At the same time, the innovation roll of SEC Sacred Warriors comes bundled with two extra points of temp martial in case the war parties get slaughtered. We could use those in the Mid or next turn(or for home defense).

MAIN+SEC+SEC War Parties means we risk dropping down 4 temp martial. Minus whatever war parties the Defensive policy shits out and whatever temp damage we end up taking if somebody sends a war party at the Arthwyd core provinces.
5 temp martial; remember, Main War Party gives +1 temp martial. And hell no. Giving the enemy a greater advantage in a war is something that can only hurt us. If we make our advantage smaller, we not only have a higher chance of losing, we also take greater casualties, even if we win. Investing more troops gives us a higher chance of victory and also minimises absolute losses, not just relative losses.

The only scenario in which it generates anything good is very unlikely to happen and ultimately provides little benefit, and planning with that expectation in mind is ruinous and illogical. Its intent is to produce a very small chance of preserving one or two points of temp martial, while also producing a very high chance of hurting us by a minor to a major amount in the short term, which in turn would hurt us in the long term.

In short, your plan is bad. We should invest more warriors now to reduce casualties and be more likely to win the war, not take the road that has a very high chance of doing nothing but increasing casualties and our chances of losing the war.
 
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When news of Kashkan's actions reached the Arthwyd, there was outrage by the northerners. The Cernn might have been barbarians, but they were still part of the Arthwyd Empire and between the Thurezea and the Lochanysh, the Arthwydish were growing fed up with foreign barbarians launching unprovoked attacks the Cernn.
Oh great, we seem to have subjugated Poland into our empire by mistake...
 
[] [SEC/MAIN] Library
S: -4 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, -6 Temp Mystic, +2 Progress
M: -8 Temp Econ, -4 Temp Martial, -12 Temp Mystic, +4 Progress
-Progress: 0/???
Looks like we unlocked the Library.

Oh great, we seem to have subjugated Poland into our empire by mistake...
Actually the Cernn offered vassalage to us entirely unprompted and of their own free will. No subjugation involved at all.
 
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[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X] [SEC] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X] [SEC] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate)
 
[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde) x2

I mean, the other guys aren't going anywhere and are in no shape to launch any assault so I feel safe leaving them for a turn. Meanwhile Kashkan's horde seems far more mobile and far more threatening, I'd prefer we throw our full might against him instead of splitting our attention if for no other reason than to keep him pinned in the south away from our cores.
 
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5 temp martial; remember, Main War Party gives +1 temp martial.
And 5 minus 1 gives us a net drop of 4 temp martial.
And hell no. Giving the enemy a greater advantage in a war is something that can only hurt us. If we make our advantage smaller, we not only have a higher chance of losing, we also take greater casualties, even if we win. Investing more troops gives us a higher chance of victory and also minimises absolute losses, not just relative losses.

The only scenario in which it generates anything good is very unlikely to happen and ultimately provides little benefit, and planning with that expectation in mind is ruinous and very highly illogical. Its intent is to produce a very small chance of preserving one or two points of temp martial, while also producing a very high chance of hurting us by a minor to a major amount in the short term, which in turn would hurt us in the long term.

In short, your plan is bad. We should invest more warriors now to reduce casualties and be more likely to win the war, not take the road that has a very high chance of doing nothing but increasing casualties and our chances of losing the war.
The Arthwyd have a pattern of committing hard in response to attacks. To the point where the Forluc offered to fight our war for us when the Thurezea attacked our Empire.
The Boarfolk have had a high frequency of contact with us for quite some time. Chances are that the Boarfolk - and therefore Kashak's Horde know how we tend to respond.

If by attacking the Cernn, the Arthwyd do follow pattern and commit hard on defending Cernn territory, this leaves the province of Greenbay relatively low on defenders.
It's a very simple strategy which would allow Kashak to utilize the mobility of his own forces and the slow speed of communications to conquer a city that is a far grander prize than some minor Cernnite settlements.

Committing more warriors to the Cernn front now might reduce casualties in battle and produce a chance of preserving one or two points of temp martial if Kashak's horde is neither too strong nor too weak. This is true. And it might win us battles in Cernn lands.
Equally, your plan also leaves us vulnerable on the home front and vulnerable to having the pressure taper off due to a lack of reserves if they manage to get the better of our first wave.

The advantage of an extra SEC Train Sacred Warriors on the other hand is that it guarantees an extra two points of temp martial for if Kashak's Horde endures our initial wave(and removes the risk of losing another temp martial from the SEC War Party) while also giving us an extra innovation roll that can improve our ability to wage war. Net swing of +2/+3 Temp Martial compared to a SEC War Party, even if it means a slightly higher chance of us losing a battle in Cernn lands.

This extra temp martial means we will have larger garrisons in Greenbay province. Garrisons which can then be committed towards another MAIN War Party during the Mid turn without risking our temp martial dropping dangerously low, allowing us to keep up the pressure.

In short, maybe you shouldn't assume that the enemy martial hero is an idiot.
 
And 5 minus 1 gives us a net drop of 4 temp martial.
We're on 9 temp martial. If we do 1 Main+2 Sec, we have 10 temp martial and risk 5 temp martial. That leaves us with 5 temp martial in the absolute worst case scenario where every one of our warriors is destroyed. If you subtract 1 from 5, the number you get is indeed 4, but there is no 1 involved here.

As for what the boarfolk will do, your assessment is based on badly understanding the actors involved and you're adding to that with poor strategic planning.

We have a lot of contact with the boarfolk, but overwhelmingly that is through the Merntir. It has been centuries since there was any real war up there, the closest being when the Merntir wiped out a tribe and we paid reparations. The boarfolk have no familiarity with how we respond to things. They'd know we defend our vassals and that we've won wars in their defence, but would have no details beyond that.

That's all assuming we're dealing with the boarfolk tribes we have lots of contact with, though. There are a bunch of boarfolk tribes we don't talk to at all. If you look at our Civ Sheet, you'll see that we're still Very Friendly with the Boarfolk Nomads, that we're only at War with Kashkan's Horde. The boarfolk who have close contact to us? We're still at peace with them. Kashkan's Horde isn't those boarfolk. They're boarfolk who have no contact with us, who have no familiarity with us whatsoever and subsequently have little to no understanding of the geopolitics of the region. It's pretty damn unlikely they can tell the Cernn apart other than 'lowlanders under that now-dead Martial Hero's command', much less that they're a vassal of ours, and even less that they know what we're willing and able to do in the Cernn's defence.

Kashkan will not make his horde travel hundreds of kilometres over mostly empty ground to attack a civilisation he may not even know rules over the Cernn when he's in the middle of a war against an enemy he's decisively beating.

As for what we keep in reserve, 5 temp martial is still a heavy force that can reliably beat most enemies and at worst stalemate the rest, in which case they buy time for our troops to return and for our vassals to come to our aid. If someone else attacks us while we're fighting the Maradysh and the Horde, we'll be fine. If not, it's a whole bunch of reinforcements we can send to aid the Cernn.

There's absolutely no reason to fear we'll get attacked by a third party though. We're on very friendly relations with the boarfolk we have contact with and extremely friendly relations with the Forluc. On the Forluc, we're getting as many refugees from them as the Cernn, and the Cernn have just been on the losing end of war two turns in a row, which is a pretty good indicator that now's not the best time for the Forluc to be spending resources attacking their most lucrative trade partner who they really like and who hasn't lost a war in recorded history.
 
[X] [Haven] Accept every last refugee and spread them about the Arthwyd Empire. (-1 Stability, -3 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, +3 Temp Econ next Main Turn)
 
We're on 9 temp martial. If we do 1 Main+2 Sec, we have 10 temp martial and risk 5 temp martial. That leaves us with 5 temp martial in the absolute worst case scenario where every one of our warriors is destroyed. If you subtract 1 from 5, the number you get is indeed 4, but there is no 1 involved here.
MAIN+SEC+SEC War Parties means we risk dropping down 4 temp martial. Minus whatever war parties the Defensive policy shits out and whatever temp damage we end up taking if somebody sends a war party at the Arthwyd core provinces.
Indeed, we are on 9 temp Martial.
And if we do MAIN+SEC+SEC War Parties, we gain 1 temp martial and risk 5 temp martial. Which means we risk dropping down 4 temp martial.
I think the issue here is that you might have assumed a "to" to be somewhere it wasn't. I said we'd risk dropping 4 temp martial and clarified that I'm talking net numbers. You have agreed that MAIN+SEC+SEC means we go up 1 temp martial and risk 5, for a potential net drop of 4.
There is no disagreement, just you failing on reading comprehension.

When we re-opened relations with the Boarfolk during the Bounty of Gold update, they already knew much about the Arthwyd as a result of their contact with the Maradysh. They were also noted to be knowledgeable about the Lowlands in general back then.
When we did the expedition to the far East, the Achlanders were able to recognize us as the people who sold the Boarfolk their metal tools, implying that even the eastern reaches of the Boarlands had some level of access to Arthwyd-made goods.
Our two Centers of Trade are Greenbay and Caermyr. The former has a river connection to the latter, the latter sits at the confluence of the Lake river and the Boar river. Presumably, the Boar River(which flows past the Tordysh who were occupied by the Boarfolk at some point in the distant past) leads to Boarfolk tribes that trade with the Arthwyd and the general direction Kashkan's horde seems to have come from.

I'd rather not tempt Murphy by assuming our opponent is ignorant and assuming nothing could possibly go wrong.

That said, ending up at 5 temp martial is not the absolute worst case. The absolute worst case is the one where we also lose the temp martial from any War Parties our Defensive Policy is sending and where we take temp Martial damage from whatever war parties Kashak's Horde might be sending.
The former, which is still not the worst case, risks leaving us with 4 temp martial to spare. And I don't know how hard the latter might hit at this point, even if you want to assert that Kashak must necessarily be ignorant about the shape of the Arthwyd Empire.
But yes, let us hope nobody else decides to attack us.
I wouldn't say that's, entirely, a correct statement.
Being a Charitable Haven that has never known hunger in recorded history during an Ice Age where crops are failing might also tempt the living.
 
Being a Charitable Haven that has never known hunger in recorded history during an Ice Age where crops are failing might also tempt the living.
Fair point but, who?

Our only major neighboring living civ not only likes us but also appears to have this all well in hand.
Taking the fertility magic meant for humans, Gaewyn was able to figure out to do the same for plants like the Forluc could do. While she didn't use the same method as the lowlanders nor were her discoveries as effective as that the Forlucans had refined over generations, Gaewyn was able to make it easier for plants to survive and grow.
The refugees from the Forluc Empire weren't proper Forlucans, but the non-Forlucan lowlanders within the Forluc Empire. The actual Forlucans get fed by the Forluc Empire.
And all the others would have to march through either the Forlucs and/or our vassals in order to reach us. And even then all that food would probably spoil long before they ever get back home to begin with.

Unless some lowlander civ get so beat by the winter that everybody packs up and goes on a Great Journey For Food And Profit And Glory And Possibly Murdering All The Current Peoples To Make Way For Our Own, we shouldn't have to worry about it. Not to mention they'd still have to go through either the Forlucs or our vassals which would by us time.

I suppose the nomads maybe, but I think they're already a moot point with Kashkan.
 
I wouldn't say that's, entirely, a correct statement.
The Caradysh would be going against the will of their suzerain in order to to attack the Arthwyd. If they want to attack the Arthwyd, they would have to fight through 8 walled settlements simply to get to Greenbay, and after they get to Greenbay they likely have to fight more walled settlements on the way to the single most defensible place in the entire known world. And after their inevitable failure of a war, they know they'll get invaded by the Arthwyd who will raze their settlements again, this time with a bigger military, more subordinates, and possibly with help from the Forluc for disobeying their diktats.

This is even assuming the Caradysh know that now is a relatively (and only relatively) good time to strike. We know that they have little contact with their masters, paying tribute on time and such but otherwise staying isolationist. When combined with the fact that the Forluc very evidently have a bunch of troubles of their own, going by refugee counts, I'd guess it's more likely than not that they haven't even heard about the Horde, or at least not yet.

And, of course, the Caradysh may not want to go to war against us at all. For all we know they'd remain at peace even if they knew about the opportunity to attack us and were confident in their ability to beat us.

The Caradysh aren't going to attack us.

Being a Charitable Haven that has never known hunger in recorded history during an Ice Age where crops are failing might also tempt the living.
Being a Charitable Haven with a known history of sending aid upon request who's surrounded by people who love us and who we love in turn may tempt the living to simply ask us for food. Given the choice between asking their beloved neighbour for handouts and going to war against the greatest superpower in the region, spending a bunch of temp econ in the process, I'd say they'd go for the former.
 
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ugh. How frustrating. Continuous mercy gets good people killed. And further every single one of our vassals decided to fuck off from the Maradysh war. I mean, that's what we get for assuming they wouldn't also get a react and their react would be "copy the leadership in greenbay"

[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate)
[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate) x2

Let's not lose our whole army in the open field against boar nomads. One enemy at a time. The people of Cernn which make it here will survive. We cannot save those in the open fields. They do not make stone walls as we do. They are helpless to the onslaught of the boars.

Crush the Maradysh Trirumvirate. How dare they get so many Arthwynites killed, pretending to worship as if they were not Zarannan barbarians in their soul still. Break them. Do not let them recover. Fully commit and ask forgiveness for the suffering we forced the Maradysh Loyalists to go through in their time of need.

We hit the traitors hard. We don't stop punching until there is nothing left, not even anything for the Everevil to Animate. Then we settle it, and hold it so that barbarians cannot threaten our people from our own strongholds. How dare they.

As for the horde . . .

Frankly, the last Horde barely broke halfway through the Sunrise Pass. We should not be fighting a boar-riding horde in the open field. We need to do what we did last time. Asymmetric warfare targeting their logistics. Their supplies. Scorch earth. Poison food. Raid the camp followers. Slaughter any pigs isolated from the sounder.

We need to BREAK the traitor heretics so that we can begin to set up boar-traps.

Fighting within forest last time, we could somewhat be even (but on numbers they ended up still beating us down in the north)
We have since had an extended experience fighting in and around both the lowland rivers and forests, as well as against the Everevil's forests.

Fortifying. Pit trap. Set spikes. Wall off farmland we can protect. Scorch the rest.

The advantage that won us our first war was logistics and long memories, grinding and grinding and grinding the opponent generation after generation until they broke. The All Seer(ess) was thankfully able to be incorporated.

The All-Boar, Zaranna, and the ever evil Urth have refused to incorporate and struck with violence each time we leave them alive. Despite that, the narrative always makes it so that if we don't stop trying to exterminate them our civilization will collapse. The migrants will fuel our expansion. Our expansion will fuel our military. Our military will slaughter their unprotected, their soft and vulnerable. They will starve, they will be poisoned, they will be stuck and bled. More than anything though, they will be crushed.

Let Evelynn Boarslayer revel in the brutalizing of the pig fiends. Hail the Slayer. It is Holy to Rip and Tear until it is Done. As we have done since war first came to us. Hail the Slayer. Hail Evelynn.
 
[X] [MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X] [SEC] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X] [SEC] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate)

Damn, boar hoards are pretty much the worst thing for us, except maybe meteorites, if I remember correctly we won our first boar war by loosing and harrasing the occupying force until they got sick of us and left, they then lied about how strong we were for steppe cred.
 
I take it our Priests/Sacred Warriors can't collaborate to perform stone manipulation magic on a larger scale?
They don't know how to.
@Oshha, is it mandatory to send troops to the Maradysh right now?
Yes, but your province policy will handle it so you don't need to do so directly.
Just a reminder, but each innovation roll only has about an 11% chance of success.
13% chance of success and certain Main actions can improve that chance further.

Is that uhh, still negotiable...


...I feel that this relationship just isn't a very healthy one.
No. The Arthwyd will not just abandon the Cernn because they keep getting unprovoked invasions when the Cernn have been loyal and faithful vassals.
 
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 106 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 2650-2695]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: Haven

[X][Haven] Accept every last refugee and spread them about the Arthwyd Empire. (-1 Stability, -3 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, +3 Temp Econ next Main Turn)
No. of Votes: 3



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SEC

[X][SEC] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate)
No. of Votes: 7

[X][SEC] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
No. of Votes: 5

[X][SEC] Study Magic.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Switch Province Policy = (Offensive)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][SEC] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Qeqre



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN

[X][MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
No. of Votes: 10
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Andres110
[X] argenten
[X] HanEmpire
[X] jamie96969
[X] Kiba
[X] nat_401
[X] Qeqre
[X] UwU
[X] veekie

[X][MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde) x2
No. of Votes: 4
[X] HanEmpire
[X] jamie96969
[X] UwU
[X] veekie

[X][MAIN] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate)
No. of Votes: 1

[X][MAIN] War Party = (Maradysh Triumvirate) x2
No. of Votes: 1


Total No. of Voters: 12
 
[X][MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde)
[X][MAIN] War Party = (Kashkan's Horde) x2

GM said the province policy will handle the Maradysh for us, so we should do Double Main to throw more temp martial for the same number of actions, and to send that temp martial where it's needed most - the Cernn.
 
Fair point but, who?

Our only major neighboring living civ not only likes us but also appears to have this all well in hand.
The Boarfolk also liked us. It still resulted in a Kashkan.

The Lochanysh and Thurezea still don't like us after the previous wars. With perceived weakness being the Thurezea casus belli against the Forluc back in Dragonslaying and Divine Ascensions.

The Raradysh, Tordysh and Zaradysh have constant small-scale rebellions, but Zaranna's core tenets could bump that into a larger one if they sense an opportunity for a stronger future position(even if the Zarannist disregard for the past means they probably don't care much for Cadlon Garth trying to force the Maradysh Zarannist villages to change their ways).

Basically, if other factions smell blood in the water, they might decide to make a play. Which means more blood in the water.

Sure, the Forluc probably won't start anything since the majority of them like trade too much(although even the Forluc still had plenty of people who resented us during Codified Law due to old legends of when they were top dog) and nobody they care about is actually going hungry. Although even they might make a play for Caermyr if we deathspiral too much.
Being a Charitable Haven with a known history of sending aid upon request who's surrounded by people who love us and who we love in turn may tempt the living to simply ask us for food. Given the choice between asking their beloved neighbour for handouts and going to war against the greatest superpower in the region, spending a bunch of temp econ in the process, I'd say they'd go for the former.
We don't have a history of sending anything other than warriors and settlers(and a single case of divine intervention) to those in need. Just a history of allowing everybody who comes to Greenbay to live in the Arthwyd Empire(which has caused a number of older polities to collapse). Case in point our not sending the Cernn resources to rebuild after the Lochanysh war, causing many on the Lochanysh border to just leave for Greenbay, though examples go back as far as our genociding Forfolk culture(at least if you're the sort of person to use the UN definition) when we helped Urth advertise our lands as a place of plenty and made sure to thoroughly integrate the new arrivals to protect against culture warp.

Greatest superpower in the region is an oxymoron. Superpowers are by definition not regional.
At best, one could call us the greatest power in the known world.
 
The Boarfolk also liked us. It still resulted in a Kashkan.

Do note that the Boarfolk are so decentralised that each tribe is effectively their own state. They just get counted together due to shared culture and keeping things simple enough for me to run. Your relations with the Boarfolk Nomads only accurately apply to the tribes that you regularly interact with and are closest to you. The fact that the neighbouring tribes like you a lot doesn't mean that tribes that have never actually met you won't have any issues with attacking you.

Do not think of the nomads as a singular entity and it is foolish to try treat them as such or expect them to act like one.

Basically, if other factions smell blood in the water, they might decide to make a play. Which means more blood in the water.

Less than you might think, at least in your case. The Arthwyd have a history of both winning and fighting until they win. Your neighbours might smell blood in the water, but no one is eager to start a fight to the death with the Arthwyd Empire before they find out whether or not it has truly been declawed.

We don't have a history of sending anything other than warriors and settlers(and a single case of divine intervention) to those in need.

Not true. You once provided with the Fordysh with food when they were facing starvation and the whole point of the Empire passive policy is providing aid and representation to your subordinates. As far as your subordinates have been concerned, you have providing aid since the Empire passive policies were chosen.
 
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