Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

[Andres]

We're in a bad situation and the decision to found another settlement has made it slightly worse. When we lost the point of Legitimacy from recognising the Cernn as civilised, we lost a Religious Subordinate slot. We are now over our Subordinate limit. There is a way to quickly fix this: build temples. When we got up to half temples, our Legitimacy increased by 1 over our limit. If we get up to full, I think it's reasonable to think it'll do it again.

Unfortunately, the new settlement means we'll need to build an additional temple to get to the max. Also, our passives built walls instead of the temples the Infrastructure passives usually build, possibly because of the firm refusal to do anything about the Caradysh situation on our own part. (Though admittedly our hypothetical efforts may not've borne fruit quickly enough and they'd have built walls anyway.) At this point, getting Legitimacy through building temples doesn't look like the best solution.


[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Priestess Elyna of Greenbay. (Excellent Admin, ???)

Eyra won't solve any of our problems and we want to work against a giant pointless war, so Elyna is the best candidate. Excellent Admin is also good for general civilisation-building, which is very attractive.

[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Fornn)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Glory+Glory)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture->Glory)

Diplomatic Outreach with the Caradysh so we can actually resolve this whole situation and Venerate the Goddesses to deal with any Stability or Legitimacy loss it triggers. We should also send a Diplomatic Outreach to one of the Caradysh's vassals so the Arthwyd get a wider, fuller view of the situation, especially since a lot of Arthwyd want to "free the lowlanders from Caradysh oppression". It'll be good to see if there is any actual Caradysh oppression going on. The Fornn have 7/10 relations with us which makes them a pretty good and friendly target for this.

We need to get to the next level of Prestige quickly before being over our subordinate cap causes a crisis. The fast way to do that is Glory passive policy. 4 per turn will get us to 70+ Prestige in 2 turns, which is as fast as we can manage without sacrificing our ability to deal with the other big crisis-potential situation we're involved with.

The actions our subordinates didn't spend on food, they spent on warriors and walls. That should a very big hint what our priority should be.

[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Western Rock River)
[X] [SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest

Click to shrink...

It is not a hint at what our priority should be. War with the Caradysh is stupid and not inevitable, so we should work towards preventing a war rather than gearing up for one. Our subordinates are building up because we currently have bad relations with the Caradysh and they don't know what's going to happen, it's not a hint at what we should do. We need to work on gathering information, thawing relations, and strengthening the peace like rational adults rather than falling into reactionary mania.

 

[JowKeen]

As the person in this thread that first said "Caradysh Delende Est" I would like to say:

We don't know anything about the Caradysh.

In the original CoN Caradysh infiltrates, assassinates, and claims the body of a Cadlon to use for Urth's main body. This is because we continually ignored the Ever Evil and struck peace with them.

Now that hasn't happened here, but the foundations of Caradysh are still impossibly evil. As in, there is no parallel to real world happenings. Urth, self-described as The Ever Evil, committed atrocities magical and necrotic and blasphemous for thousands of years.

The current suggested timeline is this:

Mystic Hero of Zaranna (leader of a rebellion in our territories) flees the losing battles at the river into the Evil Woods.
Urth the Ever Evil comes in contact with this Mystic Hero. He is not actually divinely inspired (word of Oshha) and simply magically studious. And evil.
Zarannan Mystic Hero defeats(?) the Ever Evil in a permanent manner, likely because of divine intervention.
Zarannan Mystic Hero models herself Cadlon of Urth's old holdings, which seemed to mostly be places to further his magical studies and fortifications against us.
Zarannan Mystic Hero (Zaranna being a goddess of chaos) ends up utilizing the undead hordes to ???? grow food under magical wards Urth designed?
uses food to bribe lowlands to be under her sway and survive.
is currently worried about getting into a massive war with us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, okay. I could see this all being true. But the problem is then that a leader of a rebellion against the Arthwydish is now in control of an empire roughly our size but much more numerous in combatants and with many innovations we will not have both magically and militarily.

I am a bit shocked that we decided to consider the Cernn fully civilized. That means that their way of life is civilized, which is uh. A Choice.

Well, at least one good can come of it. I believe that we should found a new divine order (I advocated for this earlier in thread) that is a town-bound Militia order. This helps hone the martial spirit by dividing our forces between Home Defense Militia and Foreign Legions. Those with an inclination to explore, to fight, to slay as the Boar-Slayer did, these will go into Cateyes and Catclaws. Those with the urge to Protect, and to Serve, to build high walls and staff them, these will go to Militia.

It is known that sometimes there is Divine Inspiration in the outlying colonies, and I believe that the dedicated Militia branch is a good idea in regards to folding the "Cernn Civilized Style" into our own. Exultation of combat and war is barbaric, sure, but the defense of the Arthwyd is something to be proud to train for.

If war done in the defense of the Arthwyd is considered civil, then we may take it one step further. We could ask if there could be a divine warfare? Could there be causes so just that they are acceptable to exult in, such as the banishment of the Ever Evil? We did just accept the barbaric Cernn as "fully civilized" so perhaps warfare is not as "barbaric" and undesirable to our people as was once preached, at least not in all cases.

I do not believe we should work towards a peace with the Caradysh without knowing literally anything about them. I don't believe we should be going full crusade against them without foreknowledge either. However, going full crusade solves the issue with folding in Cernn culture as if they're properly civilized.

Feh.
We should arm ourselves, but also do diplomacy. I do not wish to become a crusading culture, but I would prefer it to making peace with The Ever Evil without confirmation that he has not simply possessed the body of a Mystic Hero. I would like to build military and fortification, but also send diplomacy.

We need to know what Urth's game is this time, and if it is not Urth perhaps we shall find a peace with this rebel for the holy act of having smote the Ever Evil and setting his works and legacy towards the much more acceptable Zaranna rather than whatever foul ego-stroking edifice he would otherwise erect. The chaos of that rebellion was truly horrible and barbaric, but for the act of destroying the Ever Evil we can forgive such chaos. This time.

 

[065tdsa]

Mystic Hero of Zaranna (leader of a rebellion in our territories) flees the losing battles at the river into the Evil Woods.
Urth the Ever Evil comes in contact with this Mystic Hero. He is not actually divinely inspired (word of Oshha) and simply magically studious. And evil.
Zarannan Mystic Hero defeats(?) the Ever Evil in a permanent manner, likely because of divine intervention.
Zarannan Mystic Hero models herself Cadlon of Urth's old holdings, which seemed to mostly be places to further his magical studies and fortifications against us.
Zarannan Mystic Hero (Zaranna being a goddess of chaos) ends up utilizing the undead hordes to ???? grow food under magical wards Urth designed?
uses food to bribe lowlands to be under her sway and survive.
is currently worried about getting into a massive war with us.

Click to shrink...

That is unlikely in so many ways. But mostly in that even if Zaranna was able to make a hero of theirs defeat Urth, they couldn't instruct this hero into successfully taking over Urth's empire, because Zaranna is a goddess of chaos. The whole thing would likely collapse on them as the rest of the Caradysh decided to murder the hell out of the interloper by hook or by crook.

 

[Andres]

Now that hasn't happened here, but the foundations of Caradysh are still impossibly evil. As in, there is no parallel to real world happenings. Urth, self-described as The Ever Evil, committed atrocities magical and necrotic and blasphemous for thousands of years.

Click to shrink...

We don't know jack shit about what he's been doing other than doing a lot of Study Magic, and he doesn't call himself the Everevil. So far, all his actions don't seem to have been any worse than any other lowlander warlord. He's conquered, warred, and slaughtered, but that's what lowlander warlords do. He's also been more amenable to peace and diplomacy with us than other lowlander warlords which is a point in his favour.

do not believe we should work towards a peace with the Caradysh without knowing literally anything about them.

Click to shrink...

Gotta send those Diplomatic Outreaches to get information. Not gonna get it by building up walls and armies, and we have other problems to deal with as well.

 

[Donkey Hote]

It is not a hint at what our priority should be. War with the Caradysh is stupid and not inevitable, so we should work towards preventing a war rather than gearing up for one. Our subordinates are building up because we currently have bad relations with the Caradysh and they don't know what's going to happen, it's not a hint at what we should do. We need to work on gathering information, thawing relations, and strengthening the peace like rational adults rather than falling into reactionary mania.

Click to shrink...

It very much is. Being prepared for war is not the same as seeking it. The path of appeasement never ends well.

 

[Andres]

It very much is. Being prepared for war is not the same as seeking it. The path of appeasement never ends well.

Click to shrink...

The point of Venerate the Goddesses was to mollify our people long enough to hammer out a long-term peaceful resolution to the current diplomatic situation with the Caradysh. It's dealing with the symptoms so that we have room to cure the disease. If we don't actually work on a diplomatic, don't get information on who the Caradysh are and what they're doing, our people are going to continue believe they're the ultimate evil and the clamours for war will return, damaging our civilisation with pointless belligerence.

More warriors won't give us information on the Caradysh. More walls won't make our people clamour less for war. Sometimes the best way to prevent a war is diplomacy and this is a perfect example. Discrediting diplomacy as a viable method of keeping two peer powers from tearing each other apart is not wisdom.

Also your plan doesn't address our Subordinate issue, which also has the capacity to cause major problems if left unaddressed.

 

[JowKeen]

We don't know jack shit about what he's been doing other than doing a lot of Study Magic, and he doesn't call himself the Everevil. So far, all his actions don't seem to have been any worse than any other lowlander warlord. He's conquered, warred, and slaughtered, but that's what lowlander warlords do. He's also been more amenable to peace and diplomacy with us than other lowlander warlords which is a point in his favour.


Gotta send those Diplomatic Outreaches to get information. Not gonna get it by building up walls and armies, and we have other problems to deal with as well.

Click to shrink...

you are incorrect. The formation of Caradysh by Urth the Ever Evil is the same in both this Redux and the foundational quest to this one. Lots of blood, corpses, curses, suffering, slaving, rituals and war waged. Urth is, was, self titled The Ever Evil because it amused Urth.

the upside to the lowlander warlords is that they die. Their foolish barbarian lives are short and chaotic as their goddess wills. Urth is not that. Urth persisted, cursing an enemy of his to perpetual life knowing they would suffer the longer for it. Urth struck us, forced our Boar-slayer Goddess away from her campaign and attempted to strike her with foul magics that broke upon her divine form, allowing her to smash his skull to dust as is the only fate Urth deserves.

You see, the Arthwydish have always been brutal and asymmetric in their warfare. We have always pursued and crushed anything that runs afoul of us. Urth is the exception. Unlike the briefly lived lowlander warlords and the Forluc and the Boarfolk who cannot be held to account for the actions of their predecessors, Urth is literally The Ever Evil. No settlement of the grudges in death. No accounting for his evils during his unlife. It is not the Caradysh that we hate, it is Urth, who branded Caradysh his own.

The problem we have with Urth over the other lowlanders is that he still lives and acts. If the others had not died and still ruled in their brutal and savage and cruel ways we would take issue with them too. They do not live though. Urth does, and that's really the problem with Urth

 

[Andres]

@Oshha, what do we know about Urth in this quest?

 

[Illusion of Eris]

Who said we are doing appeasement? No, seriously, where? We are not ignoring a hostile polity, our argument is that engaging in a devastating war against a polity that isn't interested in harming us is idiotic.


[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Priestess Elyna of Greenbay. (Excellent Admin, ???)

Give us the Admin, we need more infrastructure!

[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Glory+Glory)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture->Glory)

Andres has already gone over most of the reasons for this, but if we want to make any reasonable choices, we need more info. And we won't get that info by just feeding into the cultural paranoia of our civ. We need to actually investigate.

 

[JowKeen]

That is unlikely in so many ways. But mostly in that even if Zaranna was able to make a hero of theirs defeat Urth, they couldn't instruct this hero into successfully taking over Urth's empire, because Zaranna is a goddess of chaos. The whole thing would likely collapse on them as the rest of the Caradysh decided to murder the hell out of the interloper by hook or by crook.

Click to shrink...

Zaranna doesn't have to instruct the Mystic Hero to take over, because Urth's machinations were all "atheistic" magics. If his notes were thorough and the hero was able to achieve undeath, they would have plenty of time to take control of the many corpses and workshops of Urth in the thousand+ years it has been since that Hero (and the rebellion she led) occurred.

The real question is how Zaranna has changed since a divine champion of hers has become undead and also has been active for over a thousand years
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to push for
[X] [Cadlon] Cateye Eyra of Stripped Leaves. (Excellent Mystic, ???)

she is an excellent middle ground between Critical of the Peace and Supportive of Unpopular Decisions. I think she would be good to put in place during examination of Caradysh as a Mystic and a Cateye, I think she would be good to have in place while building many temples, and I think she will be good at folding the "civilized" lessons of Cernn (such as a Divine Militia Order) into the broader culture.

Admin continues to not address the friction properly just sort of, bread and circusing and hoping people get used to peace with the Ever Evil

Martial is sort of, begging for war

I believe Mystic will be able to ameliorate the people's worries if Urth is truly defeated, or support a Holy War innovation should Urth still be in control

 

[Illusion of Eris]

Where are you getting this whole hero of Zaranna thing from? I certainly don't remember anything about this. Got any in story support for this belief?

 

[JowKeen]

Where are you getting this whole hero of Zaranna thing from? I certainly don't remember anything about this. Got any in story support for this belief?

Click to shrink...

Morgynys was a Mystic Hero who lead a Zarannan rebellion in the lowlands against us, and she ultimately fled into the Forest of Urth the Ever Evil and was never heard from again. It is how the lowlands became dominantly Arthwynnite. Sure, they rebelled again later but that was somewhat inevitable with Zaranna being chaotic and we being a religion of Orderly Things. Ah well.

 

[HanEmpire]

[X] [Metal] Yes, they send an expedition into both the Sunrise Mountains and the Sunset Mountains. (Temp Econ--, ???)
[X] [Cadlon] Cateye Eyra of Stripped Leaves. (Excellent Mystic, ???)

[X] [MAIN] Study Magic.
[X] [MAIN] Study Magic. x2
[X] [SEC] Study Magic.

We shouldn't go to war with the Caradysh until we can match their magic with magic. We've left this stat alone for far too long.

EDIT: I'll also approval vote for learning Megaprojects.
[X] [MAIN] Academy
[X] [MAIN] Library
[X] [SEC] Academy
[X] [SEC] Library

 

[Donkey Hote]

The point of Venerate the Goddesses was to mollify our people long enough to hammer out a long-term peaceful resolution to the current diplomatic situation with the Caradysh. It's dealing with the symptoms so that we have room to cure the disease. If we don't actually work on a diplomatic, don't get information on who the Caradysh are and what they're doing, our people are going to continue believe they're the ultimate evil and the clamours for war will return, damaging our civilisation with pointless belligerence.

More warriors won't give us information on the Caradysh. More walls won't make our people clamour less for war. Sometimes the best way to prevent a war is diplomacy and this is a perfect example. Discrediting diplomacy as a viable method of keeping two peer powers from tearing each other apart is not wisdom.

Also your plan doesn't address our Subordinate issue, which also has the capacity to cause major problems if left unaddressed.

Click to shrink...

Bread and circuses with no substance.

Ignore the people's concern about the lack of walls around their homes! Ignore the people's concerns about how their few defenders may fail to stop attackers short of their homes should the enemy come to us! Ignore how this makes the best defense look like a good offense! Appeasement is the path forward, the people's concerns are worthless!

 

[Themarineguy]

Ignore the people's concern about the lack of walls around their homes! Ignore the people's concerns about how their few defenders may fail to stop attackers short of their homes should the enemy come to us! Ignore how this makes the best defense look like a good offense! Appeasement is the path forward, the people's concerns are worthless!

Click to shrink...

...

Provinces: [MAIN] More Farming,
Merntir: More Walls & More Warriors.
Maradysh: More Walls & More Warriors.
Caermyr: More Warriors.
Grythwyd: More Walls & More Warriors.
Raradysh: More Food.
Zaradysh: More Food.
Tordysh: More Food.
Cernn: More Food & More Warriors.
Lorvysh: More Food.
Forluc: More Walls & More Farming.
Forden: More Walls & More Farming.

Click to shrink...

There are stuff going on in the background. On the other hand, there is a point about how we are not directly working to help prep for at least a theoretical war...
We might want to do something to show we are taking it seriously, whenever it is research, recruitment, or building a wall or two...

 

[JowKeen]

the current situation is emphatically not a diplomatic snafu it's a cultural clash against leadership. Leadership decided to not do something inherently simple and righteous (Urth Delende Est) and the culture is having a hard time reconciling the peace with. You know. Urth Delende Est.

We don't have cultural control. We can bread and circus but our priesthood wants war too and will say as much in their circuses. The only way to culturally and/or religiously prove that we should be at peace with Caradysh is proving that Urth is defeated and gone from that place.

 

[UwU]

Yet with this new discovery that swiftly made its way around the Arthwydish lands, the Arthwyd Empire could now consistently make bronze with copper and tin, two metals that the Arthwyd Empire did not lack for.

Click to shrink...

That's... honestly kind of insane. Like, mindboggling, really.

 

[Donkey Hote]

Also, our passives built walls instead of the temples the Infrastructure passives usually build

Click to shrink...

Why would they ever do that??? It's so mysterious!

/s Since it wasn't obvious the first time.

 

[Andres]

Admin continues to not address the friction properly just sort of, bread and circusing and hoping people get used to peace with the Ever Evil

Click to shrink...

Second, using Venerate the Goddesses wouldn't be the Cadlon or priesthood trying to educate or eliminate dissenters, it would be more bread and circuses to distract the populace from their worries. In this case, pushing worship and faith in Arthryn and her Daughters to keep them from worrying about how those evil undead abominations have enslaved all of those poor, poor lowlander barbarians.

Click to shrink...

The Diplomatic Outreaches aren'tbread and circuses, it's directly solving both those incorrect beliefs. The Outreach to the Caradysh lets our people find out that they aren't evil monsters, but instead people. The Outreach to the Fornn lets them find out that they aren't enslaved and oppressed by a malevolent force, they're just normal vassals, possibly better treated than they would be as vassals of other non-Arthwyd humans.

There is a Venerate in the plan and that is bread and circuses, but that's to quell any outrage while we tackle the root of the issue with Diplomatic Outreach. This isn't a bandaid, this is a solid and cohesive plan to make a long-term solution.

Appeasement is the path forward, the people's concerns are worthless!

Click to shrink...

Our people's concerns aren't mainly about defence (though that is there); their actual prevailing desire is to wage an unprovoked war against a civilisation for crimes they very likely aren't committing. It's hypocritical to call diplomacy "the path of appeasement" while you advocate to cater to the outraged belligerents who want a giant pointless war.

EDIT:

We shouldn't go to war with the Caradysh until we can match their magic with magic. We've left this stat alone for far too long.

Click to shrink...

We shouldn't go to war with the Caradysh at all. There is no possibility for war with them to be better for us than peace with them.

 

[Donkey Hote]

Who said we are doing appeasement? No, seriously, where? We are not ignoring a hostile polity, our argument is that engaging in a devastating war against a polity that isn't interested in harming us is idiotic.

Click to shrink...

It's hypocritical to call diplomacy "the path of appeasement" while you advocate to cater to the outraged belligerents who want a giant pointless war.

Click to shrink...

It's not about doing diplomacy at all. It's the complete lack of any action to change to balance of forces that narratively motivated accepting the status quo in the lowlands coupled with diplomacy that amounts to appeasement.

 

[JowKeen]

The Diplomatic Outreaches aren'tbread and circuses, it's directly solving both those incorrect beliefs. The Outreach to the Caradysh lets our people find out that they aren't evil monsters, but instead people. The Outreach to the Fornn lets them find out that they aren't enslaved and oppressed by a malevolent force, they're just normal vassals, possibly better treated than they would be as vassals of other non-Arthwyd humans.

There is a Venerate in the plan and that is bread and circuses, but that's to quell any outrage while we tackle the root of the issue with Diplomatic Outreach. This isn't a bandaid, this is a solid and cohesive plan to make a long-term solution.


Our people's concerns aren't mainly about defence (though that is there); their actual prevailing desire is to wage an unprovoked war against a civilisation for crimes they very likely aren't committing. It's hypocritical to call diplomacy "the path of appeasement" while you advocate to cater to the outraged belligerents who want a giant pointless war.

Click to shrink...

Urth was literally the only personality in the whole of Caradysh last we checked, the various subcommanders were not fully sapient. Reaching out and finding undead monsters and bastions built that we once fought and burned and died in, seeing any of our dead animate and slaving mindlessly.
Yeah okay. Diplomacy will definitely convince people a world and a half away that that's just people not monsters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are the measure of "what is vassalage in a civilized society" and I don't expect Caradysh to match how we treat them. Well for barbarians? I would assume so, because barbarians did not survive the winter without extra-barbarism. Urth was much better positioned than them, and much more sophisticated.

you're also expecting, I duno, the central authority to be able to reinforce the idea that the Caradysh (that body snatched as one of their powers last time) totally aren't evil despite thousands of years of cultural belief to the contrary. Vigorously, to the contrary. You expect a few more reigns of diplomacy and attempting to convince people that things are different is actually going to work without a Mystical, Religious certification that Urth is, in fact, definitely dead.

There is a very good reason to be paranoid of Caradysh, and it is that the thread before Redux the peace we held earned us an assassination and body-snatching and brutal civil unrest as a puppetted Cadlon fought us tooth and nail. Now, maybe we shouldn't hold that against ol Urth the Ever Evil since it's a different timeline.

But, there's still the entire thousands of years of death and blood before that point that still did prologue this timeline. Urth must permanently cease for there to be peace with Caradysh. If that has already happened, great, it's a rebel dedicated to a chaotic light goddess with hundreds of thousands of undead thralls at her command. Significantly better than Urth the Ever Evil yes, but still a problem. Just, a problem that can be diplomacied

 

[Andres]

Urth was literally the only personality in the whole of Caradysh last we checked, the various subcommanders were not fully sapient. Reaching out and finding undead monsters and bastions built that we once fought and burned and died in, seeing any of our dead animate and slaving mindlessly.
Yeah okay. Diplomacy will definitely convince people a world and a half away that that's just people not monsters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are the measure of "what is vassalage in a civilized society" and I don't expect Caradysh to match how we treat them. Well for barbarians? I would assume so, because barbarians did not survive the winter without extra-barbarism. Urth was much better positioned than them, and much more sophisticated.

you're also expecting, I duno, the central authority to be able to reinforce the idea that the Caradysh (that body snatched as one of their powers last time) totally aren't evil despite thousands of years of cultural belief to the contrary. Vigorously, to the contrary. You expect a few more reigns of diplomacy and attempting to convince people that things are different is actually going to work without a Mystical, Religious certification that Urth is, in fact, definitely dead.

Click to shrink...

We need more information. We get information through Diplomatic Outreach. There's no way around it; we're not going to get information through building walls and training warriors.

 

[JowKeen]

We need more information. We get information through Diplomatic Outreach. There's no way around it; we're not going to get information through building walls and training warriors.

Click to shrink...

I have not voted against diplo outreach, and support the idea. I do not support the idea that the Admin cadlon is going to be significantly better at navigating the current legitimacy crises as a Mystic or just straight up going to war and folding in the barbaric Cernn ideas around warfare

 

[argenten]

I have to agree, even if somehow Urth *is* gone that doesn't mean that wall building is inherently a bad thing either as that just means that the biggest evil is gone, not that the Caradysh leaders might not decide war isn't a viable option later. Of course, that also doesn't mean they *will* by any means but we've talked about getting walls built around our settlements for awhile now iirc since the boar horde came barreling through, this just helps that wall building act as soothing the people's fears about the big evil while we see if he's still around and if peace is possible.

We need information first and foremost, however we get it, but we also need to prepare for peace and war rather than assume one way or another. We can always shift our forces elsewhere if it proves they aren't needed on the Caradysh border and the walls are good sense anyway imo to protect against raiders and monsters and the like, so I personally am not seeing the issue in hoping for peace but preparing for war.

 

[Andres]

I have not voted against diplo outreach, and support the idea. I do not support the idea that the Admin cadlon is going to be significantly better at navigating the current legitimacy crises as a Mystic or just straight up going to war and folding in the barbaric Cernn ideas around warfare

Click to shrink...

Excellent Mystic means they're good at the magical and scientific, while Excellent Admin is good for managing systems of people and enacting policies. Excellent Admin is more suited to our current state, especially with regards to our Subordinate issue. An Excellent Admin will minimise the chance of something going wrong for the two turns it'll take to get back in the Prestige safety zone in addition to managing the civilisation's efforts. Extra magical and scientific knowledge won't help us with our current issues.