The cold had gotten so severe that little grew on its own these days and pretty much every harvest either failed or was poor. The only exception were the Arthwyd and the Forluc and even that was only because those two ancient people used divine magic to aid their harvests against the cold.
It's not a complete lack of harvest in all places. In a lot of areas it's simply poor harvests, and that includes within the Arthwyd, so sheer manpower would give us a bit of temp econ. However, the amount of temp econ we're getting from such a gigantic amount of refugees pales to the amount we'd get from the same number of refugees if there wasn't a little ice age going on.
Outside of the Forluc and Arthwyd good or even average harvests are essentially nonexistent and the update doesn't say that it is mostly poor harvests either it implies a decently even split. The only reason we can somewhat carry on as normal is magic. Therefore the limiting factor is not how many people we can throw into the fields but the amount of magic that we can perform and specifically divine magic at that. Even if poor means "just barely enough to feed everyone" as opposed to "need to dip into our reserve to make up the difference" you are understating how bad things likely are.
 
[X] [War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
[X] [Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
[X] [Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.
 
Last edited:
War seems to be the main question here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[] [War] They learn that they need a way to counter the cavalry of the Boarfolk in a proper battle.
Alright, people think this will lead to formation fighting. I'm not certain of that. Frankly, cavalry is best countered with clever maneuvering to deny their freedom of movement. Second best is static defenses, large honking posts and ditches like at Agincourt. Third best is having horse-killing weaponry. This is either ranged options that cripple or kill the mount (something that is way easier against horses than Boar), or Great Weapons that carve large wounds into the things.

I would thus rate the likely innovations to be "Military Technology - Theory - Battle Planning" or "Military Technology - Weapon - Boar Weapons (two handed Great Weapons)". I think the posts and preparing of static defenses is something that can be rolled up with the ground surveying and general Battle Planning. Boar Weapons are things that you just, don't currently need against mundane human forces. You do need them to stop Boars though

I don't mind this one winning, but we already have Spears and Shield Wall as technologies. I would consider either of these other two ideas worthy, but formation combat? Nah, we have Shield Wall already. Shield Wall is dominant until Pikes, and even then that style of military is a very different animal. To the degree I'd consider the social complexities required to be out of reach of basically any known faction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[X] [War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
This is my vote. By far, this is the most impactful thing that can be done.

We have only two Holy Orders for our military. This is making a third, which is an increase of 50%

Did anybody catch the bit about out three vassals of only "High" loyalty deciding not to send warriors to the cause in case they are invaded? They're not wrong, and this option admits that there is a need for dedicated Guardians of each settlement. By designating a specific Holy Order as the one that stays at home, we undermine the ability of future vassals to try to keep their Cateyes, Catclaws, and other future offensive Orders from being of use to the Empire because they will have their own defensive forces available.

A dedicated patrol and guarding unit of Arthwryn faith will be very useful as extra hands in the increasing density of our settlements. Sometimes settlement governments will need things to get done internally for the betterment of the settlement. Right now, we're asking every settlement to work really hard at integrating a massive and endless tide of Refugees and increasing the amount of available holy soldiery by 50% for all of them should help out a lot.

Not only is it a proportionally massive expansion of military, it is also a theological and governmental expansion because all three are intertwined for us. Guards go on patrols. You have a message that needs to get to where you know they are heading next. You ask them if they can carry the message for you, or if you can tag along for safety, and communication starts improving alongside the defense.

The consistent circulation of information and people that regular patrols and guard-routes brings to settlements is incredibly valuable. Not to mention the expanded muscle available to individual settlements (and their administrators). Not to mention the expanded clergy available for magical and spiritual aid (and integration). Not to mention the ability to have a standardized set of individuals that newcomers tp settlements can recognize and consult/ask for directions, information and or assistance. An Order that protects the home front and, as part of their duties, explicitly assists in the organizing and handling of refugees/strangers for their settlement (and by extension the Empire as a whole). Hell yes. Sign me up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think that we'll certainly be getting some innovations from the floods of Refugees coming in, and being forced to figure out how to integrate them into Arthwryn society. Gaining a Holy Pilgrimage tenet for our faith would be excellent, because it helps retain the centralizing force of our religion and reinforce central dogma and share far flung innovations with the greater whole. To come and affirm your faith in Greenbay, and provide knowledge of your holding in turn to the central administrators in Greenbay, is the blessed union of the Refugee and the Refuge. To bring home to the homeless. To provide food to the hungry. To give, and learn, and be learned from. Hard, but stronger for it.

Yes. A Pilgrimage tenet would also synergize with our Holy Travelways infrastructure first blessed with the Sunrise Pass. Excellent stuff.
 
Because this might not be the last Ice Age turn and if it comes down to it, I'd prefer to remain capable of feeding the hungry over ensuring harmony and enforcing Arthwydish culture on the newcomers. We can (hopefully) handle the internal discontent and tolerate these newcomers(and their strange ways).
We have -11 temp econ damage so half the time we won't take any damage at all. The absolute worst case scenario is we take 9 temp econ damage, which is a very good distance away from dangerous given that we have 21 temp econ and we're gonna get 4 more from the refugees. We're fine on food. Stability is the only real danger to us. Let's hope the Forluc win so we don't have to spend more actions fighting Kashkan.
 
I mean, I'd be happy to settle for viking shieldwall and hedgehog formation (which worked pretty well against cav too when they didn't have it on their own) by combining the line push of a shieldwall with the Heavy Infantry of the Huskarls to break and disrupt the enemy formation for the shieldwall to push again when the Huskarls got tired, with cav either flanking or rear attacking or combining with the Huskarl charge for shatterpoint.

Something like that would work well for us I think especially with the blessings.
There is one thing that would be scarier. Pike and shot bow edition. Our strength boost means that it would be very rare for any group to be able to outrange us, and the spear wall would would protect the archers as they reap their harvest, and honestly, would make for a scary force...
I would thus rate the likely innovations to be "Military Technology - Theory - Battle Planning" or "Military Technology - Weapon - Boar Weapons (two handed Great Weapons)". I think the posts and preparing of static defenses is something that can be rolled up with the ground surveying and general Battle Planning. Boar Weapons are things that you just, don't currently need against mundane human forces. You do need them to stop Boars though

I don't mind this one winning, but we already have Spears and Shield Wall as technologies. I would consider either of these other two ideas worthy, but formation combat? Nah, we have Shield Wall already. Shield Wall is dominant until Pikes, and even then that style of military is a very different animal. To the degree I'd consider the social complexities required to be out of reach of basically any known faction.
The big issue is how our forces go about fighting, and while we do have shield wall and spears, our forces simply don't seem use formations much, and a bunch of spears in position is actually great. A group of spears in formation is very deadly against a charge, though they aren't as good against heavy armor, hence the invention of the Halberd.
 
[X] [War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
This is my vote. By far, this is the most impactful thing that can be done.

We have only two Holy Orders for our military. This is making a third, which is an increase of 50%
I'm pretty sure this is militia rather than another holy order, and militias would do bad things to our culture. Making the Arthwyd's culture more martial would cause bigger problems than any it could hope to solve. We can, will, and are improving our military without doing that. Increased militarism is a deleterious temptation that we must resist.
 
There is one thing that would be scarier. Pike and shot bow edition. Our strength boost means that it would be very rare for any group to be able to outrange us, and the spear wall would would protect the archers as they reap their harvest, and honestly, would make for a scary force...

The big issue is how our forces go about fighting, and while we do have shield wall and spears, our forces simply don't seem use formations much, and a bunch of spears in position is actually great. A group of spears in formation is very deadly against a charge, though they aren't as good against heavy armor, hence the invention of the Halberd.
We don't use formations because formations are wrong to use when you have the ability to dodge open conflict by being self-sufficient warrior bands fighting a brutal asymmetric war against their vulnerable and weakest. Also- Spearwall is devastating if your spears can survive it reasonably. And you don't expect your line to survive. And the enemy isn't using a sturdier quadruped than "oops I sprained my ankle guess I'm dead" horses. Like I duno. One of the stoutest quadruped species to have ever developed, enhanced by divine magic.
Boars.
I'm saying that normal spears don't do the trick against our world's Boars and we developed Boar Spears specifically for the suckers.

These are bigger, stronger, tougher, and divine. Spear formations sound like a bad plan compared to, you know, denying good engagement paths for the cav and/or digging trenches and/or placing stakes. Like. These things literally break down full blown Pallisades. A Spearwall is a suicide mission, even if it bleeds the boar to death a few hours later.

If the "innovation" is "do the thing we know how to do, but this time it works" I'll eat a hat. Not my hat of course, but you know. I'll find one.

The innovation should be Boar Spears great weapon type stuff. Like, halberds were made for killing cavalry in close quarters quickly as opposed to sticking it with a spear and having it flail as it dies. Behead the horse and it stops ravaging the line with it's death spasms. The spike on the back is for armor piercing, and the spike on top is for traditional "pike" line warfare. Which is, itself, an anti-infantry technique built to beat Shield Walls (and it is technically effective against cavalry, but I have my doubts that it'd hold up to a Boar charge). They're a multi-tool, not just a "they were made for AP damage" like in certain video games.

Either that, or Battle Planning. Battle Planning is even more effective against cavalry than spears or pikes or halberds. A couple ditches, a few well placed posts, good terrain and strong initiative can make the enemy cavalry the panicky bunch of dumb animals that they are, rather than the well trained and furious balls of muscle and death that they also are. It's like, why would you want to plan for a charge that bulldozes prepared and built pallisades when instead you could. You know. Deny the charge from them?

I'm pretty sure this is militia rather than another holy order, and militias would do bad things to our culture. Making the Arthwyd's culture more martial would cause bigger problems than any it could hope to solve. We can, will, and are improving our military without doing that. Increased militarism is a deleterious temptation that we must resist.
No way this is militias. We have Holy Warriors civilization perk. All of our military is organized through the clergy. This is a Holy Order @Oshha right? Not "suddenly let's let random civilians take up arms"
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure this is militia rather than another holy order, and militias would do bad things to our culture. Making the Arthwyd's culture more martial would cause bigger problems than any it could hope to solve. We can, will, and are improving our military without doing that. Increased militarism is a deleterious temptation that we must resist.
...I actually suspect it would be a holy order that would fill the role of militia, albeit being better trained. Arthwyd does not seem the sort form a militia without a really good reason to, as doing such would open ways to bleed the nation dry.
No way this is militias. We have Holy Warriors civilization perk. All of our military is organized through the clergy. This is a Holy Order @Oshha right? Not "suddenly let's let random civilians take up arms"
Edit: :ninja: Cateyed

These are bigger, stronger, tougher, and divine. Spear formations sound like a bad plan compared to, you know, denying good engagement paths for the cav and/or digging trenches and/or placing stakes. Like. These things literally break down full blown Pallisades. A Spearwall is a suicide mission, even if it bleeds the boar to death a few hours later.
....Stakes may not be that useful, and honestly am not sure how it could be handled besides simply making some nasty war bows to kill them before they get to the group... And honestly I think the Arthwyd commanders handled things quite well this war, by doing what they do best. Though it once again goes back to the fact we simply don't really have much in the way of direct fighting...
 
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 111 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 2759-2803]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: Haven

[X][Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
No. of Votes: 10

[X][Haven] They accept a handful of the refugees. (Small chance of stability loss, +0 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][Haven] They accept many of the refugees. (-1 Stability, -1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, +1 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][Haven] They accept some of the refugees. (Large chance of stability loss, +1 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
No. of Votes: 1



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Ice

[X][Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.
No. of Votes: 9

[X][Ice] They focus on finishing off their foes.
No. of Votes: 2

[X][Ice] They focus on producing more food.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Qeqre



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: War

[X][War] They learn that they need a way to counter the cavalry of the Boarfolk in a proper battle.
No. of Votes: 8

[X][War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
No. of Votes: 3


Total No. of Voters: 12
 
We have -11 temp econ damage so half the time we won't take any damage at all. The absolute worst case scenario is we take 9 temp econ damage, which is a very good distance away from dangerous given that we have 21 temp econ and we're gonna get 4 more from the refugees. We're fine on food. Stability is the only real danger to us. Let's hope the Forluc win so we don't have to spend more actions fighting Kashkan.
The absolute worst case would be the Ice Age getting worse. Which the "more food" and "solve with magic" factions are concerned about.

Negative Stability would cause general unrest and discontent, but we have high Legitimacy, so I'd place it more under "crisis that stresses our civ and may force adaptation" than "immediate existential threat."
We don't use formations because formations are wrong to use when you have the ability to dodge open conflict by being self-sufficient warrior bands fighting a brutal asymmetric war against their vulnerable and weakest. Also- Spearwall is devastating if your spears can survive it reasonably. And you don't expect your line to survive. And the enemy isn't using a sturdier quadruped than "oops I sprained my ankle guess I'm dead" horses. Like I duno. One of the stoutest quadruped species to have ever developed, enhanced by divine magic.
Boars.
I'm saying that normal spears don't do the trick against our world's Boars and we developed Boar Spears specifically for the suckers.

These are bigger, stronger, tougher, and divine. Spear formations sound like a bad plan compared to, you know, denying good engagement paths for the cav and/or digging trenches and/or placing stakes. Like. These things literally break down full blown Pallisades. A Spearwall is a suicide mission, even if it bleeds the boar to death a few hours later.
Some of these Boars can also fly and breathe fire. Which further complicates things.

Whatever the solution ends up being, the important thing is that we periodically update our military.
 
...I actually suspect it would be a holy order that would fill the role of militia, albeit being better trained. Arthwyd does not seem the sort form a militia without a really good reason to, as doing such would open ways to bleed the nation dry.

Edit: :ninja: Cateyed


....Stakes may not be that useful, and honestly am not sure how it could be handled besides simply making some nasty war bows to kill them before they get to the group... And honestly I think the Arthwyd commanders handled things quite well this war, by doing what they do best. Though it once again goes back to the fact we simply don't really have much in the way of direct fighting...
why directly fight at all? The only reason direct combat became dominant was morale, loyalty and logistics issues. Our holy warriors do not have morale and loyalty issues, and our specific brand of self sufficiency voids the logistics issue in most scenarios. What is the enemy death ball gonna do? Fight us at the holy stone walls? Good luck. We're quite a distance from proper explosives, our divine stone is noted to be at parity with certain metals, and our pantheon (and our Mystic) is incredibly incredibly powerful if they want to use magic.

Like. What are we protecting out there, really. If there is something worth protecting, we should wall it. If we make enough farms within walls, we don't even need to protect outlying farms outside of rear-guard for evacuations to the self sufficient walled settlements.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually. I like the idea of Boar Bows or "Boar Shooters". Should deal with the flying and fire-breathing kind too. Hopefully it'll be that kind of ranged weapon if the weapon vote wins
 
Last edited:
The absolute worst case would be the Ice Age getting worse. Which the "more food" and "solve with magic" factions are concerned about.

Negative Stability would cause general unrest and discontent, but we have high Legitimacy, so I'd place it more under "crisis that stresses our civ and may force adaptation" than "immediate existential threat."
Negative stability is something that'd eat away at our civilisation and something that'd greatly endanger it if the ice age persists and especially if it gets worse. It's something we have to solve early while our food stocks are high, econ damage isn't unbearable, and we have the space to solve it. Large numbers of scared, angry, frustrated, and belligerent people will worsen our civilisation's culture and health and make it less secure than going a single turn without getting food while we still have very big stockpiles.
 
Negative stability is something that'd eat away at our civilisation and something that'd greatly endanger it if the ice age persists and especially if it gets worse. It's something we have to solve early while our food stocks are high, econ damage isn't unbearable, and we have the space to solve it. Large numbers of scared, angry, frustrated, and belligerent people will worsen our civilisation's culture and health and make it less secure than going a single turn without getting food while we still have very big stockpiles.
Multiculturalism might stress certain aspects of traditional Arthwydish culture, but that does not necessarily make the process of learning to tolerate people with conflicting beliefs unhealthy.
 
Multiculturalism might stress certain aspects of traditional Arthwydish culture, but that does not necessarily make the process of learning to tolerate people with conflicting beliefs unhealthy.
The process of learning to tolerate others will be unhealthy if we don't actually undertake that process, which is what's being voted on. Bringing in the refugees but doing nothing but the no-action minimum to integrate them will hurt us now and put us in a continuously worsening situation until we deal with it.
 
The process of learning to tolerate others will be unhealthy if we don't actually undertake that process, which is what's being voted on. Bringing in the refugees but doing nothing but the no-action minimum to integrate them will hurt us now and put us in a continuously worsening situation until we deal with it.
The vote to integrate the refugees is a Venerate action.

That's not about learning to tolerate. That is about teaching them our values so there's less societal stress to begin with.
 
to be fair, we're not here to understand other people's beliefs. We're doing that out of kindness and volition. This is one of those periods where, culturally, only a few cultures survive and the rest are unfit. Selected out by beeg snow

thankfully for them, we integrate refugees all the time constantly. So really, if they have viable parts of their culture that won't create a Maradysh situation, they'll be folded into our collective in a way that retains identity for them. Like the All Seeress being adopted by the mother.

If they have cultural adaptations that don't jive with our culture . . . well. Our culture is saving their ass. So their culture should adopt at least some of the responsibility and stewardship/administration ideas. So that they won't starve and end up causing friction when we save them. Again.

Nah. If the Ice Age gets worse we're going to end up not just being King of the Hill, we're going to functionally be the cultural "winners" of the region. Like. Other cultures will still exist in our area, but with a begrudging acknowledgement that our culture is the one that literally saved everyone's asses. Honestly, wouldn't mind making some Stone Recordings along those lines so that later liars can confront their ancestors face to face about it.
 
[X] [War] They learn that they need a way to counter the cavalry of the Boarfolk in a proper battle.
[X] [Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
[X] [Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.
 
[X] [War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
[X] [Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
[X] [Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.

Our entire force are Hunter/Skirmisher elites at present. We need line infantry more than anything else, or we'd fold the moment we can't trade space for blood.
 
[X] [War] They learn that they need a way to counter the cavalry of the Boarfolk in a proper battle.
[X] [Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
[X] [Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.
 
Fair enough.

It was also said that the whole point of the option is to counteract the stability loss we'd get from accepting the refugees. In other words: minimizing societal stress.
Attempting to minimise societal stress improves our ability to minimise societal stress more than not making the attempt, and the method by which it minimises it is integrating refugees and making them work in our society well. In short, it is nothing but optimal for dealing with refugees in both the short term and the long term.
 
Last edited:
[X] [War] They learn the importance of having another warriors to properly patrol and guard your walls.
[X] [Haven] They accept all of the refugees. (-3 Stability Loss, -4 Temp Diplo, -3 Temp Mystic +4 Temp Econ next Mid Turn)
[X] [Ice] They focus on integrating the lowlander refugees.
 
Attempting to minimise societal stress improves our ability to minimise societal stress more than not making the attempt, and the method by which it minimises them is integrating refugees and making them work in our society well. In short, it is nothing but optimal for dealing with refugees in both the short term and the long term.
Oh sure, continuous focus on educating the barbarians why our ways are better will probably make us better at making any arriving barbarians realize that our culture is superior to theirs and subsequently make us better at minimizing the stress caused by having barbarians immigrate to our lands. I'm not disputing that.

There's a very clear difference between assimilation and toleration though.
 
Back
Top