caradysh is just someone using one of our titles and names incidentally
 
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JowKeen said:
hey look. Our Cadlon's body is back
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I addressed this. Read what I said.
Andres110 said:
Yeah, Morgynys was an Arthwydish cadlon. There's no indication the Caradysh stole her body. Are you getting confused with the merely similarly-named Morgyn who now rules the Caradysh?

EDIT: Don't even try to say they're the same person. Morgyn showed up in this update and Morgynys only showed up in the subsequent update as our cadlon. Morgyn the Caradysh's ruler predates Morgynys the Arthwydish cadlon.
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Stop saying that the Caradysh are wearing Morgynys' skin. Morgyn of the Caradysh is not Morgynys of the Arthwyd. Morgyn predates Morgynys.
 
Andres110 said:
This is pretty damn hypocritical given everything you said can be applied to us. Hell, it's worse, because they never backstabbed us when we tried peace, but we absolutely backstabbed them when they tried peace. Besides that, it is not more profitable for us or them to go to war. A war between us would be massively destructive on both sides no matter who wins, and it's not guaranteed which side will win or if it devolves into a stalemate. The optimal thing to do for both powers is to remain at peace, which is possible and which the Caradysh have shown they're willing to engage in.
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It's not about hypocrisy, it's about survival. I do not trust the Caradysh to keep their hands out of the proverbial cookie jar when they have all eternity to stare at it and as far as I can tell are unlikely to develop schools of thought where NOT going for it is the better play.

Like...As I see it, they fought the Arthwyrd, they lost, and they've always had a 'might makes right' line of thinking. That we won doesn't break that, it just means we were stronger in that moment. And here's the catch of all that. It's like how the Ymaryn beat the Toxolla (skull-wall) people and WERE able to beat them in a spiritual debate to prove they were better, but they weren't fighting the Toxolla at their for the spiritual debate, and that's important. The Toxolla were bested once and for all, but that's not our situation, and I imagine the average Caradysh would look at that story and go 'might makes right, stronger side won' and not see the problem. So just beating up the Caradysh won't solve them as a problem, either.

We CAN break it by putting 'Right before Might' in a way they can see...But until they actually change their mind, and nothing we do short of mind-control can forcibly change their mind, they're free to see those 'Right before Might' actions as weakness and attempt to win the fight. And again, if we try to do the right thing, get backstabbed, and still win over the Caradysh, that doesn't mean Right before Might, it can still be understood as Might makes Right, they had more Might.
 
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